Whirlpool Accuses Samsung & LG Of Dumping Washers
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pierreandreply4
Well-known member
my 2 cents in this post
Here is my 2 cents in this post i think for 1 thing its the fact that its competition for 1 thing and second i have a 2004 duet whirlpool washer dryer set that are 8 years old and they are still workingand in fall 2012 it will be the 9 year i have this generation 1 duet set and they are still working and second the main reason brands like miele washers are unkown to consumers is because the price must be pretty high or the capecety of the washer do not fit familys of todays needs and as for huebesh speed queen in canada and the us if speed queen wents to be known in the consumers market they should realse tv commercials and advertise in magazines or have a set hook up and saying to the consumers try us in store and if you love or cleaning power buy us for your family needs well this is my 2 cent in this post.
Here is my 2 cents in this post i think for 1 thing its the fact that its competition for 1 thing and second i have a 2004 duet whirlpool washer dryer set that are 8 years old and they are still workingand in fall 2012 it will be the 9 year i have this generation 1 duet set and they are still working and second the main reason brands like miele washers are unkown to consumers is because the price must be pretty high or the capecety of the washer do not fit familys of todays needs and as for huebesh speed queen in canada and the us if speed queen wents to be known in the consumers market they should realse tv commercials and advertise in magazines or have a set hook up and saying to the consumers try us in store and if you love or cleaning power buy us for your family needs well this is my 2 cent in this post.
launderess
Well-known member
Miele
While vastly more popular than say ten years ago still is a niche brand in the USA and will remain so far as one can see.
With a limited distribution network and all parts having to be imported from Germany (other than what is already in stock at the main warehouse in New Jersey), service work in particular DIY is difficult. If one lives near a main (upscale) urban area then finding a dealer and or repairman is likely to be eaiser than other parts of the United States.
In Europe one can walk into any number of supply houses or find on the Internet parts for Miele appliances. There is also a very large network of service personnel for repair work not just those directly from Miele. This helps because the world round Miele's call out charges are dear.
When the offerings of front loading washing machines were few in the USA Miele made sense, but with the American market virtually moving towards all front loaders there are other obvious and less expensive choices.
Unlike Asko and Bosch Miele refuses to build a plant in North America so everything sold here must incur extra costs for duty, tranport and other fees.
While vastly more popular than say ten years ago still is a niche brand in the USA and will remain so far as one can see.
With a limited distribution network and all parts having to be imported from Germany (other than what is already in stock at the main warehouse in New Jersey), service work in particular DIY is difficult. If one lives near a main (upscale) urban area then finding a dealer and or repairman is likely to be eaiser than other parts of the United States.
In Europe one can walk into any number of supply houses or find on the Internet parts for Miele appliances. There is also a very large network of service personnel for repair work not just those directly from Miele. This helps because the world round Miele's call out charges are dear.
When the offerings of front loading washing machines were few in the USA Miele made sense, but with the American market virtually moving towards all front loaders there are other obvious and less expensive choices.
Unlike Asko and Bosch Miele refuses to build a plant in North America so everything sold here must incur extra costs for duty, tranport and other fees.
To Launderess and nrones
I agree with you.
I did find it frustrating that if I did want to consider Asko or Miele, I'd have to put up with poor service, if I needed it. In theory, if a machine is supposed to be extremely reliable, why would I need it?
It's a hard sell to someone to say, "Oh yeah, this machine costs $1000 more but does the same things and has crappier service and support."
I really hate the designation of "Snob Brand".. because these are legitimate companies which make a legitimate product which do a legitimate thing very well and reliably enough. It's just that they come from Europe that gives them a snob appeal.
It's kind of like buying a Lamborghini because you want to get to work faster... Is it a snob brand? Kinda.. Yes, they're expensive cars but look what they'll do. I seriously doubt I'd be driving to work at 300 km/h in one though.
To Nrones:
The problem with engineers thinking they're better than everyone else, is that as soon as you stop paying attention to #2, you will become #2. Overconfidence and ignorance can destroy a company.
Look at Hyundai.. Back in the 1980's, they used to be a joke here in Canada. Cars were coming off the line with bent frames and all kinds of defects. They were known for rusting like nobodies business and didn't last all that long as a result.
Now, they build cars which are considerably reliable, dependable and feature laden. They are a serious competitor to domestic brands here. GM, Ford and Mopar (Chrysler) underestimated them and look at what happened.
Hyundai ate their lunch, that's what!
In a lot of ways, these industries parallel each other.
I think Samsung and LG are becoming serious competitors to American brands. Very serious competitors. If the domestic manufacturers don't smarten up soon and smell the bacon, they will have their lunch eaten for them quicker than they can blink and by then it'll be too late.
I agree with you.
I did find it frustrating that if I did want to consider Asko or Miele, I'd have to put up with poor service, if I needed it. In theory, if a machine is supposed to be extremely reliable, why would I need it?
It's a hard sell to someone to say, "Oh yeah, this machine costs $1000 more but does the same things and has crappier service and support."
I really hate the designation of "Snob Brand".. because these are legitimate companies which make a legitimate product which do a legitimate thing very well and reliably enough. It's just that they come from Europe that gives them a snob appeal.
It's kind of like buying a Lamborghini because you want to get to work faster... Is it a snob brand? Kinda.. Yes, they're expensive cars but look what they'll do. I seriously doubt I'd be driving to work at 300 km/h in one though.
To Nrones:
The problem with engineers thinking they're better than everyone else, is that as soon as you stop paying attention to #2, you will become #2. Overconfidence and ignorance can destroy a company.
Look at Hyundai.. Back in the 1980's, they used to be a joke here in Canada. Cars were coming off the line with bent frames and all kinds of defects. They were known for rusting like nobodies business and didn't last all that long as a result.
Now, they build cars which are considerably reliable, dependable and feature laden. They are a serious competitor to domestic brands here. GM, Ford and Mopar (Chrysler) underestimated them and look at what happened.
Hyundai ate their lunch, that's what!
In a lot of ways, these industries parallel each other.
I think Samsung and LG are becoming serious competitors to American brands. Very serious competitors. If the domestic manufacturers don't smarten up soon and smell the bacon, they will have their lunch eaten for them quicker than they can blink and by then it'll be too late.
pierreandreply4
Well-known member
My toughts on this
this is my toughts but me i think that they are trying to make some serious compition to whirlpool and my tought is that sure its nice to pay a higher price but the problem is that if service is needed and they do not have in store or the repair truck the needed part for repair in the case of lg or samsung where do they have to order the part if they have to order the part from there european factory how many days will it take before the part arrives in the repair shop and the teck comes to install the new part unless they pay for 24 hours rush delevery to have the part the next day but thats not counting custom that may went to open the package and check the content. If i had to have a service repair done on my washer and the service tech would tell me after evaluating that the cost of the repair woould cost the price of a new washer i would buy a maytag maxima washer dryer set or another whirlpool duet set because in the near future i went to have the dryer stack on top of the washer.
this is my toughts but me i think that they are trying to make some serious compition to whirlpool and my tought is that sure its nice to pay a higher price but the problem is that if service is needed and they do not have in store or the repair truck the needed part for repair in the case of lg or samsung where do they have to order the part if they have to order the part from there european factory how many days will it take before the part arrives in the repair shop and the teck comes to install the new part unless they pay for 24 hours rush delevery to have the part the next day but thats not counting custom that may went to open the package and check the content. If i had to have a service repair done on my washer and the service tech would tell me after evaluating that the cost of the repair woould cost the price of a new washer i would buy a maytag maxima washer dryer set or another whirlpool duet set because in the near future i went to have the dryer stack on top of the washer.
Samsung
Qualin,
How many years took Hyndai to "eat lunch"? I have a feeling that all this with Samsung and LG is going too fast. I mean just 4 years ago, Samsung machines were a laugh, that costed 150-180 euros (image) (cheapest on the market), with programmes not resulting to a good wash (frend from school had it, and complained), also lifetime was measured in months. All that lead into fail of 3 representative Samsung offices in Serbia.
Then all of the sudden, Samsung released new (better) products, with so much confidence. I have no experience with their machines, but if they are doing exact same story as they did with mobile phones - that is NO thanks for me.
To be precise - I was Ericsson (SonyEricsson later) user since my first phone. 4-5 years ago I remember me and my friend's Sony Ericssons falling on the floor 10000times, it got only scratchs, sometimes it would strongly land on the floor - again beautiful camera pictures and everything, just got scratches, while my friend's (more of them) who had Samsungs, for the same had dead displays, speakers, flat cable breaking etc.
Years passed, Samsung "built-up" it's reputation, and after 4 SE's I bought a Samsung (newest model then), and just after few months - it got worn out, flimsy, speaker broke down, and for the end it slammed on the floor, and had to visit service because of that. While my friend stuck to SE, who's phone is like new.
This is why I have less confidence in Samsung products. I gave them 1 shot on their "reputation", and they disappointed me as much as they could.
Now when I look at the image, they don't look as bad as they actually were
Qualin,
How many years took Hyndai to "eat lunch"? I have a feeling that all this with Samsung and LG is going too fast. I mean just 4 years ago, Samsung machines were a laugh, that costed 150-180 euros (image) (cheapest on the market), with programmes not resulting to a good wash (frend from school had it, and complained), also lifetime was measured in months. All that lead into fail of 3 representative Samsung offices in Serbia.
Then all of the sudden, Samsung released new (better) products, with so much confidence. I have no experience with their machines, but if they are doing exact same story as they did with mobile phones - that is NO thanks for me.
To be precise - I was Ericsson (SonyEricsson later) user since my first phone. 4-5 years ago I remember me and my friend's Sony Ericssons falling on the floor 10000times, it got only scratchs, sometimes it would strongly land on the floor - again beautiful camera pictures and everything, just got scratches, while my friend's (more of them) who had Samsungs, for the same had dead displays, speakers, flat cable breaking etc.
Years passed, Samsung "built-up" it's reputation, and after 4 SE's I bought a Samsung (newest model then), and just after few months - it got worn out, flimsy, speaker broke down, and for the end it slammed on the floor, and had to visit service because of that. While my friend stuck to SE, who's phone is like new.
This is why I have less confidence in Samsung products. I gave them 1 shot on their "reputation", and they disappointed me as much as they could.
Now when I look at the image, they don't look as bad as they actually were
There may be a day
I think it is already reality in someway..
Italian market would be great example:
Rex, Zanussi, Zoppas, AEG = Electrolux
Candy, Hoover, Zerowatt, Iberna, Rosiers = Candy
Indesit, Hotpoint, Ariston, Scholtes = Indesit
Bosch, Siemens, Neff, Gaggenau = BSH
There is more, of course, but these are 4 biggest examples.
So we have 17 names, and 4 manufacturers...
Not to mention fact, that even between those 4 is not rare to see same parts, for example Drain pump is made by independent pump company called Askoll, used in Indesit, Candy, and Electrolux machines, so we have the same drain pump for 13 brands on the market out there.
But isn't it similar in America too? Frigilux, Maypool etc?
Dex
I think it is already reality in someway..
Italian market would be great example:
Rex, Zanussi, Zoppas, AEG = Electrolux
Candy, Hoover, Zerowatt, Iberna, Rosiers = Candy
Indesit, Hotpoint, Ariston, Scholtes = Indesit
Bosch, Siemens, Neff, Gaggenau = BSH
There is more, of course, but these are 4 biggest examples.
So we have 17 names, and 4 manufacturers...
Not to mention fact, that even between those 4 is not rare to see same parts, for example Drain pump is made by independent pump company called Askoll, used in Indesit, Candy, and Electrolux machines, so we have the same drain pump for 13 brands on the market out there.
But isn't it similar in America too? Frigilux, Maypool etc?
Dex
launderess
Well-known member
One Can Sum Up State Of USA Appliance Market In A Word
Maytag.
When that famous brand was up for grabs aside from the Chinese the other other major interested party was a venture capital company. The former was simply unacceptable to many in government and the American population in general. Whilst the latter most certainly would have meant the Maytag corporation's assets would have been raped and pillaged then what was left of the corpse left to twist in the wind. With only those options on the floor Whirlpool was allowed to become a behemoth by gobbling up it's historical rival.
Strange that Whirlpool should be wailing and moaning about Asian competition. At the time they were seeking government approval of their purchase of Maytag, Whirlpool clearly stated that because of imports from China, Korea and other countries they would *not* become a monopoly and violate anti-trust laws.
Maytag.
When that famous brand was up for grabs aside from the Chinese the other other major interested party was a venture capital company. The former was simply unacceptable to many in government and the American population in general. Whilst the latter most certainly would have meant the Maytag corporation's assets would have been raped and pillaged then what was left of the corpse left to twist in the wind. With only those options on the floor Whirlpool was allowed to become a behemoth by gobbling up it's historical rival.
Strange that Whirlpool should be wailing and moaning about Asian competition. At the time they were seeking government approval of their purchase of Maytag, Whirlpool clearly stated that because of imports from China, Korea and other countries they would *not* become a monopoly and violate anti-trust laws.
In general yes...
Here for mainstream brands we have
Whirlpool: Whirlpool, Maytag, a bunch of Kenmore stuff.
LG:
Samsung:
Electrolux: Electrolux brand, frigidaire, others?
I don't count Speed Queen , Asko (just installed my new ones last night. Ah! 95C washes), Miele - they are niche brands here. Even some of the Euro brands like Asko manufacture their large machines in Asia. (I think LG builds them).
I saw something on the garden web that I thought was very appropriate:
I don't want to check my email on my washing machine but I do want it to be reliable and to clean my clothes!
(She had bought a Miele)
Here for mainstream brands we have
Whirlpool: Whirlpool, Maytag, a bunch of Kenmore stuff.
LG:
Samsung:
Electrolux: Electrolux brand, frigidaire, others?
I don't count Speed Queen , Asko (just installed my new ones last night. Ah! 95C washes
), Miele - they are niche brands here. Even some of the Euro brands like Asko manufacture their large machines in Asia. (I think LG builds them). I saw something on the garden web that I thought was very appropriate:
I don't want to check my email on my washing machine but I do want it to be reliable and to clean my clothes!
(She had bought a Miele)
launderess
Well-known member
Hunter
Don't know. Remember hearing something years ago that production of Whirlpool's "smaller" front loader was moving to Mexico and that the larger units were built in Germany but don't quote me on that.
Don't know. Remember hearing something years ago that production of Whirlpool's "smaller" front loader was moving to Mexico and that the larger units were built in Germany but don't quote me on that.
pierreandreply4
Well-known member
Still looks like it but how long will these roper estate reb
in my opinion still looks like it but how long will these last on the market wit all the fuss going on with the low rinse fill will last with all the fuss about the low fill rinse me i give these rebadge roper estate whirlpool washer a few months to a year that they will not make the charm of buyers du to the fact of the low rinse fill in my toughs see roper rinse fill thread and for consumers that still went to buy these i think they would be better off trying to find models thjat dates before they switch to low fill rinse 2009 and earlier me in my case i do not went to be stuck having to do another rinse after the main wash just because the washer in the rinse do a low fill well for me after reading more and more it made me think that when my duet go i would be better off with eather another whirlpool duet that must be better today then the 2004 generation 1 set that i have or the maytag maxima set since i eventualy went to stack the dryer on top of the washer.
http://www.roperappliances.com/spec...100&BaseModel=RTW4440VQ&SpecModelNo=RTW4440VQ
in my opinion still looks like it but how long will these last on the market wit all the fuss going on with the low rinse fill will last with all the fuss about the low fill rinse me i give these rebadge roper estate whirlpool washer a few months to a year that they will not make the charm of buyers du to the fact of the low rinse fill in my toughs see roper rinse fill thread and for consumers that still went to buy these i think they would be better off trying to find models thjat dates before they switch to low fill rinse 2009 and earlier me in my case i do not went to be stuck having to do another rinse after the main wash just because the washer in the rinse do a low fill well for me after reading more and more it made me think that when my duet go i would be better off with eather another whirlpool duet that must be better today then the 2004 generation 1 set that i have or the maytag maxima set since i eventualy went to stack the dryer on top of the washer.
http://www.roperappliances.com/spec...100&BaseModel=RTW4440VQ&SpecModelNo=RTW4440VQ
Late to the game on this thread, but....
To answer a couple recent questions, YES, Whirlpool does indeed manufacture washers in the U.S. and NO, not just low end stuff.
Clyde Ohio, the largest source of washers in the country and possibly the world is making the last of the low-end DirectDrive washers, AND the new belt-drive top loaders and Cabrios. THEY ARE ALSO NOW MAKING NEW FRONT LOADERS and lots of them. I believe the smaller Duet Sports are still imported. The vast majority of WP laundry (including their other brands and house names) are all U.S. made.
As to dumping, regardless of whether WP deserves to be dumped on with perceptions of low quality of Duets (never had use for one myself) the business definition of dumping involves unfair cost competition OR purposeful selling below cost or margin in order to strangle competitors.
Though the discussion can go on for hours/days about why consumers buy what, or whether or not a company's products are complete crap or not, dumping refers to a seller offering their product in a market, in large and long-term quantity, at less than its appropriate price in order to unfairly drive others from the market.
This is a difficult case to prove, but when Asian manufacturers, whose workers earn in one year what Americans do in a week or a few weeks, have such lower and different cost structures (there are even much less restrictive laws in some parts of Asia regarding metal prep solvents, paints, and other chemical disposal and storage which greatly affect cost here) it becomes difficult if not impossible for U.S. manufacturers to compete effectively without lowering quality. Quality does not come free, in fact it can often be VERY expensive to maintain.
In my view, we as Americans or even Western world residents outside the U.S. have to think very carefully about our buying decisions. Is the $659 Samsung really worth the price over the $789 WP? Though I don't want to throw around the $130, we cannot deny that the Samsung was made with cheaper labor and labor laws, it was built using parts and supplies that are not regulated by departments such as the EPA and OSHA, etc. and its largest cost is often transportation to market!!! What this boils down to is Westerners expecting to continue to absorb all the benefits we have, but take advantage of lower cost goods made in other parts of the world where such benefits are not available. These benefits won't be here either at some point if we don't wake up.
We have what we have in the western world because we built it ourselves in the 20th century. If we keep bleeding money to other parts of the globe, we drive cracks into the foundation of what used to hold up our economy, which is manufacturing jobs and infrastructure, and we risk our identities, and our lifestyle.
Personally I would never purchase a Samsung anything, nor have I ever owned a foreign car or large appliance. I sometimes wonder about buying certain goods if we are encouraging mediocrity by favoring local or U.S. supplies, but I simply don't believe the alternative is worth even a trial. We can't keep sending our monies off-shore indefinitely without eventually loosing the whole of who we are.
There are societies on this earth who want to take over the western world. We MUST maintain our self-sufficience in order to sustain ourselves and defend. We DO NOT need washers made in Korea.
If WP can prove dumping, I say "more power to them, let the field of competition be fair and level and nothing but, and let the consumer make their choice by what is best, not by what is subsidized".
Gordon
To answer a couple recent questions, YES, Whirlpool does indeed manufacture washers in the U.S. and NO, not just low end stuff.
Clyde Ohio, the largest source of washers in the country and possibly the world is making the last of the low-end DirectDrive washers, AND the new belt-drive top loaders and Cabrios. THEY ARE ALSO NOW MAKING NEW FRONT LOADERS and lots of them. I believe the smaller Duet Sports are still imported. The vast majority of WP laundry (including their other brands and house names) are all U.S. made.
As to dumping, regardless of whether WP deserves to be dumped on with perceptions of low quality of Duets (never had use for one myself) the business definition of dumping involves unfair cost competition OR purposeful selling below cost or margin in order to strangle competitors.
Though the discussion can go on for hours/days about why consumers buy what, or whether or not a company's products are complete crap or not, dumping refers to a seller offering their product in a market, in large and long-term quantity, at less than its appropriate price in order to unfairly drive others from the market.
This is a difficult case to prove, but when Asian manufacturers, whose workers earn in one year what Americans do in a week or a few weeks, have such lower and different cost structures (there are even much less restrictive laws in some parts of Asia regarding metal prep solvents, paints, and other chemical disposal and storage which greatly affect cost here) it becomes difficult if not impossible for U.S. manufacturers to compete effectively without lowering quality. Quality does not come free, in fact it can often be VERY expensive to maintain.
In my view, we as Americans or even Western world residents outside the U.S. have to think very carefully about our buying decisions. Is the $659 Samsung really worth the price over the $789 WP? Though I don't want to throw around the $130, we cannot deny that the Samsung was made with cheaper labor and labor laws, it was built using parts and supplies that are not regulated by departments such as the EPA and OSHA, etc. and its largest cost is often transportation to market!!! What this boils down to is Westerners expecting to continue to absorb all the benefits we have, but take advantage of lower cost goods made in other parts of the world where such benefits are not available. These benefits won't be here either at some point if we don't wake up.
We have what we have in the western world because we built it ourselves in the 20th century. If we keep bleeding money to other parts of the globe, we drive cracks into the foundation of what used to hold up our economy, which is manufacturing jobs and infrastructure, and we risk our identities, and our lifestyle.
Personally I would never purchase a Samsung anything, nor have I ever owned a foreign car or large appliance. I sometimes wonder about buying certain goods if we are encouraging mediocrity by favoring local or U.S. supplies, but I simply don't believe the alternative is worth even a trial. We can't keep sending our monies off-shore indefinitely without eventually loosing the whole of who we are.
There are societies on this earth who want to take over the western world. We MUST maintain our self-sufficience in order to sustain ourselves and defend. We DO NOT need washers made in Korea.
If WP can prove dumping, I say "more power to them, let the field of competition be fair and level and nothing but, and let the consumer make their choice by what is best, not by what is subsidized".
Gordon
Gordon
I agree.
The places where I buy out of US I try and buy first world.
It is NOT snobbery, but how can I, in clear conscience, purchase goods that are made with the blood of others in them? Not to mention environmental degredation.
Sometimes, however, there isn't an alternative, mostly in clothing though there ARE still some relatively affordable domestic clothing being made.
I agree.
The places where I buy out of US I try and buy first world.
It is NOT snobbery, but how can I, in clear conscience, purchase goods that are made with the blood of others in them? Not to mention environmental degredation.
Sometimes, however, there isn't an alternative, mostly in clothing though there ARE still some relatively affordable domestic clothing being made.
dj-gabriele
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,685
buy first world
Well said! It resumes my philosophy!
I start with buying local (like fruits and vegetables form the local market)
then buy Italian (appliances, clothing, generic groceries and "services")
then again European and so on.
And I check, for what I can that the product is really made where it's stated and not just assembled or imported and finished/labeled.
Well said! It resumes my philosophy!
I start with buying local (like fruits and vegetables form the local market)
then buy Italian (appliances, clothing, generic groceries and "services")
then again European and so on.
And I check, for what I can that the product is really made where it's stated and not just assembled or imported and finished/labeled.
Yes.
I have zero issues with third world countries - or any country - rising and doing better for itself.
Lots of people say 'well if the folks who work in these hell hole factories didn't have these jobs they would have no jobs at all.' But since in most instances the owners of said factories are ones that fled the first world so they could sell products at less money and make a bigger product, I have little sympathy for the business owners.
You can look in most shops and find goods that are made in countries with no or lax environmental laws, bad labor practice, and you might as well see them covered with blood - because it is the blood (injuries, death by accident, premature death) of the workers on them, and the toxins dumped in the environment that just kill and maim more people and other creatures.
I'm a raving capitalist libertarian BUT TO ME despoiling the environment is NOT the way to 'make money' except in the shortest of terms. [To me, the whole 'environmental' movement in too many instances is NOT people who want to save the world, but rather, people who hate humans . But that's another discussion].
I have zero issues with third world countries - or any country - rising and doing better for itself.
Lots of people say 'well if the folks who work in these hell hole factories didn't have these jobs they would have no jobs at all.' But since in most instances the owners of said factories are ones that fled the first world so they could sell products at less money and make a bigger product, I have little sympathy for the business owners.
You can look in most shops and find goods that are made in countries with no or lax environmental laws, bad labor practice, and you might as well see them covered with blood - because it is the blood (injuries, death by accident, premature death) of the workers on them, and the toxins dumped in the environment that just kill and maim more people and other creatures.
I'm a raving capitalist libertarian BUT TO ME despoiling the environment is NOT the way to 'make money' except in the shortest of terms. [To me, the whole 'environmental' movement in too many instances is NOT people who want to save the world, but rather, people who hate humans . But that's another discussion].
Asia isn't the only one cheap out there
In Europe here, for example there is big difference between how a worker costs.
So, few years ago Candy stopped producing tumble dryers in UK, and made greenfield investment in Turkey, in which labor costs much less. Still in Turkey, there are all regulations same as in UK, people work 8hours a day, have weekend, no blood, or anything else.. everything pretty similar just for less money.
When I first heared that they are mooving to Turkey, I was disgusted, said that there is NO way I will ever buy it... But then dryers from the new factory came on the market, better built than when they were in UK... What happened? For the same price (being price-competitive seems to be most important) instead of investing in people, they gave more money in higher quality parts (and kept some in their pocket too).
So, those international companies got the deal of the century - better for less, almost too good to be true.. They just have to leave their "mother" country.
I don't know if they should be judged, and I don't know how to fight against that (cause there is more and more...)
What do you think?
Dex
In Europe here, for example there is big difference between how a worker costs.
So, few years ago Candy stopped producing tumble dryers in UK, and made greenfield investment in Turkey, in which labor costs much less. Still in Turkey, there are all regulations same as in UK, people work 8hours a day, have weekend, no blood, or anything else.. everything pretty similar just for less money.
When I first heared that they are mooving to Turkey, I was disgusted, said that there is NO way I will ever buy it... But then dryers from the new factory came on the market, better built than when they were in UK... What happened? For the same price (being price-competitive seems to be most important) instead of investing in people, they gave more money in higher quality parts (and kept some in their pocket too).
So, those international companies got the deal of the century - better for less, almost too good to be true.. They just have to leave their "mother" country.
I don't know if they should be judged, and I don't know how to fight against that (cause there is more and more...)
What do you think?
Dex
Of course.
Asia isn't the only cheap labor destination; lots of South America and Africa are, too.
It is a tough one. If you make (say) appliances and want to sell them in your home market AND in lower cost ones, it's a tough thing to decide what to do.
Of course, given that it is looking more and more likely the world is lurching toward a major war (think '1935' at this point) it'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out won't it?
Asia isn't the only cheap labor destination; lots of South America and Africa are, too.
It is a tough one. If you make (say) appliances and want to sell them in your home market AND in lower cost ones, it's a tough thing to decide what to do.
Of course, given that it is looking more and more likely the world is lurching toward a major war (think '1935' at this point) it'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out won't it?
That's just it.. When you have workers at Foxconn in China threatening mass suicide because of poor working conditions, how can anyone in good conscience buy something made from that factory?
If I see something which is built with higher quality parts and labour and it is superior to the competition when it comes to warranty, construction, durability, effectiveness and so forth, I'll buy it if it costs more... because I know I won't have to buy it again.
If it happens to be built in the States, I'd rather buy that because it'll have more supportability and better warranty service. Personally, I'd prefer to buy a Canadian built washer, but that's just me.
If it does mean paying more, I'll pay more... but I know I'll be getting service and supportability for that extra cash.
If I see something which is built with higher quality parts and labour and it is superior to the competition when it comes to warranty, construction, durability, effectiveness and so forth, I'll buy it if it costs more... because I know I won't have to buy it again.
If it happens to be built in the States, I'd rather buy that because it'll have more supportability and better warranty service. Personally, I'd prefer to buy a Canadian built washer, but that's just me.
If it does mean paying more, I'll pay more... but I know I'll be getting service and supportability for that extra cash.
you ARE from Canada so that makes sense
People talk about protecting national interests as though it were something terrible. "Oh you're just a jingoist!" "Oh, you're just a nationalist!"
My country - all our nations - are of no help to its citizens or to each other if they aren't strong and healthy. Look at the USA: it has gutted its industrial base, has been living on capital consumption for years, now it is the largest debtor nation with A NATIONAL BUDGET DEFICIT HALF THE SIZE OF THE GERMANY ECONOMY.
That is insane. It is no help to the USA or to the world to allow this to happen, and we only have ourselves to blame.
Oh, there is a lot of greed by MBAs,no doubt. But ultimately because there is no viable alternatives to the powers that be (please, the Democrat and Republican parties are so similar as to be one party), the idea of business value has moved from creating wealth and shareholder value only to shareholder value (and at that, only preferred stock holders NOT common stock). But enough of that rant.
There is nothing wrong with patriotism and national pride. One thing *I* am proud of in the USA is that, as a nation, we don't hide our problems, nor do we deny they exist . This makes most of the rest of the advanced world (particularly some European countries) laugh at us, but, heck, we are willing to examine ourselves and make things better as we can. We have a long way to go. But we are trying!
People talk about protecting national interests as though it were something terrible. "Oh you're just a jingoist!" "Oh, you're just a nationalist!"
My country - all our nations - are of no help to its citizens or to each other if they aren't strong and healthy. Look at the USA: it has gutted its industrial base, has been living on capital consumption for years, now it is the largest debtor nation with A NATIONAL BUDGET DEFICIT HALF THE SIZE OF THE GERMANY ECONOMY.
That is insane. It is no help to the USA or to the world to allow this to happen, and we only have ourselves to blame.
Oh, there is a lot of greed by MBAs,no doubt. But ultimately because there is no viable alternatives to the powers that be (please, the Democrat and Republican parties are so similar as to be one party), the idea of business value has moved from creating wealth and shareholder value only to shareholder value (and at that, only preferred stock holders NOT common stock). But enough of that rant.
There is nothing wrong with patriotism and national pride. One thing *I* am proud of in the USA is that, as a nation, we don't hide our problems, nor do we deny they exist . This makes most of the rest of the advanced world (particularly some European countries) laugh at us, but, heck, we are willing to examine ourselves and make things better as we can. We have a long way to go. But we are trying!
Those who watch the Asian manufacturing sectors have begun to notice trends of factories moving to emerging markets like those just springing up in Africa. Recently, the largest shoe maker in the world announced that they are moving from Guangdong, China to Africa. Cheaper labor and availability of resources will draw the factories just as they once did in Thailand, China and elsewhere. The interesting thing to see is that as Chinese economic trends move from a manufacturing baseline to a more diverse model with a base in consumption, workers who have literally been lifted out of subsistence level existence will demand more and better. The recent suicide threat - for better pay - in China worked because of the ancient values of honor and "saving face" as we like to call it. In a country of 1.3 billion people, getting attention in the state-run media isn't easy. Drama sells, just like everywhere else in the world. Curious about the much reported suicides at Foxconn in 2010, I did some further reading and at the factory in Shenzhen, nearly 400,000 people are employed and the suicide rates are no higher there than in a normal U.S. city of similar size. At the recent Wuhan factory protest/threat, the company offered all owed pay and benefits to those who wished to resign and leave. Only a small percentage left, the rest went back to work. They largely got what they demanded of the company and it's fascinating to see the workers finding their voice, just as those in the U.S. and Europe did in our industrial revolution.
Maytag sourced some models of Neptune front-load washers from Samsung when the Korean based company was just emerging into the U.S. market. Maytag agreed to provide service for Samsung branded products which Whirlpool inherited with their acquisition of Maytag. By the time this agreement ran it's course, Samsung had become one of the top selling brands and this interim arrangement gave them the time to develop their own networks.
General Electric sourced their front-load washers from the Little Swan Washing Machine Company, and still do. Little Swan is a subsidiary of Midea, Corp. (Chinese company - no relation to Samsung or LG) the worlds third (or fourth) largest appliance maker. GE saw the need to be competitive in the booming front-load washer market so they naturally looked to imports to fill the gap. Asko has done this as well with their large-sized laundry products.
It's important to understand that although Whirlpool is a U.S. based company, imports must be a part of the manufacturing equation in order to remain competitive on the world stage. All of the brands; U.S., European, Asian all source parts from Asia, Mexico, etc. Pull the control board out of any washer, dryer, dishwasher and look at the country of origin. Motor manufacturing is almost entirely dominated by Chinese companies. You need a motor for a new washer design? The odds are more than 85% that the motor will be made in Asia. Sourcing parts from many factories all over the globe has it's benefits but also it's costs. If one factory assembles the control boards, where are all the component parts made? In the next room or building? Not a chance. They're made by many factories all over the globe sourced by the assembler to the specs given. Your KitchenAid dishwasher bursts into flames during the main wash, it can take many hours of forensic work to determine the offending component on the board and many more hours to trace the origin of that particular component and what went wrong in it's production. From a cost-analysis standpoint, you can put out that fire and move forward but we will see these types of incidents and problems over and over. The truth is we always have. WCI made Skinny-Mini washer/dryer units had reports of fires caused by over-sudsing in the washer. Suds sloshed down into the cabinet and into the motor. Maytag dishwashers, not all that long ago, had leaky rinse-aid dispensers that caused fires in the wiring. Hobart KitchenAid dishwashers were notorious for leaky detergent dispensers that would drip onto the bi-metal springs and short, causing a melt-down hot enough to burn holes in the metal panel of the door. Bad welds on drums of washing machines caused them to fly apart in spin and destroy the entire machine and possibly the rooms they were located in. Broken door glass reports in front-load washers. And the beat goes on...
Hunter is correct in that we are trying. Jon (jetcone) has been saying for years that though the trend is moving manufacturing offshore, our resurgence is coming and we'll once again be at the top. Perhaps not in appliance manufacturing, that trend looks to be solidly set in a disposable mentality, at least for now.
Maytag sourced some models of Neptune front-load washers from Samsung when the Korean based company was just emerging into the U.S. market. Maytag agreed to provide service for Samsung branded products which Whirlpool inherited with their acquisition of Maytag. By the time this agreement ran it's course, Samsung had become one of the top selling brands and this interim arrangement gave them the time to develop their own networks.
General Electric sourced their front-load washers from the Little Swan Washing Machine Company, and still do. Little Swan is a subsidiary of Midea, Corp. (Chinese company - no relation to Samsung or LG) the worlds third (or fourth) largest appliance maker. GE saw the need to be competitive in the booming front-load washer market so they naturally looked to imports to fill the gap. Asko has done this as well with their large-sized laundry products.
It's important to understand that although Whirlpool is a U.S. based company, imports must be a part of the manufacturing equation in order to remain competitive on the world stage. All of the brands; U.S., European, Asian all source parts from Asia, Mexico, etc. Pull the control board out of any washer, dryer, dishwasher and look at the country of origin. Motor manufacturing is almost entirely dominated by Chinese companies. You need a motor for a new washer design? The odds are more than 85% that the motor will be made in Asia. Sourcing parts from many factories all over the globe has it's benefits but also it's costs. If one factory assembles the control boards, where are all the component parts made? In the next room or building? Not a chance. They're made by many factories all over the globe sourced by the assembler to the specs given. Your KitchenAid dishwasher bursts into flames during the main wash, it can take many hours of forensic work to determine the offending component on the board and many more hours to trace the origin of that particular component and what went wrong in it's production. From a cost-analysis standpoint, you can put out that fire and move forward but we will see these types of incidents and problems over and over. The truth is we always have. WCI made Skinny-Mini washer/dryer units had reports of fires caused by over-sudsing in the washer. Suds sloshed down into the cabinet and into the motor. Maytag dishwashers, not all that long ago, had leaky rinse-aid dispensers that caused fires in the wiring. Hobart KitchenAid dishwashers were notorious for leaky detergent dispensers that would drip onto the bi-metal springs and short, causing a melt-down hot enough to burn holes in the metal panel of the door. Bad welds on drums of washing machines caused them to fly apart in spin and destroy the entire machine and possibly the rooms they were located in. Broken door glass reports in front-load washers. And the beat goes on...
Hunter is correct in that we are trying. Jon (jetcone) has been saying for years that though the trend is moving manufacturing offshore, our resurgence is coming and we'll once again be at the top. Perhaps not in appliance manufacturing, that trend looks to be solidly set in a disposable mentality, at least for now.
I believe that the factors which will return some manufacturing to the USA will be increasing fuel costs to transport stuff made off shore to our domestic market and, as has been mentioned, the rising labor costs in countries where "our" corporations moved production to save money. They are not really our corporations because they have no loyalty to our country or our people: jobs moved, factories shut, don't want to pay taxes, end of story. Maybe if the new health care plan reduces a corporation's cost for employee health care, workers from the United States will be seen as less of a liability to their employers. The various "Free Trade" laws passed by our government stacked the cards against US workers. I think that some people in power are beginning to see that if our workers don't have jobs with incomes comparable to the ones they lost, they won't be able to participate in our economy and it will not get better. For too long, we have been sucking on the straw and have not thought about who was going to pour more drink in the glass or even if we had any for replacement. The noises from the bottom of the glass are getting too loud to ignore.
I'll just leave this here...
Would you pay $1100 for an iPad 2? If it were manufactured in the US, you would.
http://bit.ly/khUHn7
Would you pay $1100 for an iPad 2? If it were manufactured in the US, you would.
http://bit.ly/khUHn7
Greg makes a good point
no, many good points. But the truth is when manufacturing a commodity the lower labor market will win. America being a pioneer founded country needs to return to her roots today. Industry and Government has taken the easy way out for the last 40 years and the results are showing today.
The future of Earth and humanity lies out beyond our world, the cradle is full of people and the airable land is shrinking. America has always led in the advanced technologies partly due to our shared values of education and pioneering. America should be focused on what it does best, pioneering space exploration. Why? For two reasons: 1) Even if we dont' succeed in living out there (which I doubt ) we will along the way develop advanced technologies which will give us an edge in application and manufacturing.
In short the "global economy" has forced us into the position that we need to continually manufacture products that are not commodities for the global economy. Products and services that are called "toll bridge" businesses. Toll bridge business make things that you can get no where else and so they can charge a premium and they must manufacture in the most advanced places.
An ipad is a commodity.
no, many good points. But the truth is when manufacturing a commodity the lower labor market will win. America being a pioneer founded country needs to return to her roots today. Industry and Government has taken the easy way out for the last 40 years and the results are showing today.
The future of Earth and humanity lies out beyond our world, the cradle is full of people and the airable land is shrinking. America has always led in the advanced technologies partly due to our shared values of education and pioneering. America should be focused on what it does best, pioneering space exploration. Why? For two reasons: 1) Even if we dont' succeed in living out there (which I doubt ) we will along the way develop advanced technologies which will give us an edge in application and manufacturing.
In short the "global economy" has forced us into the position that we need to continually manufacture products that are not commodities for the global economy. Products and services that are called "toll bridge" businesses. Toll bridge business make things that you can get no where else and so they can charge a premium and they must manufacture in the most advanced places.
An ipad is a commodity.
Now what would be the end game
is this: Ford has learned the hard way, but is starting to accede its competitors. It as mostly robotized its Rouge River Plant.
If America develops advanced robotics, then if you were to build a completely robotic manufacturing plant here for washing machines, you would take the local market. Because a robot is cheaper than any labor force. And so the determining cost in a product would the location of natural resources and the cost of shipping that product to market. Game Point!
is this: Ford has learned the hard way, but is starting to accede its competitors. It as mostly robotized its Rouge River Plant.
If America develops advanced robotics, then if you were to build a completely robotic manufacturing plant here for washing machines, you would take the local market. Because a robot is cheaper than any labor force. And so the determining cost in a product would the location of natural resources and the cost of shipping that product to market. Game Point!
To Jetcone
Unforutnately, White goods are a commodity. Washers, Dryers, Fridges, Stoves and Dishwashers... It's only a matter of time before GE, Whirlpool and WCI are forced to move all of their manufacturing to someplace low cost, like China or Africa.
The only thing stopping them I think are stiff tariffs. That's why the Japanese are building vehicles in North America, but designing them in Japan. Ford is running into this as well, at least to some degree, with their European Imports.
When you look at the technology which goes into Speed Queen Top Loaders, they're absolutely ancient in comparison to what everyone else is cranking out. Now, Quality is a whole different story. Sometimes older technology "Just works". It also keeps the costs down and the quality high too.
However, Mechanical vs Electronic stuff is a whole other thread.
Unforutnately, White goods are a commodity. Washers, Dryers, Fridges, Stoves and Dishwashers... It's only a matter of time before GE, Whirlpool and WCI are forced to move all of their manufacturing to someplace low cost, like China or Africa.
The only thing stopping them I think are stiff tariffs. That's why the Japanese are building vehicles in North America, but designing them in Japan. Ford is running into this as well, at least to some degree, with their European Imports.
When you look at the technology which goes into Speed Queen Top Loaders, they're absolutely ancient in comparison to what everyone else is cranking out. Now, Quality is a whole different story. Sometimes older technology "Just works". It also keeps the costs down and the quality high too.
However, Mechanical vs Electronic stuff is a whole other thread.
I agree
Sometimes you just can't reinvent the wheel!
But mechanical vs electronic is a WHOLE other thread!!
Sometimes you just can't reinvent the wheel!
But mechanical vs electronic is a WHOLE other thread!!
pierreandreply4
Well-known member
my toughs on this
I do not know why but my toughts are and i agree that mechanic vs electronique is another thread but i have a feeling that if we went washers that are going to last a lot more than just 10 years there will be a high demand for refurbish second hand washer from use appliance stores and sometime i wonder why not build the washers of today but with the tech and qualaty that washers had during the 1950 to 2000? hum sometime i wonder and after reading this thread my toughts is making me think that sometime for my next daily driver washer dryer that i should buy second hand refurbish washer dryer set kind of likr the 19 70 inglis washer model with dial skirt.
I do not know why but my toughts are and i agree that mechanic vs electronique is another thread but i have a feeling that if we went washers that are going to last a lot more than just 10 years there will be a high demand for refurbish second hand washer from use appliance stores and sometime i wonder why not build the washers of today but with the tech and qualaty that washers had during the 1950 to 2000? hum sometime i wonder and after reading this thread my toughts is making me think that sometime for my next daily driver washer dryer that i should buy second hand refurbish washer dryer set kind of likr the 19 70 inglis washer model with dial skirt.
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