Wash habits: how full is your full load?

[3beltwesty]

All the washers available here are typically "larger than one needs", thus using a partially filled machine is quite normal.

As far as waste, the typical usa machine is used 2.5 times per week, ie about 130 times per year. If it lasts 5 years, that is 650 washes.

(1) That is what my machine cost in dollars after taxes. Thus if it dies in 5 years, each wash cost 1 dollar per load in wearout.

(2)Water per load costs me about 15 to 20 cents

(3) soap cost about 5 cents

(4) Electricity costs 2 cents for my new LG and about 3 for my old 1976 machine.

One can weight the cost of special ordering a small 24" machine, or using a Haier 21 and using full loads too.

When one has a job and has costs associated with ones times worth, items (2) to (3) are in the noise, and using the machine more really doesnt not matter either.

For my life; having to wait a month to fill a washer would be wastefull.

One could argue that non USA machines like washers or cars are too big too, since not all pack them full, not all seats are full in busses or cars.

In the USA there is an attitude that we should be able to use our tools like the way we want to, without government rules.

Typically a low capacity 27" FL washer than mine at local stores is an even cheaper model. One googles the model numbers and finds a recall or broken spiders in 2 to 3 years. It is hard to say if it would cost me less to have bought the 349 buck FL washer that was 7/10 the size and cost 6/10 last november.

Running the 27" machine here at 1/4 load really only effects the products life; since its run costs are nil. The water + soap + electricity to run it one month is about 2 to 3 dollars. My cellphone costs 30 times this.

Running a washer always full too means the water level is higher, thus the water seal sees more splashing, the bearings see a higher load too.

 

[hoover1100]

government rules

There is a truly hilarious myth going round that the Government is forcing people in the U.S. to wash in cold water and not enough of it.

It's simply the fact that the average consumer is more interested in an energy saving machine, therefore machines that are more efficient on paper appeal more, sell more units, and energy hogging machines fall out of grace to the point they are no longer financially viable for manufacturers to produce.

That's how 'free market' (there is no such thing as a free market, never has been, never will be) capitalism works, a principle America seems to pride itself on, yet gets all in a fluster about and blames the Government when it dosen't work their way!

I know that it's probably more expensive to buy a smaller machine in the U.S., which would not be feasable, but that isn't the point here, the point is it wastes more energy and water to wash a small load in a bigger machine.

Matt

 

[supremewhirlpol]

I think it's a number of things:

For people who have disposable income, well yes, they get those big expensive things like $114,000 Range Rovers just because they can. While others can barely rub 2 nickel together and they get items like a FL washer out of necessity. I think marketing of the items plays a role too.

I also think it is one's preferences:When it comes to washing machines, I have a number of them. They range from 6LB. to 50LB capacity. I have both 27" and 24" EU style consumer FL's, I also have a 34" wide commercial FL made in Belgium. One of my Preferences is that the machine has to use a REAL amount of water, so Horsey LG had to go. Depending on how much time I have to devote to washing my clothes determines which machines I use. Also for me, there is the price issue. Now I know lots of the UK guys and gals love the Miele washers, and will pay an arm + leg + left eye for one. That's probably why they don't exist in my area, a machine like that with a small capacity is just too expensive. Not everyone can spend gobs of money on washers either. I have never seen a Miele in person.
-Just my point of view.

 

[ronhic]

Roscoe - What machine were you using when you did that test for you may well have been the only person who read what I wrote rather than their own interpretation.....

 

I think many of you may have missed my point....

 

What I want to know does not actually depend on if it is a large washer or a small washer, European or not or even if it has a heater or not....

 

What I am intrigued by is that when you see American machines, they seem half (or less) full, compared to when you see a European machine....so I was wondering how the American machine would fare if it was filled in the same way that a European one would be....that is, FULL, not half full.....

 

People tend to buy larger capacity machines because they 'need' them. Most never use the capacity.

 

It has nothing to do with anything other than if:

 

'I fill the drum to the TOP without forcing items in, will the thing wash the items clean on a standard warm cotton cycle?'

 

It's a simple question really and one that I cannot answer given that there are very very few American made/designed front load machines here....95% or more are European 'style'

 

[3beltwesty]

Matt;

The government here is often about social engineering.

They give a "kick back" as a tax break to washer makers on their washers that use little water; to solar panels even it really has no payoff and is a boondoggle. It really doesnt matter if there is any gain, it is a payback often to fit an agenda.

The LG machine here when pushes the add water button normally is ok for stuff not too dirty. If something is really dirty one should use the prewash too; thus one has a longer wash cycle.

You can be upset that there is waste because my 1976 FL machine uses 30 gallons and 0.22 KW hour, and my LG today uses less but takes takes 75 minutes versus 43 minutes.

Basically the new machine takes longer because is it showering clothes. It farts around too much. The old machine is half done washing while the new machine is trying to shower clothes. The software is designed to fit the government agenda; no water and to hell with somebodies time.

To say washing consumes gobs of electricity is absurd. The 1976 machine takes 0.22 KWhr; about 3 cents. The LG uses even less; about 2 cents or less per load. If I double the loading of the LG to fill it more; I save 1 cent of electricity.

The real annoyance is the newer machine takes more time. This is not a concern for the government, since time is a do not care for them.

As far as cold water; many of us have used cold water for 50 years now. Today it is even easier since soaps are better.

The prime difference here is a 24" machine really is a freak beast in the usa, one mostly I have seen used locally where a Miele is used on a mulitmillionaires yacht being built at a local shipyard, or a oil rig crew boat. Even if somebody gave me one, no local service would know how to work on one.

The ordering a Sears 24" machine has its worries too, local service would probably require a New Orleans or Atlanta guy thus service costs would be higher.

Here my folks got there first FL Westinghouse in 1947 and another in 1976. Then I got the LG last november. If it last 4 to 5 years I will feel OK.

What really drives the market here is PRICE. Most folks want a washer that will last 5 to 10 years at least. New FL washers that arrived after 1990 got the mold issues, something none of us old FL users NEVER ever heard of before.

Here I have used FL washers for over 50 years, thus really they are nothing new, except the cycle time is longer.

There is about a 200 buck tax kickback to washer makers as tax break when washers use less water. It is just like when a car is de-tuned, or when a diesel truck turns off automatically at idle to "get the government numbers higher"

One reason many folks always tend to use the "add water button" is we get cleaner clothes. If it was the default; the maker does not get the 200 buck kickback as tax break.

 

[3beltwesty]

24" machines are not normal here on land.

I actually have never even seen a 24" frame machine in this area, except on plans for local yachts and oil crew boats being built locally. Even in local used ebay, CL and newspapers I have never seen a used 24" machine to buy to fart around with.

A 24" machine is what a multimillionaire gets for his yacht. A tow boat going down the mississippi river often has a 24" machine, so does a ocean oil rig service boat. They buy them for space saving reasons.

A local Sears store would not dare order one for the sale floor, to freakish.

In small condos with no washers some folks buy a portable Chinese Haier HLP 21 type washer, about 1 cubic feet and holds 6.6 Lbs. I bought off of ebay for 5 dollars, plus 39 freight as is. The sheet metal one can bend by hand!

 

[3beltwesty]

Ronhic; how "well" an american FL washes when stuffed full depends on the water level somewhat.

The old 1976 has a water level control; one can set the water level where ever one wants to.

Todays FL machine has the government involved. Software sets the water level; not you as an end user.

If one has the machine backed full and the machine senses it is only 1/2 feull, one has just showering, barely any sits in actual water.

If one has the machine backed full and the machine thinks it is more full than the last example; one gets "allowed" more water by the water cops.

Ponder why supremewhirlpool said he did not like LG based one low water levels.

Ponder why on another thread another is trying to get their LG to use more water.

My machine I got was bought because of price; I really did not want to pay more than about 600 bucks and the lower cost FL models on sale had a recall and gobs of spider failures. If my machine last 5 year I will be happy. I have ZERO FAITH that if I paid 1200 for a FL washer it will last a lot longer. The whole purchase was the machine is disposable. I would pay 1200 to 1800 for a machine if I really thought it was made with a kryponite spider.

What is a normal sized machine sold in an area really drives the pricing. 24" frame is oddball and freak here thus high end for yachts; or that roll the dice 24" machine via mail order with little local service base.

At local stores, smaller 27" sizes (volumes) are the starter models with few features that cost less. When one "gets a better machine" and moves up the price ladder; the volume stated gets larger. My machine is hawked as a 4.2 cuft model and it was 599 on sale marked down from 899.

In about 8 local stores, the smallest FL unit I ever saw was a 3.2 unit with few features and long rap sheet of issues. It was tempting at only 349, even more disposable.

Few locally fix anything; it all goes into a landfill; steel scrap goes to china.

The real waste is the machines are often too costly to fix.

 

[appnut]

I feel I need to contribute something here. We've been brainwashed into bigger is better. so the capcity/size wars have been going on for the last 5 years or so. Many people have comforters here and that's one attraction for these extra large front loaders--ability to wash all your bedding at home and not have to go to the coin laundry to wash them. I have a queen size bedspread which won't fit in my Fridgemore. I hate having to go to the coin laundry to wash. That's why I will look forward to beig able to wash all my bedding at home some day.

I guess forI am a tremendous exception to the norm. Over the years I have amassed quite a number of clothes. I don't have to wash but ever couple of weeks--depending upon what it is, I can go for 2-4 weeks. Part of that is driven by me being by myself. I don't like being reminded I am by myself so my wash loads, even after properly sorting, are still rather large--it makes me think I have a family. Plus, I"m a stocky guy and my clothes are bigger than average. Like only 4 to 5 pair of jeans fit comfortably in the Fridgemore. Anymore and it's wayy overloaded. It was the same way with the Lady Shredmore.

I

 

[ronhic]

mmmm......

....the more I think on it, the more I'm glad that in Oz, the consumer gets the kick-backs, not the manufacturer...

The only incentive for manufacturers to make efficient machines is that they have to carry a water and energy rating label...the consumer makes the final choice...

- want a machine with a heater, buy a front loader - they've all got them here...
- want something that's more traditional, buy a top loader - it'll use pretty much the same amount as your grans machine if you choose the right cycle....

...and if you're lucky, your council will offer you between $150-200 as an incentive to buy a 4 star or better water rated washer....

But the manufacturer gets nothing....mind, it doesn't hurt that we don't make any washers here anymore, but you get the drift....

Oh, and if the machine that is submitted for testing doesn't wash and rinse to a minimum standard, it isn't able to be sold here....one aspect of Government testing that actually attempts to ensure results are acceptable.

 

[roscoe62]

@ronhic

The machine I have is a whirpool duet,tilted drum.It does do a good job on bulkier items like the comforter I did yesterday, but when I put the "full" load in not so good.When my sister was home for Christmas with the monsters and had a load of clothes to do, six pairs of jeans, six t-shirts, a hoodie, and socks.She uses a Neptune with a slightly smaller drum, she was going to split the load, I said no there is room for all of it, she filled the washer, reluctantly,and it did not go into the final spin?
Why you ask, it could not balance the load, it was too tangled, so out it had to come to re-spin.Actually I made her do another rinse with the separated load and what I have noticed when this happens was when the washer is put on rinse and spin only it seems to use more water than it does on a complete cycle? Sometimes it doesn't finish the spin cycle because of tangling and it is most times towels or sheets.If I put more than two sets of sheets in the washer, hell breaks out, so I don't bother.It is a nuisance after your family leaves and you have to do more loads than you thought after buying this "huge capacity" machine.
You can imagine the mess I had with suds lock when I was using a liquid, can't you.

 

[ronhic]

Good grief....

...I'd have less hair than I have now!

My machine is rated at 6.5kg, the same as current model Miele 'standard' size machines. I have absolutely no hesitation putting 4 Queen sheets and 8 pillow cases in...

....and getting perfect results out. No suds issues, no spin drama....

 

[roscoe62]

You are one of the lucky ones.
It's all in how the machine "operates" as I was told by the technician when he was here when I had the Neptune from hell.There still aren't enough plastic explosives to feed into that if I still had it.
Thanks Ronhic

 

[dj-gabriele]

Hey guys, that's an interesting conversation but as usual it is becoming an apology to the "American right to waste"!

My intent was just to see which were the tangible differences between a "loaded" machine the European/Australian (as it seems to be the same) way and the American one.

 

[3beltwesty]

Few if any folks in the usa have a feel or even can find the specs on the Kg of wash items their washer will hold, thus Kg at best might as be some bad made up thing from a SiFi movie.

My own LG WM2501HVA is hawked as a 4.2 cuft model. When I figure the actual volume based on my measurements it is a 3.8 to 3.9 cuft model. The basket is about 22" in diameter and about 18" long, maybe really 17.3 to 17.8 because of the glass etc. The 1976 Westinghouse has a 22" dia basket that is 12" deep; thus about a 2.5 to 2.6 cuft model.

Lbs even tends not to be a metric used in hawking washers in the USA in home washers; it is more a commercial term. It is used more in older washers.

When I looked at hundreds of new washers last November, and read gobs of spec sheets; I NEVER saw any reference to Kg or Lbs of wash. Even if one asks the top salesperson, or does web research, these weight /mass terms are not a parameter most USA home washers use.

Thus imagine walking into a place that sells washers in the UK, OZ, NZ, Japan and asking how much that new Acme washer will hold in weight /mass with units in Goblets, Centons, Bizzaros, Crazys, Goofballs!

The marketing of washers in the USA is even more confusing because of how the cuft number is derived. It is NOT a dumb measurement of the volume like a balloon or trash bag of gas inserted in the basket would fill. It is a cooked derived number, sometimes HIGHER than the units actual volume. Thus the same exact stainless spin basket when used in different washers give different hawked/marked/government capacities. The same exact mechanical box can be rated at two different volumes, depending on the water polices specs and the software use to work the specs.

***Another LG washer that has the EXACT same spin basket as mine (labeled 4.2) might be 4.5 cuft or 4.0 cuft; depending on the software and test conditions and water polices water ratings.

As appnut mentioned, hawking washers by larger being better is normal here.

A giant fluffy comforter fits a lot somewhat better in my new larger washer than older machine. I have really only one left since Katrina and it is for another bed That got junked, thus this is a non issue for me now. Before Katrina I had a monster surplus of clothes, now since many got lost I am on the other side of the fence.

The tag on a Sears Comforter here says "MACHINE WASH,WARM,USE LARGE CAPACITY FRONT LOAD LOADING MACHINE AS FOUND IN A LAUDROMAT, TUMBLE DRY"

Beds in the USA are often, twin/single, Full, Queen and King sized.

Here is a SMALL usa comforter a FULL 76x86 inch one stuffed in the spin basket of the 1976 FL Westy. ie stuffed in and it is "HANGING OUT" of the spin basket. This basket is 22" diameter and 12" deep; about 2.8 to 2.9 cubic feet. This is too big to wash well, and its basket is larger than most 24" machines overseas.

 

[3beltwesty]

Here is the same FULL comforter in the LG washer that is 1.5

Here is the same FULL 76x86" small comforter that actually fits in the modern LG washer.

Since it really will not fit in the smaller washer, the non usa stance seams to be one uses the local laundromat.?

This comforter is really just a small one; for a small FULL bed. Gobs of folks have comforters that are for Queen and King sized beds or even larger.

This comforter is "sensed" by the washer as just a paltry load size, ie 1 or of 4 bars. Thus one uses the bulky program setting to use more water.

 

[3beltwesty]

Comforter fills about 3/4 the drum while wet and being washe

Here is the Full comforter in the wash cycle of the LG. The comforter fills up about 3/4 of the projected area one sees.

The decades old stance going back to the 1940's with American FL washers is one PURPOSELY wants to have SOME "free room" so the wash article actually can move around during the wash cycle. This is so the articles get to see a better wash action. ie it is considered bad practice is stuff a machine so full that the things are trapped and never move. This is in the 1947 Westy manual even.

Maybe the stance in non usa machines is all the wash article are stuck together and never move with respect to another?

With this wash load I probably could have also inserted a pair of blue jeans or 2; but no more, UNLESS ones goal was to have the items all no to move with respect to each other. At the start of an odd load, it is hard to figure how much room will be free one water shower is finished, ie the wash cycle.

 

[amyswasher]

LG model

Looking at this. I think I'm way overloading my machine. They advertise these things as doing more per load that top loaders (ha-ha). I reduced the load and I don't have-to iron near as much, Thanks Guys.

 

[3beltwesty]

Consider the waste in trips to the laundromat to wash bulky

IN the USA if one was "into using BIG comforters" and had just a small 24" European machine one would be traveling to the local laundromat to wash ones bulky items instead of washing them at home.

One has the added waste of time spent; the miles driven, the wear on the car, the added cost of paying 2 to 4 dollars in quarters to use the larger machine.

This trip to the coin laundromat is often an adventure. One has the dryers all full and folks have left, thus WW3 can start if one removes another's clothes and they are still wet. Thus what one does is try to tie up a dryer so one has one already to use. Ie you take some towels to be dried to tie the dryer up, so one is not waiting on a dryer.

When in California, the closest coin laundromat was only 1/2 mile away. Today on the other side of the country the closest one is about 6 miles away, ie about a 20Km round trip.

Is a 20Km round trip to wash ones clothes considered normal and green in non USA places?

In the USA going to a coin laundromat can be upscale classy to down right slummish and dangerous. There are times where every bozo wants to bum coins/quarters or soap from you, or "share" dryers ; or the place closes earlier than what is printed on the door and one has used the joint for years.

In California it was quite normal that nobody there in a laundromat spoke English. Washers would be used for dyeing clothes and ones white clothes would taken on the odd tint of the dye used. If one goes outside, some odd character will throw their clothes into your dryer since all are in usage. You go out to your car to fetch a magazine to read and find your washer full of dress white shirts has bluejeans and colored bras, and tennis shoes too. And it turns out she is not a total fox but a 350Lb blob with an attitude and is drunk. I have used coin machines at laundromats here for over 4 decades; the cross section of folks can be very odd.

A conforter in the deep south is at best a seasonal item, used when it is cold, stored when it is warmer.

 

[hoover1100]

Maybe the stance in non usa machines is all the wash article

No, it's to fill the machine to the point that it is full, yet still gives optimum results, with minimum waste.

As for trips to the laundromat to wash large comforters. We don't have comforters, we have duvets, which are used with a duvet cover on them. The actual duvet itself only needs washing about twice a year under normal conditions.

Now, why would I buy a machine and constantly run it almost empty, just for those occasions every 6 months when I may need a larger machine? It makes more sense to take these items to a laundrette to be washed. Aside from that, my machine still holds a double duvet quite comfortably, it is only my parent's king size duvet which needs to be taken to the laundrette.

@amyswasher if your clothes are coming out clean then you aren't overloading your machine. The picures of LGs in this thread are VERY underloaded.

This thread seems to be confirming that it is not a case of European machines being too small for many people, but one of American machines being much too big for many people.

Matt[this post was last edited: 2/6/2011-15:46]

 

[ronhic]

Times have a changed....

....since 1947....

 

...and even since 2007!

 

...but I agree that there should be some movement of the items in a washer to help push water through them or else they will just go around and around. However, you don't need a great deal of movement given the increase in cycle times compared to older machines. The FULL drum of dry clothes will compact by about 4" or so when wet. This is enough room to wash effectively.

 

Time is a key difference between European and American machines. European normal 'cotton warm' cycles are generally 120 minutes or more to ensure that the machine is able to wash a CAPACITY load correctly. American machines take around half that, from what I gather, on the same cycle.

 

You can't have it all:

 

Low water usage

 

AND

 

Large, usable capacity

 

AND

 

Fast cycles

 

AND

 

Great wash results....

 

Something has to give and I believe that American manufacturers have chosen to basically sell machines that just can't do the job that they APPEAR or are MARKETED to do...that is, be used to their full CAPACITY every time...

 

...sure, they can take a large comforter when you need to wash it (how often exactly???), but ask the same machine to wash filled to the brim and it seems as though they don't like it at all...

 

The shame of it all is that America used to lead the world in this field in the late 1940's/1950's when quality was king. Now it's the mighty dollar (again and no different in most countrys either by the way). The same brands are selling high specification machines that sing and dance, but given the technology, metalurgy, plastics processing and general manufacturing improvements that are around today, they just don't hold up as well as their 'grand-washers' did 50yrs ago.

 

Nothing we didn't know ....