Vintage Appliances, Electrical Load and UL Listing

[launderess]

Was comparing vintage irons and ironers and noticed some drew upwards of 1500 watts or more of power. Many units produced back in the 30's,40's and 50's seem to be on the high end power wise, but this seems like allot of power to run on 15 amp fuses/breakers. Also many are not UL listed so am wonderng about the chances for electrical fires caused by "fried" wiring inside the walls.

Most vintage irons only specify a 15 amp AC circut (guess these were from the days when some homes had DC current?), but always heard it is not wise to pull more more than 80% of rated power in watts. So for a 15 amp circut that would be about 1200 watts.

One reason I love vintage electic irons is they get "hot", compared to today's wimpy offerings. Then again these units pull any where from 1100 to 1400 watts of power. Have even melted/burned through Nomex with one of these babies. Just wondering how "safe" these would have been in the day and was the push to be "UL" listed drove power consumption down to safer levels. Late model Maytag ironers, which were UL listed for instance, only pulled 1300 watts.

Launderess

 

[petek]

Interesting. I don't think it was until the late 50's into the 60's that many houses had much more than 20 amp service then pushed up to 30. Moms 50's bungalow was like that, she finally had to get the service upgraded when the central air was installed. Not only was the amperage low but there were usually few circuits altogether in the house, the only saving grace being that people didn't have that many electrical appliances other than irons, toasters etc that would be using power at the same time and blow the fuse.

 

[kenmore1978]

service

"I don't think it was until the late 50's into the 60's that many houses had much more than 20 amp service then pushed up to 30"

Actually, most homes had at least 30 amp 120 volt service even way back in the beginning. This was very common in the average home until the 40's when 60 and 70 amp 220 volt service became the "norm". From the late 50's onward 100 amp 230 volt service has been the minimum allowed by the NEC code.

 

[kenwashesmonday]

At 120 volts, 15 amps is about 1800 watts (120 X 15 = 1800).
80% of 1800 watts is 1440 watts (1800 X .8 = 1440)
A 1500 watt appliance draws about 12.5 amps at 120 volts, or about 13 amps at 115 volts.

Ken

Launderess wrote:
"Most vintage irons only specify a 15 amp AC circut (guess these were from the days when some homes had DC current?), but always heard it is not wise to pull more more than 80% of rated power in watts. So for a 15 amp circut that would be about 1200 watts."

 

[toggleswitch]

My mom's house was built in 1955. It has 50 amp 110/220v service per apartment in each of the two units. It is a legal two family (i.e. has two electric meters/circuit panels). Cooking , dryer and hot water heater are gas. Heating is oil-fired. Some homes in the area actually have electric dryers with such low amerage service (30a 220v circuit for the dryer.)

NYC apts (where cooking is gas and heat and hot-water is supplied by the landlord) had unil very recently (and maybe even today) 40amp 110/220v service.

My house was built in 1946 and I found in it 50 amps 110/220v service, with 10 circuits.

I now have 200 amp 110/220v service and 35 circuits (I put in the rest myself) another 5 to go in the basement kitchen and I am DONE at the circuit boards maximum of 40 circuits.

[Well, 40 with 1" full-sized breakers. Don't want to do 1/2 inch mini breakers.]

 

[launderess]

Speaking of NYC

Those beautiful huge "pre-war" apartments, condos, co-op's everyone is always drooling over were most always are totally under powered for today's living. Unless upgraded electrically over the years most new buyers find them a chore. Lack of outlets and power to apartments means lots of power strips and a limit on what one can install.

Friend of ours wanted a totally "Euro" kitchen and laundry room, which meant ripping out the fuse box, installing breaker panels/sub panels, and running one or more 220v lines. Electrican showed up and then the fun started. Turned out not enough power came into their apartment for all this stuff (Miele washer/dryer (2), dishwasher, ironer, various ovens/ranges etc), and ConEd would have to run some sort of "wiring" from the street to where the power comes into the building (not sure what this meant), and of course major electrical work in the building/apartment. Co-Op board reviewed the matter and said "no". IIRC they were able to get the fuse box switched out for a panel, and more outlets installed, but was not allowed to increase the amount of power that came into their apartment. Much of this does not make sense to me, but then much of electrics does not make sense to me either.

Another friend wanted a Miele washer so badly, but lived in a rental apartment with a fuse box. She was actually going to hire an electrical to rip out the fuse box, install a panel and the required wiring. Took hours to talk her out of it as such actions would be in violation of her lease, and should anything happen with that new wiring put her under huge liability. She did ask the landlord for permission to change the fuse box under guise of needing more outlets, not sure of the reply, but told her that even if he said "yes", she ought to come clean and not try to sneak at 220v line in there without telling. From our experience with the Pfaff unit, these ironers pull lots of power and if used for long periods of time probably could cause problems for bad wiring.

Launderess

 

[toggleswitch]

"and ConEd would have to run some sort of "wiring" from the street to where the power comes into the building (not sure what this meant), and of course major electrical work in the building/apartment."

They were prolly intimating that the main service TO THE BUILDING was inadequate by today's standards and his/her new panel may have triggered the need to upgrade that main serice to get the amperage wanted/desired/needed.

In a larger building there is a bank (matrix-like) of electric meters that rises up to each aparmtent. Since all six (as an example) stacked apartments have wiring in ONE feeder "tube" (conduit) it is not possible to increase the thickness of the wires generally (to one apt in the column/stack of them) without ripping the whole thing out, or a parallel run.

IIRC the law states that a new circuit breaker panel must replace a fuse-box when new lines and related wiring is done in an individual apt. (i.e. no more NEW fuses allowed.)

In any case, most main service in NYC is underground and very expensive to replace. Those lucky dawgs (with Long Island Accent there, Geoff) that have it above on poles can very inexpensively change it/upgrade it.

Sounds like your friend is STUCK.

 

[kenmore1978]

Miele washer

Was there a washer there before? Just because the old panel is fuses doesn't mean the Miele couldn't use the same circuit as the original washer. If the wiring is #14, she can still put in a time delay fuse in that circuit and still be safe. I've seen more thanone original fuse panel installation that actually had spare circuits that were never used. Out old house had one of these, we wired it with #12 wire, put in a 20 amp fuse, and used it to power part of our remodeled kitchen

 

[toggleswitch]

I think the problem is that the Miele washer is 22Ov

 

[launderess]

Yes, the problem was the new Miele would have been 220v and she only had 115/120 20amp fuses for that particular outlet. Mind you it was the one "isolated" outlet in the kitchen area, but still only 115v/120v.

Electrican told her that since the fuse box was full, and considering the other remodeling jobs, it would be best to upgrade the entire electrical service. Don't even think one can get new fuse boxes put in anyway. Another electrican kept telling them over the phone they could have a sub-panel installed. Imagine!

Stuck" is a pretty good word for the situation, which is why one should think hard and fast about living in a co-op building.

So many apartment buildings in NYC have very old electrical service. Our appliance guy says the 220V requirment is usually the deal breaker for Miele and other Euro units. Even those who can afford to hire an electrican to do the work, find their building won't allow the work to be done.

Trying to add up the wattage off the top of my head:

Miele washers are about 3,000 watts at 15amps on 220v. Dryers and dishwashers near or about the same. Do not know about electric range and oven, but to run several of these appliances at the same time must pull quite a bit of juice. Add to this other basic things such as several ac's, fridge,puters and stuff and that is easy 100 or 200 amp service. Certianly isn't 40 amp service.

Launderess

 

[toggleswitch]

40 amps? HA

If I cant run my electric toothbrush and my electric personal massager at the same time I won't live there.

Period.