Whirlpool's new dishwasher motors

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murando531

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Augusta, Georgia - US
I was in Lowe's today, and for whatever reason a new Whirlpool dishwasher was upside down on a dolly. Not sure if it was a display or what, but the door was bent. I took the opportunity to scope out the underside since I've never seen the motor assembly in person, but I didn't get to sneak pictures.

I have to say, I knew that WP was putting much, much less powerful motors in their line along with their KitchenAid and Kenmore models, but I was shocked to realize that the main wash pump is literally a slightly larger induction motor, identical to the motors being used as the independent drain pumps in washers and dishwashers.

It makes sense now why they can't use all arms at once, or have a chopper blade equipped; they simply don't have the power. This is also the same motor type that is used in fountain pumps, and the one that sometimes makes sort of a chatter when kicking on in your washer/dw during drains because the magnetic pulses kick the rotor back and forth rapidly until it has enough momentum to spin in one direction or the other. On one hand it's to be expected with the energy "issues" these days, but I would never think that a glorified drain pump would have the power needed to put out good volume and pressure from the spray arms in a dishwasher.

This also makes me wonder that if you put your ear down next to the machine when it starts up, will you hear that telltale chatter that induction motors sometimes make? I'd also like to hear anyone's experience with these models, as this type of motor typically isn't supposed to run more than a little while at a time.

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I also looked up the drain pump for my 2012 Whirlpool washer, and posted pictures below. They almost look identical, and according to the ratings on the labels they almost are. The times I've pulled the hose over into the tub to recirculate water when deep cleaning the machine, the volume and pressure coming out are okay, but they're just a trickle in comparison to the power of the AC motors found in the previous gen WPs and current Maytags.

Now I wish someone I know would install one just so I could run a GoPro inside it and see how they truly perform inside, and so I could hear what one sounds like of course.

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Those aren't even "statue pissing into pond" motors. Unless you can tolerate your statue pissing 10min out of every hour and absolutely no more. They are extremely inefficient, a figure of merit worse than the previous shaded-pole small pump motor.

Note the duty cycle on the label(s). Absolutely no more than 50%, and as low as 20%. That's because they get SO HOT in those short operating times they are in danger of smoking the coil insulation.

The 'Maytag Man' had one out of the coinop Neptune downstairs, accidentally touched the motor part and it burned the tihs out of him. You could even SMELL how hot it was.

Manufacturers love them. There are no bearings and no seals. There's not even a shaft. I can't imagine using that style motor as a dishwasher pump unless it was drain only.
 
Interesting Topic

I also noticed from the label that the motor is made in Italy.
I'm also curious about the 15 on/15 off label. It strikes me as a bit undersized for a recirculating pump. Perhaps it is a clue as to why the door was bent...

Malcolm

On a side note, Askoll builds pumps for almost every manufacturer out there...

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I beleive the limited duty shaded pole pump motor was for draining the tank only.It would only run during the drain cycle.There isn't even the little "tin fan" on the motor to help cool it.Remember in days past these had the little tin fans on them.But the so called dishwasher wash pump motor not much better power wise than the drain motor.SAD-Won't buy ANY new dishwasher if this is what you get.This is getting really low!!
 
If speed queen made dishwashers... I don't think we would be seeing this on their machines. Just when I when the pumps couldn't get tinier they have.

Im going to be honest, consumers are catching on. I hear more complaints in stores about how long the new machines take to finish. One lady put it well "I just want a dishwasher like my old one", when the sales guy said she would have to clean the filter at the bottom of the thing.
 
80W recirc pump???

OK? I mean, don't get me wrong, but even our A+++ -10% DW still use pumps 150W or more. This is a joke.
Especially, if I think about it, DW with varibale speed/presure/power pumps now run down to the 500€ price range, I can't get that. These units can change speed and thus usage and power. They are like the brushless motor to washers: Silenter, more efficent, over all more durable and more flexible. So, using these pumps (and Askoll produces such as well as far as I know) allows you to do a long, low pressure wash profile as well as a power blast. And they are not a thing that would launch prices...
 
I guess that would also explain why the manuals on the new WP/KM/KA dishwashers state that "Your new dishwasher will pause periodically to allow the detergent to soak". I guess if it didn't, these little pumps would burn out quickly.

Like someone said earlier, I never thought I'd see this type motor used for anything BUT draining, because there's simply no power behind them. They work well for that purpose, but they are slower at getting the job of emptying the machine than previous systems.

I wish I had gotten pictures of the upside down dishwasher. The pictures you see on the internet are misleading, because the camera angles make it seem larger. In person it's almost pitiful. There's alot of empty space under these machines, that's for sure.
 
Well we got what we wanted?

Right?

So much for being green or efficient. I'm 1.5 hours into a 3 hour cycle on the eco-sanctioned GE.

It pauses too throughout the cycle. All the manual says is this is "normal" operation but I suspect as noted above that the cheap made someplace else besides here motor just can't handle running full chat for 3 hours.
 
Ouch...

I honestly think the future of dishwasher motors will be similar to the ones used in pond-pumps... Those use a magnetic casing, and impeller, so the impeller itself becomes a motor and pump.

 

This is the method used in the DishDrawer. It might only draw <100w of power, but it moves PLENTY of water around (single wash-arm - but not a "rain shower," its more like a thunderstorm), never has to stop to let the water return to the sump, and it doesn't seem to mind gobbling rice every now and then. 

 

 
 
Which is why I plan to take care of my Maytag MDB4709 so that it lasts as long as it possibly can. I also plan to find a WP PowerClean model to restore. I'd love a Hobart KitchenAid or a Maytag Reverse-Rack, but realistically it would be harder to maintain with the scarcity of parts now, much less 10-20 years from now. I'd use it as the daily driver since they're easy to work on, and if for some reason down the road I have difficulty finding parts, I'd have the Maytag. Granted, this is the plan unless the industry turns itself around and starts building quality machines again. With real motors.
 
In all fairness, though, size ain't everything.  

Dishwashers have developed a little bit since they were first introduced. The big ol' tub with the impeller at the bottom is gone. Today's dishwashers have narrow water paths, spray jets that aim at the dishes and not the tub, tubs and sumps designed to allow water to flow into the pump quickly and quietly. Computers simulate the water flow and engineers can virtually redesign components that cause unwanted turbulence in the water. It's a similar thing with vacuum cleaners: in Europe, we're used to vacuums with 2.000 and more watts motors, when most US vacuums have much less than that. Still, I don't think all of your carpets are dirty (powerheads aside). When Bosch released its new platform, the wattage of the pump was reduced but the overall water circulation increased by 130 gallons because several parts were redesigned.

I'm wondering if these long cycles are an American (or even a Whirlpool) phenomenon. European dishwashers have more powerful heaters, maybe that's what helps them to be faster. On the other hand, they usually run off a cold-water connection. Whirlpool's fastest wash cycle is the One Hour Wash that excludes a drying portion. My Bosch does a load in 55 minutes with drying. V-Zug takes 45 minutes for two washes, two rinses and drying. Now, those are of course not the Eco cycles but they still use less than the One Hour Wash. It really seems Whirlpool started making some slow dishwashers. I don't think Maytags or GEs are that slow.

Today, I ran across one of these Miele Professional dishwashers that look just like a domestic machine. These circulate 50 gpm. It was a showroom model but still sold for over 2.000 Euros. The new undercounter models even go up to 105 gpm. How much did tje old Hobarts blast through their wash arms?
 
The picture illustrates

the actual wash pump & motor that is used in Whirlpool tall tub dishwashers since 2011. (There is a separate drain pump motor) Certain models operate both wash arms simultaneously. Others have a flow diverter that allows the wash arms to work independently with a smaller amount of water per fill.

As noted in Logixx message, the filter based wash systems of today are quite different from machines of the past. However, they are more than capable of performing their task. Like any dishwasher, properly installed, dishes racked with some common sense and good detergent and rinse aid..........you'll get clean dishes with modest water & energy use.

...L.P.

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Size Certainly ISN'T Everyting

Logixx, this is pretty much 100% correct. 

 

If the machine's efficiency in circulation is improved, from better circulation pathways and sprayers, to better filter screens, then water flow can theoretically be increased, and cycles shortened, even with decreasing amounts of water. 

 

As Glenn said, a 60w, 3-phase pump at 80v is more than enough to create a thunderstorm in the DishDrawer, yet the machine uses about 2.3L per fill. 

The design is clearly evolved enough to move the water where it's needed and still produce remarkable results. 

As I've stated time after time, I can get great results in just 60 minutes, without resorting to "heavy" cycles. Given three rinses, it isn't exactly frugal, however. 
 
It's not really the size that is the issue, but rather the type of motor they decided to use. These induction motors have very low power output in relation to the amount of energy they run on. The full-sized AC motor in the new Maytag is rated at 2.7 amps, but it has a very nice brute force output, running at almost 1/3 HP, so in the sense of power vs. energy consumed, it's very efficient, and can run for a long time without needing to cool. The PowerClean outputs 1/3 HP at 5.3 amps, if that gives any idea of the improvement. The motor used in the new WP is only a slightly more involved version of aquarium/pond pumps, which are a simple impeller attached to a cylindrical magnet, inserted into a water tight hub. They work well for continuous use in aquariums and ponds because they're submerged and water cooled as the water can move between the magnet cylinder and hub. In this machine however, they're not under water, and even if they were hot water in a dishwasher can't cool them.

They work tremendously as drain pumps on appliances because they only have to run for maybe five minutes at most. There is no need for force or high pressure because it only needs to move the water from point A to point B.

Maybe it's an attack of nostalgia for me, because I always loved Whirlpool PowerClean and Point Voyager dishwashers that upon looking "under the hood", there's a nice hefty motor there to greet you, and yet while they were powerful and could chew up any food you could throw in, they were also quiet and efficient. It's depressing that what made me fall in love with Whirlpool has now been reduced to a lawn sprinkler in a box.
 
And those older DW and washer motors had FANS in them to keep them cool-and could run CONTINUOSLY!Fan in those motors was simple but effective-fins cast into the motor rotors shorting rings!Give me a big motor in the dishwasher and short cycle-happy owner-wimpy,tiny,overheating motor in a modern dishwasher-makes me want to take the stupid thing to the plinking section of the shooting range and use it AS A TARGET!!!!Then just do the dishes by hand.I can do mine in well under 3hrs-and no overheating motor worries!
 
The wash

motor does in fact run continuously. Any pauses during the wash and rinse periods are determined by the machine control. Additionally, the wash motor powers up very smoothly and does not "chatter".

I seem to recall a AW.org member or two, recently installed a machine equipped like this. Perhaps, they'll chime in with actual fact based user experience & comments.
"You" toober has an overview as linked.

...L.P.

 
My Kitchenaid is a year old and doesn't have a pump like that.  It still uses a squatty vertical shaft pump with a four blade chopper.  The motor doesn't run continuously, but it only stops for a few seconds when it is sensing. 

All three arms  run at the same time..  Only time the upper arms don't run is when the pro scrub is active.  Normal cycle with normal soil choosing sani rinse is about 90 minutes.
 
I looked on

Repair Clinic for the dishwasher I just got because I was curious to see what the motor looked like and there is no motor listed under parts. Interestingly enough the control panel is out of stock which isn't a good sign, maybe??. I think I'm going to put a camera in mine to see what it looks like running. Mine has the chopper too and I think all arms run at once. So all the new WP dishwashers including Maytag & KA use the same motors?
 
mark_wpduet, your dishwasher still uses the same 2.7 amp motor that the Whirlpool Point Voyager used, although I'm pretty sure they've improved it a bit. Even the new Maytag that was just released uses almost the same motor, or else they would not have been able to use the chopper blade or run all wash arms at once, nor would they be able to tout the feature of "having the most powerful motor in the industry". Try appliancepartspros.com; the site is a little easier to navigate and I haven't found anything yet that wasn't available besides photos of the parts listed.

iheartmaytag - I would check the manufacture date on your KitchenAid's model and serial. Vertical shaft pumps have not been used in any Whirlpool built machines since the transition from the PowerClean module to the Point Voyager tall tub configuration, and that was around 2009-10. There was no Pro-Scrub/Power Scour/Turbo Zone (KitchenAid, Whirlpool, Kenmore respectively) rear-tub mounted sprayer introduced until the tall tub was around for a couple of years. If yours is a tall tub that still has a disposal blade, you probably caught the last of the Point Voyager version as they were being phased out, but it is still a horizontal shaft, although the motor is much larger than the one being used in the new WP/KA resource saver models.
 
I bought the KA Feb  2013, was supposed to have been a 2012 model.  

 

Four arm lower wash arm, Pro-scrub zone in the back, tall tub, 

"Food disposer based wash system has four stainless steel blades to grind food particles which are flushed down the drain at the end of they cycle. "  It had current specs through the first of this year.  Now that model is showing the filtered wash system. 

 

I do know it was a vertical shaft motor, I was the one that wired, plumbed and installed it.

 

I will pull the ID when it finishes the dinner dishes. 

[this post was last edited: 6/29/2014-20:55]
 
A few

points to clear up regarding:

*Whirlpool, Kenmore & Amana dishwashers.....current models are equipped with the single speed filter based wash pump & motor shown earlier. Certain models have alternating wash arms, others operate all spray arms at once

*Jennair, certain KitchenAid & Kenmore Elite....use a variable speed filter based wash pump & drain motors. These are the quietest operating models. Alternating spray arms

*Until the recently launched 2014 line of KitchenAid dishwashers, there were certain models that had the 4 blade disposer based wash system in addition to filter based models. With the 2014 line, they are all filter based units with alternating spray arms.

*Maytag dishwashers feature the 4 blade disposer based wash system. New models are launching now with a quieter wash pump motor. All spray arms are active.
 
All in the name of energy efficiency. I still don't get why Euro type designs such as (Boschs?) that will fill a reservoir attached to the outer tub with water during the end of the main wash to transfer heat over. The reservoir is dumped in the tank for the rinse. That way energy is saved without having to resort to other more drastic 'improvements' like 80 watt motors.

Energy efficiency isn't even the whole reason. Getting the appliances to use less water and electricity at any point (I stress point) in time is an ultimate goal. Why so? That means less needs to be spent in infrastructure improvements. Appliances that draw a cup of water and pull what a night light does means that 100 year old water main can go another 20 years. Fewer sewage plants need to be built. Less power plants. Its not so much manufacturers that are doing this but government regulations supported by our own tax dollars.

IMO I don't think Whirlpool and competitors wanted this. If they could they would continue to sell what consumers look for. What consumers are used to. I know lots of AW.org folks will say consumers don't think about appliances caring nothing if the product does its job or not, and while I do agree, not entirely. Every time I go shopping I hear people complaining. Common one for DW is filters. Its no secret older machines were disposals, and people want that feature. Time bothers others. Locking lids, washers that don't fill with the lid open, long cycles, impeller washer that don't clean or tear clothes, moldy front loads (though Im hearing far less of that)... More of anything its being forced on consumers. Saving energy now trendy, but its not looking to good with todays cheap plastic that cant even get the basics right.
 
I don't think you could have said it better chetlaham. I've preached time and again: Why is money being funneled into trying to make appliances use less and less, when instead that money could be invested on finding and engineering better, more efficient ways to produce energy and refine our water. Building a machine that is more efficient is ultimately a good thing, but it's being pushed to all the wrong limits. Just like you said though, they'd rather just say "use less" rather than update our ancient power grids and water treatment methods. I think, and hope, that it will reach a breaking point. With electricity, I'd gladly take a motor that can output the same power and volume as an older one, but only use a penny's worth of energy, but as far as water, there's only so little you can use before the job isn't being done at all. And what are they going to do? Tell physics to change so that a drop works the same as a gallon? Tell humans and plants that they have to evolve to need less water? I don't think so, although I wouldn't be surprised if they tried.

At the bottom of it all I don't blame the manufacturers. They receive funding only on machines that meet those strict regulations. Anything that doesn't is out of the company's pocket, which may be why the "BOL" Whirlpool agitator model is $500, when that used to be average price for a higher end machine. I am glad that they still offer that model though, because it at least still gives the consumer a choice if they want a washer that still works like a washer. If Whirlpool were to drive sales and features to the new trendy HE dishwashers, but have one model that was a standard tub PowerClean, with basic cycles/features like Heavy-Normal-Light and Hi Temp wash, I would absolutely pay more for it. As with anything in the consumer industry, the consumer themselves should have a choice in what they're spending their money on.
 
False economy, stretching fractured infrastructure. Like that Minnesota bridge. New York City's water mains leak enough to fully supply most cities. Hardly worth several generations of ineffective appliances to keep a few dozen antiquated coal plants listed as 'adequate'.

And worst, why spend perfectly good money trimming ALL the trees when you can just wait until a storm knocks them into powerlines and it becomes obvious which ones needed trimming?

Speculation? Not. Austin TX has a very aggressive tree cutback policy and they also have one of the highest electric reliability rates in the country. I lived there 18 years and power never went out more than minutes. Even when a substation transformer exploded, they had the lights back on in a half hour. My first MONTH in DFW power was out more in perfectly clear calm weather than the entire time I lived in Austin. Oh, and the rates were below the nat'l average as well. It CAN be done right.
 
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