Which FL Washer Has Highest Temperature Boost Heater?

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I'm all for people having choice, but as to why very high temps (over 140F) have never taken off the in the USA, I think they're just not needed to get most laundry clean if you're using a top detergent.  Even clothes that would benefit (like white socks) could never take that kind of heat without being damaged anyway.

 

If someone is washing shop or cleaning rags I could see where it could be useful though.

 

 

 

 
 
I use my 95C cycle all the time for stuff like underwear, towels and bedding, as well as heavily-sweated-into clothing... I could not cope with a machine that only heated to 60C or so! Good detergents help, but to really sanitise stuff that could have nasty bacteria etc in it, you need an Imperial shit-ton of heat! Even 95c is a compromise, a sop to the Euro eco-police, the old AEGs, Bauknechts, Brockes and Constructas did a full rolling-boil 100c... what I'd give to find one of those!
 
Thanks, guys, for the comments. Keep 'em coming!
In the US, only the smaller Miele is available, and I am pretty sure my son, who asked for me to choose a new washer, wants a larger size. He and his wife are remodeling most of the first floor of their house, including the laundry room. They currently have a Bosch Nexxt, but that model is also no longer available in the US. I often do their laundry.
I am a big fan of very hot water after having a Miele 1203 (I thin that is the right model number).
 
Have said this before, an am doing so again

Not even hospital/healthcare linens are "boiled" routinely any longer.

Besides the energy costs there is also fact it has been long known such high heat washing increases wear on textiles.

Current accepted standard is either 65C wash held for ten minutes. Or 71C for at least three.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/biosafety/blood-borne-viruses/laundry-treatments.htm

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/13/science/how-to-kill-germs-in-the-laundry.html

As for NSF standard:

"The protocol does not evaluate the water or steam temperature per se,
but it evaluates the ability of the sanitization cycle to perform
effectively. The sanitization cycle of a washer is dependent on the
combination of many variables (i.e. – drum size, drum shape, heater
wattage- if applicable, cycle time, cycle temperature, tumbling action,
etc.) These variables can change from model to model and manufacturer to manufacturer as long as they perform effectively.”

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3985455/nsf-protocol-p-172-sanitary

Meaning that designation is no guarantee of "boil washing" temperatures. How can it when few to any washing machines sold in USA have the power to flash heat water fast enough to truly quickly sanitize.
 
People mention different things to explain why Americans did not get cozy with very high temperature wash: we have 120V as standard (240V outlets are not found everywhere, even when people have a single home and could pay for someone to install it), hot and cold fill hookups are usually available, people are afraid that the very high temps will damage the fabrics/garments, etc.

But the biggest factor, in my opinion, is a very simple one: people here are addicted to chlorine bleach -- that's why most people say 95C is unnecessary. Yes, a very high end detergent is helpful, but we did not have that until recently -- until Wisk tried to introduce tabs, Euro detergents were *much* better than our top-of-the-line Tide and Wisk. P&G only improved Tide substantially when Henkel entered the market with Persil.

So, until very recently, *anyone*, even people using chlorine bleach, would immediately notice a *huge* improvement after washing with detergents from Europe (Persil, Ariel, etc) and 95C (205F). The *other* thing that is common in this case, is that I've often heard people complain about "stains that came back after boiling!", that is, stuff that had been "gone" for years, say, a chocolate stain, that is now very faint, but noticeable. The problem is that now that the fabric is *whiter* than it's ever been, you notice the stain that even bleach could not remove. Once you wash the fabric at 95C a couple of times more, they'll disappear too.

And, I'd like to point out again, that bleach (even chlorine bleach) doesn't really "clean" the stains -- it removes the color. It can denature some proteins, but it's not a miracle worker. That's exactly why people who murder someone and "clean" the crime scene with bleach often end up in jail anyway. The color is gone, but there are plenty of tests that not only test for bleach presence, but also for the compounds that are still left behind.

The other thing I can say, to *both* camps, the European people who don't understand why/how we can live without "boil washes" *and* the American contingent who don't understand why/how European people don't turn their clothes into rags by boiling them: there is no wrong or right here. Clothes are basically manufactured to withstand the way local people wash them. And in any case, there is not a lot of difference between bleaching the laundry with chlorine every time and washing the clothes at 95C every time.

People who lived in both places (or used both methods) understand this very readily, it's not a hard concept to grasp. And in any case, the best way to get clean clothes and gentle wear/care is *still* to use the proper kinds and amounts of enzymes anyway.

Like the soap opera actress in Women at the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown said in the "advertisement", her son the murderer never went to jail because she washed all his clothes with OMO... :-P ;-)

Until people understand that, they'll be fighting two unequal battles: people who want to finish their laundry sooner, and use up to 140F/60C and chlorine bleach, versus people who want a slightly whiter/cleaner laundry and wait 2 hours for a 95C wash with no bleach or oxygen bleach.

Cheers,
      -- Paulo.
 
Something else have said previously

Boiling as routine part of domestic laundry went out when fully or even semi-automatic washing machines became the norm.

Yes, you still needed hot water. Also "yes" some housewives or whoever still chose to boil certain things such as baby's nappies, used handkerchiefs, etc...

But remember prime reason for all that hot to boiling water (aside from perceived sanitation) was use of soap as detergent. Quite simply unless kept in solution (warm to hot or even elevated temperatures) soap will congeal in textiles trapping not only that residue, but scum, dirt and muck as well. Hence sooner or later you ended up with tattle-tale grey or yellow laundry. Boiling opens fabric weave allowing whatever to be passed out, rather than trapped.

Chlorine bleach is/was a godsend in that it whitened, sanitized and *removed stains* (by decolorizing), but then as now commercial and domestic laundry manuals gave same advice; laundry that was properly washed shouldn't need routine chlorine bleaching. This regardless of what Clorox and other brands of the stuff would have us believe.
 
European detergents weren't always as good as they are nowadays ofcourse. That was the reason boil washes were done. In the sixties a lot of European detergents didn't contain that much enzymes. That's why Biotex came on the market in some countries, a special pre-wash (Biotex blue) and pre-soak detergent (Biotex green) were brought on the market. Standard in the sixties were to pre-wash with Biotex and wash with a regular detergent (my mother used Dixan).

In the seventies the energy crisis came around and on most European washing machines the E-button was introduced, a button that lowered the temperature to 60, 67 or there abouts and also prolonged the main wash. That's when washing at lower temperatures started. I know only a few washing machine enthousiasts that still wash at 95 degrees celcius, most other people wash at lower temperatures.
 
Miele OctoPlus

They won't sell these to US private customers as they do not meet domestic safety regulations.

And honestly: Don't think you need a bigger machine. It fits basicly any size pillow, most comforters, about 14 pounds of laundry.
Unless you have a thick king size comforter that needs weekly processing, you'll get along more then fine.
 
Energy Crisis In Europe At Least

Spurred invention of oxygen bleach activator TAED, which allowed "boil wash" results at 40c: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraacetylethylenediamine

Sodium perborate was the oxygen bleaching agent of choice on both sides of the pond then (Persil just that *PER*borate and *SIl*icate, along with soap and other substances. By 1959 the soap went, but sodium perborate remained.

Sodium perborate is cheaper than sodium percarbonate which probably is one reason why it was so often used. However recently EU has banned borates for laundry so everyone is switching over to sodium percarbonate. That oxygen bleach is known for "cold water" power and technically doesn't need an activator, but many products choose to add TAED anyway.

In the USA P&G developed NOBS first found in Biz (when it switched from a pre-soak to oxygen bleach "booster". It later was found in Oxydol then finally Tide with Bleach. It was TWB that killed off eventually both Oxydol and Biz as P&G sold both off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate

NOBS has the advantages of working better in the usually more dilute conditions of American laundry (all those top loading washing machines). It also works well in the shorter cycles and lower temps (since American top loaders obviously don't heat water, "hot" is what comes out of the taps), found with top loaders.

Interestingly in EU the patents on TAED have long expired, so you find activated oxygen bleach products not just from Henkel, but many other companies as well.

OTOH P&G has kept NOBS patents on lock down ever since their discovery. As such the only laundry products (and IIRC dishwasher detergents such as Cascade) that have activated bleaching systems based on that substance all come from Proctor and Gamble.

Ecolab has a solid oxygen bleach product and have some in my stash. It however is TAED based, not NOBS, which gets around P&G.
 
Yes, they do

While yes, the original patent does expire in twenty years; inventor can file again claiming "improvement", which starts the clock all over again. Well assuming the new patent is granted. https://patents.stackexchange.com/questions/10441/how-can-you-renew-an-expired-patent

Over the years P&G not only have improved their activated bleaching system, but the detergent powders it goes into as well.

Thus it isn't just the bleaching activator someone would need; but a formula for a powdered detergent that incorporated same *and* performed same or better as TWB.

Think this is original patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4087369A/en

Then came another in 2003:https://patents.google.com/patent/US20040142844A1/en

From 1991: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO1992013798A1/en

More: https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Gerard+Marcel+Baillely

It isn't just the bleaching activator per se; but how things all come together to make a detergent that will perform as expected consistently.

Here is MSDS for the old Biz (by P&G)
https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=16003096

If you click onto "Color Safe Bleach....." you get a listing of other activated oxygen bleach detergents/bleaches; all are P&G brands.

https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=chem&id=1534

Here is the MSDS for a version of TWB powder: https://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=16030569

If you click on "Nonanoyloxy Benzene Sulfonate", the only products that have it are all from P&G (Tide).

P&G's (2008) purchase agreement: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1337298/000106880008000357/ex10p7.htm

[this post was last edited: 6/13/2018-06:35]
 
We still don't understand the environmental effects enzymes have when released into natural ecosystems, and they are a major cause of skin allergies. I simply couldn't use enzyme detergents if I wanted to, as I and all my family are severely allergic to them and suffer nasty skin rashes if we come into contact with enzyme-washed fabrics. The best solution is simply oxygen bleach and plenty of heat - and time. 65C for only 10 minutes, or 71C for three?! Hopeless!

...and of course, Which? here in the UK found that most machines don't get anywhere near the advertised temperatures. The worst offender was an AEG that peaked at 27C on a "60C" cycle!
 
Enzymes in laundry detergents/products

Are not generally cause of skin or other allergies.

https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/bio-washing-powder-rashes-a-myth/

Largest risk are to those employed in manufacturing and or those coming in contact with product dust or undiluted state. Hence the warnings on packets about breathing in dust or allowing the stuff to come into contact with skin.....

Outside of UK the concept of "non-bio" laundry detergents or whatever largely does not exist. That or those without said substances are either MOL or BOL products, and or perhaps designed to appeal to a certain segment of market.

Even detergents such as Dreft, Fairy and others designed for baby laundry contain enzymes. They are actually rather powerful at that; but also are made to rinse cleanly to lessen chances of skin irritation.

If enzymes were truly a major cause of skin irritation there would be statistically more cases reported; which there isn't.

What may be mistaken as an allergy to laundry product enzymes can be and often is related to other substances. Fragrances, types of surfactants used, preservatives and other things are far more likely to cause skin issues.
 
Rarely use 95c these days

Found the Hygiene cycle on my washer which holds 60c from cold for 12 - 15 minutes it works perfectly with Persil non bio and gets white cotton clean as boiling without the shrinkage and the creasing so its a win win for me :)
 
P&G's 'Fairy' Laundry Detergents

Do not contain enzymes of any form. The clue is on the packet... "Non-Bio".

This detergent has always been so, and was seen as an answer to Persil Non-Bio.

I have heard of folk with eczema - with personal experience of one such person - who could tolerate Persil Non-Bio, yet came up in a rash with Fairy Non-Bio. So this might suggest that another component in the detergent is causing the problem, either fragrances, or the surfactants themselves.

Or perhaps P&G's formulations just 'stick' too well to fabrics - even through the rinses?
 
Had Never Heard of Non-Bio

before reading this forum.  My first thought was it meant non-biodegradable, LOL.

 

How did this become an issue overseas and not in the USA?  Seems like the USA has more than its share of worriers about everything else.

 

Sort of surprised no company here has tried to make it an issue for marketing advantage.
 
There are so many non-bio options in the USA. Just think of the BOL brands like Sun, Xtra and so on. Only difference is that UK manufacturers immediately seized the opportunity to charge the same prize from the worriers for a cheaper product through clever marketing.

Enzymes today are generally considered safe for the skin when used under normal conditions.
Then again very high levels of protease can indeed trigger skin reactions.
Thinking of how prevalent twin tubs were in the UK at the advent of bio-detergents, their hit and miss rinsing action in the spinner tub, this could explain problems with enzymes.
 
As one stated

Yes, there are detergents without enzymes here in USA, but they tend to be MOL or BOL products. X-tra liquid is really nothing more than colored water and some scent masquerading as detergent. In all cases however depending upon one's needs or purposes such products may suffice perfectly well.

One of my favourite products for bed linens is "Linen Wash", which cleans remarkably well. But then again one changes such linen frequently and don't eat four course meals in bed.

Bio vs. Non-Bio in regard to UK has been discussed here in group frequently: http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?38006
 

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