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dirtybuck

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
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1,114
Location
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Yet again today, there's another news story about GM recalling 7.6 million vehicles from as far back as 1997. And because of this, their stock is down 1.2 percent.

It was bad enough reading about the Cobalt ignition crisis, and then having it expand to other models, but it seems a week doesn't go by without another group of vehicles being recalled. The ignition problem should have been addressed immediately, not five years and 13 deaths later.

This entire situation has left me ANGRY and fuming! Why is this happening? All these recalls are doing is fueling the fire for those who were against the bailout in 2009 (not to mention retaining the "Obamamotors" and "Government Motors" names). Is GM purposely trying to put themselves out of business? Who's to blame for all these problems? Is it the maufacturers of the parts or does it go even further to include the assembly line personnel?

I've driven nothing but Chevys since I got my drivers license in '73. The 27th made 12 years that I've had my '02 Cavalier. "He" (Sorry, but I will NOT associate my car with a female) has had "his" moments (water pump, switches to electric windows and socket to left parking light/turn signal needed replacement, peripheral interior flaws, clear coat on paint flaking off and in need of a new paint job), but other than that, the car has been VERY dependable. I'm almost at 92,000 miles on the odomoeter.

The heat index here in Springfield, MO is over 100 today, but I know when I get into the car later and adjust the temp knob halfway down, the ac will put out COLD air and I'll feel like I'm in Antartica.

If the situation would arise and my finances would enable me to do so, I'd like to buy a Cruze. I've heard nothing but good comments about them. However, if and when that happens, and this thing with GM doesn't change or gets worse, it looks like I might be investing in a Honda or Toyota instead.
 
I worked for General Motors for 7 years. My first car was a 1994 Grand Prix GTP. It's been great. My mom still drives it and it has 240,000 miles on it.

I bought a brand new 2002 WS6 Trans Am off of the car hauler. Literally off the hauler. That car had over 50 warranty claims on it when I finally traded it off after 2 years and 10,000 miles. I had a dealer tell me not to bring it back because they couldn't fix it. I worked for GM and could not get that piece of junk bought back.

I traded the TA on a new 2004 Buick Rainier V8. I kept that vehicle 6 months before I traded it in on a new 04 Silverado Crew Cab. That Rainier had multiple issues with the tail lights not working at random. They could never fix it.

The Silverado had a transmission failure at 5200 miles. The dash gauges would work when they wanted to. I finally traded it on my 2009 Hyundai Sonata when the transmission was going out for the second time at 75,000 miles. I currently have 99,000 miles on the Sonata and have had ZERO problems. NONE. It still looks like new, too. I take care of my vehicles and I expect them to take care of me. I will never own another piece of GM junk. Ever.
 
Cruze?

Gee, I really hope that isn't the same Cruze GM-Holden sells here in Australia... 

 

Some family that work for the government had one of those embarrassments... A/C not cold, car had no acceleration ability (i.e. Couldn't pass a car below highway speed), lethargic speed. But good fuel economy!

I'm not sure if it was a Petrol or Diesel, as that *might* affect the outcome. 

 

Just get something Japanese. They are honestly better than a lot of "native brands" in either of our countries - unless you get models that were actually Opel designs from Germany, Czech-Republic, Latvia etc.
 
I fixed my GM problem

Got tired of dealing with poor quality, poor service, poor reliability. I started buying Chrysler-Jeep.  Only issue I ever had was when the Ford F-150 drove through the front of my Grand Cherokee.  That hurt a little. 
 
I've had extremely good luck with GM vehicles- I have owned 3 and they have all been (mechanically anyway) very reliable. The first was a 1996 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme, which I bought knowing it had pretty major rust, but I needed a car- drove it for a year with a rusted out trailing arm, but had to let it go when the other one rusted through. I loved that car. The second was a 1992 Cadillac Deville, which was a great car and just floated down the road, but only ran on premium (and LOTS of it).I traded that in for a Mazda 626 that was absolutely TERRIBLE- It died after less than a year, and had less than 120,000 miles. I then bought my current car, a 2003 Chevy Impala, which I love and have had very little trouble with. I have put almost 20,000 miles on it in about 18 months, and it just rolled over 180,000. I'm looking to get 200,000 out of it and I will be buying a newer Impala, with less miles. I actually WANT to own another one, BUT wouldn't buy anything newer than 2005 on a bet.
 
Nothing New....

....And it's all three automakers.

Ask me sometime about the 1996 Ford Taurus of mine that went to the junkyard with 66,000 immaculately maintained miles on it, due to a cooling-system design flaw that Ford first refused to fix, then admitted there was no fix.

And ask me about the Eagle Premier that I took a huge loss on because I could not get ignition parts for it when it stopped running. Chrysler inherited that car as part of their acquisition of AMC, didn't want to produce it, were required to for five years by the terms of the AMC contract, and took their rage out on Premier owners. My sister had the Premier-clone Dodge Monaco, whose brakes the dealer failed to fix so many times she finally was able to invoke the lemon law. Their response when they bought the car back as they were required to do by law? "Never come back to us for a car - we won't sell you one."

The American auto industry has been irresponsible for decades, and our NHTSA permits it. Tauruses of the 1996-2007 generation have a habit of breaking their suspension springs, which has resulted in some unholy accidents. NHTSA's response? "Not a safety issue."

So, it's not just GM. Sorry, it's not.
 
Not different here in South America...

Cobalt is a disaster.

Cruze has a huge list of issues (including some consumers complaining the front bumber simply flew away on a highway. others complaining that the trunk opens by itself every time the car passes on a speed bumper.)

 

the ignition inspired several jokes.

ChevroletOnix (that replaced Chevrolet Corsa in our market) has serious issues with the rear glass exploding when the (i forgot it's name in english), those filaments to defrost the glass is turned on.

 

Not to mention the recent scandal with the safety belt buckles that simply release the belt when you most need it... during a crash because the screws are too weak. ( this issue affected "only" all the corsa, corsa sedan, celta, vectra, vectra GT, astra, astra sedan cobalt, cruze, cruze hatch, onix, spin, zafira, meriva, montana, silverado, S-10 and Blazer) . (note that some are made in the USA.)

And we had even a recall to replace the fire extinguisher holder because it tended to release the extinguisher from under the driver's seat. What could be worse than that small cilinder rolling to your feet right when you're driving?

If you want a good american car here in Brazil, there's a name: FORD.  The factory call center called me for one of those satisfaction research and i told them my Focus is great. They asked if there was any minimal thing that would annoy me so i just made a quick comment that i sometimes hear a "cricket" noise. Nothing that was relevant enough to annoy me and it happened not very often. Minutes later the local Ford dealer phoned me to ask where I was because they would send me their driver with the spare car and they would take my car to check what was that noise. They discovered it was a very small deformation (so small that it could be there for years unnoticed) in one of those plastic hooks that hold the net in the trunk. they replaced all the hooks and the net, free of charge and my car was returned washed and waxed and they even gave me a new leather keyring because mine was a little worn. That's what I call an excellent after sales service. My next car will certainly be another Ford.
 
While this was likely bad design, and they weren't very forthright with admitting the possible problem, in the end some of the blame also lies on the owners.

Nobody had any trouble with the ignition switches if they didn't have a lot of weight swinging around on their key ring. I used to manage a hardware store and the GM keys I cut were always the worst worn of any make I saw. I attribute that to their choice of the materials used for the key and the ignition lock. I did notice a disproportionate amount of GM owners had key rings with many ounces of keys and useless stuff dangling on them. Bear in mind that every time you turn brake or accelerate the inertia of a heavy key fob tugs and wears at the key and lock.

I would often recommend to customers that they save one key as a master and cut all dupes from that key, reducing weight on the key to an absolute minimum and finally treating the lock with Tri-Flow a couple times a year.

I have always carried my car and motorcycle keys as just the solo key and have never had an ignition switch related problem. If these GM owners had done this I reckon that there would have been zero problems. Still I agree that the detent in the ignition cylinder should be more robust to deal with heavy key rings etc and GM needs to address this post haste.
 
What I don't get is when these ignition locks switch themselves to "Off" while driving why don't the drivers just grab the key and turn it back to on? One of the first things you learn when learning to fly an airplane is that if the engine quits you first check the key to make sure it's still on. Why can't drivers do that? The moment you turn the key back to on the engine will resume running. You don't even have to turn it to start. The engine is still turning through the transmission if you are still moving.

I know what you mean about excess weight on key chains. I've seen women with huge jewelry pieces on their key rings, pepper spray canisters, etc. All you need is a few keys. That's it!
 
I have owned

Many different vehicles...and I wouldnt drive a GM product across town..I would bet something would happen to it,,Now a 30 or 40 year old Plymouth...I would start to California and never worry!!LOL
 
Why can't drivers be educated like pilots? Weeelll, because the law is designed to put people in cars, NOT to put COMPETENT people in cars. C'mon, you knew that.

Your average driver only knows one thing when ANYthing goes wrong, slam the brakes.

I briefly drove American Airlines pilots around from their training hotel in Arlington. So we're going through a green light around 30mph and the idiot in the left turn lane decides s/he doesn't want to turn left and bolts out right in front of me. I swerve discreetly so as not to jam the guy on my right and avoid what would otherwise have been a gnarly crash. In a Dodge van. The pilot-passenger says "that's some reflexes". I said "well I'm a pilot too".

That's not the only example I could quote you. I drive a 28yo Toyota and the only dent in it is where some asshole banged it with a shopping cart. Not for idiots not trying.
 
Was looking for new vehicles the past month and never even considered any GM product line. After all the news about them and Ford who was going to have more recalls, ford was out of the line up also. Ended up buying a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Love the vehicle, the only thing getting used to is it is all digital programming. Seems like running windows 8. Everyday find new and interesting details on the workings.
Jon
 
"What's going on" is media outlets have found something to drive their 24/7 cycle of panic and doom. While I'll concede that these particular lock cylinders were probably the weakest example of such a part, 10-15 years ago we would have laughed off the idea of a stalled engine being the cause of a crash. And how long have we all been warned not to hang 5lbs of junk from our keys? With the advent of push-button start, keyed ignition switched are suddenly "dangerous"!

Last winter my girlfriend blew a brake line as she was slowing for a "michigan left" (180-turn in a traffic island). As soon as she realized she wouldn't stop for cross-traffic, she let her outside tire rub the curb to loose speed, then let the car (14 y/o Escape) climb the curb and brought it to rest with the bumper against a sign post. Of course she still had (greatly) reduced rear braking power, so she backed off the island and proceeded carefully across the intersection to work. Then she called me and said "come get the car, I broke it", lol. I had the line R&R'd before she finished her shift (doing taxes for HR Block). Another time, she was climbing the I-75 bridge through SW Detroit and she called me saying "the car is losing power, I don't think it will climb the bridge!" Simultaneously, it stalled. She had the presence of mind to coast over to the right shoulder and turn on the harazards. Turns out the catalytic converter had clogged so badly the engine stopped.

No lawsuits, no accidents, no paniced moments. No ill will toward Ford... The thing started as a MI state-owned vehicle, so I can imagine how well it was treated (lol) and it's seen every snow/salt infested winter and heavily potholed road. It's allowed to puke a part occasionally. It's never seen maintenance until it breaks, because with its age and mileage it simply isn't worth the money. Meanwhile other "cute utes" of that age have virtually disappeared from these unforgiving roads.
 
 
My dad has advised us for years to keep excess weight off automobile keyrings.

My sister has a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee (tricked-out with all the options) and has had it in for service several times ... she had a rental car for at least week recently.

RJ was recently doing some exterior spray painting on his latest rennovation house in town.  He was concerned about the neighbor's black car of some GM-ilk in the driveway next door catching overspray so went to advise her.  She gave him the keys to move it ... and he was hugely alarmed at being unable to shut off the engine.  Brought the problem to her attention, she told him she has been waiting a month for a backordered part on the recall.  She fiddled with it, nada.  She called the local dealer, they fiddled with it, ended up taking it in to the shop ... I think this was on a Sunday afternoon.
 
I have a 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix GT. It only has like 60,000 miles on it but it's been pretty reliable. But I can say this - I think they use cheaper materials inside than Ford. The dash looks/feels so cheap to me in the Grand Prix compared to similar priced/year models Fords that I have seen.

Since have it the AC has had to be fixed and the power steering.
 
I like to consider myself a pretty savvy driver. I have autocrossed my car, raced 170 mph motorcycles and I am very mechanically sympathetic and pay attention to what the vehicle is doing.

If I were driving in my car at today's highway speeds and in the middle of a sweeping corner suddenly the car decided to kill the engine and in the process locked the steering etc, I'm not so sure I could recover in the split second before the disaster. Grandma is likely to do a bit worse...

Indeed it would be wonderful if all the drivers on the road were trained, and practiced as pilots are, there would be a lot less troubles. But alas that is an unreasonable thing to ask for. This ignition switch failure in a car is likely to allow a lot less reaction time then the problem a pilot might face too. There is no safety of altitude here :(

Of course the sad reaction is that they will likely "Nanny up" the cars now with other complexities so this can't happen. They just need to design the switch correctly and people equally should both educate themselves in driving and reaction skills and spend less time hanging useless weight on their key fobs!
 
The ignition switch isn't locking the column... Now THAT would be recall-worthy! It's just opening the ciruit and stopping the engine. Just like running out of gas... Perhaps 2019's big recall.

Remember when people used to have a minor accident and move off the road? Seems like that idea has also gone the way of tailfins and carburetors. If we're all so concerned about safety, maybe getting the hell of the road, even if that means driving with a broken piece of plastic, is a good idea? People are so conditioned today to just "stop, drop and roll" at the slightest deviation from normal.

I blame lawyers and the nanny state, lol. Self-reliance is hate-speech in 2014.
 
Rick,

My point was only that a disaster can happen in seconds in a car, there are lots of nearby objects that can be struck in milliseconds. A pilot may have a lot more time (excepting landing and take off) to react to a problem, hence the safety of altitude. I will agree I would much rather have the engine stall in my car then when I'm in flight ;)

It would be very helpful if every driver had time in the simulator to cover various failure scenarios though. Pretty unrealistic though, we have to deal with some pretty low lowest common denominators here.
 
The ignition switch isn't locking the column... Now THAT would be recall-worthy!

That has been reported in a few of the cases. The key switched all the way off locking the steering column.

Chrysler just issued a recall on some of their models for ignition switch problems. I wonder if they are using the same supplier GM did?

Now that we know there are problems with ignition switches in cars it should be common sense for people to check to ensure the switch is on if their car dies while in motion. It takes about 1 second to do. They ought to make a public service announcement about this.

http://www.investing.com/news/stock...huge-recall-for-ignition-switch-defect-292374
 
Turning Chi-a-nese I really think so

Are all our engineers turning Chi-a-nese? I mean, if you can't make a 4-position switch what CAN you do? Well, you can bullshxt about it and make it a corporate basketball for a decade until Congress calls you one day asking 'what the hell is wrong with you people?'. Pretty much what happened. GM has recalled numerically more cars in this half year than they MAKE in a WHOLE year. Can't blame 13 (actually more than 50 but media uses GM's statistic of 13 so they won't get sued) dead shxtty drivers for that.

I'm not giving aircraft a walk. Asiana flew a perfectly-operational aircraft into a pre-runway obstruction almost exactly a year ago for no other reason than the pilots were using their brains for seatcushions. Nice way of saying heads inexcusably up their asses.

Which is the same thing the whole GM engineering chain did with this switch thing. Except instead of minutes in the Asiana case, GM did it for the better part of a decade.
 
If I were to buy a new car today the Kia Soul would be one of those at the top of the list.

Although the new Jeep Renegade looks interesting.

I've have very good luck with my '99 Chrysler 300M which I got new. Biggest repair so far has been when the transmission speed sensor went out and it kept on stalling on right hand turns. Luckily I limped it home, took about an hour to diagnose it on the internet, about another hour to locate and pick up a new sensor at the dealer, and 30 minutes to install it myself.

GM's reliability record for the past decade appears to be troublesome. They say some companies are too big to fail. I wonder if GM is too big to succeed.
 
I may be in the minority here, but as a long term GM owner I wouldn't think twice about buying GM. I've decided my next car purchase will be yet another Buick, which I've decided will be an Enclave.
 
If I was to buy a *new* car, it would likely be the Kia Soul as well. I've liked them since they came out a few years back. In Green of course.
 
I've had extraordinary service from my 1994 Geo Prizm (a rebadged Toyota Corolla). At 20 years young, and with 262,000 miles on it, I've put very little money into repairs. I'm still on the original clutch!
No major parts have ever been replaced. It runs like a top and doesn't use oil. Had I known I'd keep the thing this long, I'd have taken care of rust spots, etc.

I miss the Geo nameplate, because it was a way I could purchase a Toyota at a GM dealership. I'd gladly buy one again. GM closed our little burg's dealership in the economic downturn of 2009. We have only a Ford dealership. I try to buy 'local' whenever possible, but I'm not a Ford person by nature.

I drove a 2013 Ford Fusion (rental) over 600 miles last fall and was impressed with it. Handled well; interior was quiet; seat was comfortable. However...(there's that word, again) I really want another compact car (easy to park; plenty of walk-around room in my garage). A friend bought a 2013 Focus and really liked it for a few months. Then the problems with electronics and transmission started. It's been in the shop several times (still covered by warranty) but that doesn't bode well for the long-term. If Ford can get those problems under control, I'll buy a Focus in a heartbeat.

Otherwise, I'll take my business to Mankato, MN and get a Corolla.

GM history: My first car was a 1969 Olds Delta 88 (purchased from my stepfather when I turned sixteen in 1975)---great car. Followed that with a 1982 Cavalier which was an absolute nightmare; one problem after another. Then came my beloved '86 Camaro Z28. What a gorgeous car it was, but dad recurring problems with AC, brakes, and exhaust system. That led to the Mighty Geo, which has been almost miraculously reliable. Still drive it 75 mph down the interstate, although I accelerate gently and go easy on the brakes these days.
 
Z28

My cousin had a Z28 which he loved but the paint peeled like nobody's business. And I thought the stick shift/clutch was balky in that thing.
 
Reliability.

I've had my 1987 Volvo since 1999 and just drove it on a 1,600 mile road trip with minimal issues. Volvos of today, however, bear NOTHING in common with Volvos of my era, so I cannot attest to the reliability of current production models. My Volvo had required a fair bit of maintenance and repair, but at 27 years old and over 152,000 miles, I expect that and accept it.

I had a 2002 Saab 9-3. I drove it for 7 years and found it to be comfortable, fun to drive, versatile, and it delivered supurb fuel economy. It was also terribly unreliable, requiring 4-5,000 dollars at the shop every year, paid for by the warranty company. I sold it when the warranty expired. Most of the problems were with the electronics, for which I blame GM. Reliability aside, the Saab was fantastic.

Now, I also have a 2008 Honda Element. It's not as comfortable as the Saab, but it will hold major appliances with ease. Thus far, it has required only routine maintenance and not a single unscheduled repair! I've experienced Honda and I can say it is everything it is cracked up to be! I'd gladly buy another, but I see no reason why replacing my Element would be necessary.

Dave
 
One cost benefit the Japanese manufacturers had over the Big 3 is that they outsourced much of their manufacturing of parts, whereas the Big 3 built most everything in-house.

When the Big 3 figured this out, they began divesting themselves of their parts divisions and began outsourcing parts. The problem is how they did it. The Japanese built relationships with their suppliers, treating them like extended family. Whereas the Big 3 played a game called "screw the supplier." All of the Big 3 did this, and they developed the worst reputation among suppliers.

It is really no surprise they got crappy parts as a result. Bloomberg did a decent article about GM's ignition debacle, at the link.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...ueezing-days-gave-birth-to-flawed-models.html
 

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