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@brisnat81/Nathan

The Duet (Dreamspace here) costed 3600 AUD?!?! That's obscene! And that machine is all plastic! That's more than twice the cost it has here! I wonder why!?
 
Nathan is correct....

...Our prices for Miele are not dissimilar to the the US and I can promise you that Miele have no trouble finding buyers either. Mind, we have had Miele appliances here since the very late 1970's or early 1980's and have excellent service coverage - Most towns with populations of over 5000 have access to a close service agent based on my check of the Miele website yesterday.

 

On the subject of capacity....

 

3Belt, the USA is basically on its' own when it comes to using the CU FT measurement for capacity. Certainly it tells you how much you can STORE in the drum, but it doesn't tell you how much you can WASH in it....as evidenced by the US governments own list reproduced by Matt above and originally posted (I think) by you.

 

This list tells us that for every given CU FT capacity, there is an equivalent LB or KG test capacity...

 

So, at 3.80 CU FT, the US Government says that the test load is 6.99KG and at 3.20 CU FT, 5.85kg....now my maths is pretty reasonable so that should make a 4.40 CU FT machine have a test capacity of about 8.15KG

 

There are at least 20 machines on our market with capacities of 8KG or GREATER that sit in a 24" frame....

 

Now, stay with me here....

 

In other country's, such as the UK, all of Europe, Asia and Australia, we use the LB or KG measurement for capacity. In Oz, machines are tested for the energy efficiency, water consumption and ability to rinse a FULL capacity load on a stated cycle BEFORE being allowed an energy and water rating label (which they can't sell without).

 

So those dinky, teeny, 'small frame 24" machines' are sold in every other country outside of North America rated at their FULL WASH LOAD capacity, not by some inconsequential, nonsensical, unusable and perfectly ridiculous measurement that is CU FT and foisted upon the US population. 

 

A 24" Miele machine sold in the US will wash and rinse perfectly the equivalent of a 3.50 CU FT machine (6.5KG or 14.5LB) regardless of what measurement standard the US try to tell you, the public, it will wash.....

 

....and so will any other European machine rated at 6.5KG in its' home country
 
Ronic;

The issue is we American are NOT 24" buying machines marketed to Europe, OZ etc. It is the 24" machine made for the us market. The few that do buy 24" machines sold here, the legal specs show they are smaller in capacity; ie will wash less clothes.

The actual legal US number is not exactly the physical volume.

Two us machines with the exact same spin baskets can have different legal capacities; since one has a better wash cycle, better software, better design, mixes articles better.

So the us spec already rates via performance and those Meile 24" machines sold here are at the bottom of the barrel in capacity with low 2.52 and 2.3 numbers. ie the legal rating of the 2.52 cuft Miele is only 63 percent of a normal 4.0 washer, thus it is called smaller. Thus legally they are machines that will wash less stuff than a normal machine sold here

It really does not matter if a 24" Miele washer sold in the UK can wash 10Kg worth of clothes. It is not the same washer sold here.
 
Umm

 

Well I have a Miele washer sold to the USA and yes it can wash the same amount as its counter part in Europe and Au even though it has the USA load specs.  If you look at the data plate you will see the kg specs as well.  I was doubtful at first, but it actually holds washes, and rinses more than my previous super capacity top loader did.  Cannot comment on the larger front loaders because I have no experience with them.
 
@3beltwesty
"Two us machines with the exact same spin baskets can have different legal capacities; since one has a better wash cycle, better software, better design, mixes articles better."

Wasn't IEC equivalent cubic feet just what a similar conventional Top Load washer would have used in space for the agitator added to the actual cubic feet of a front loader minus loss for baffles spray arms and the like?

I thought the whole standard was made to compare FL to TL machines.

It's interesting that most commercial makers use the same Dry Linen Capacity to rate their machines as the EU uses in rating residential machines.
 
RE "My goodness 3beltwesty, are you saying that a US Miele washer with the same drum as a European Miele cannot wash the same amount of laundry as it's European counterpart?"

Would you bet your house that one can?

Nobody here even has the two variants to compare; thus one has few facts.

One cannot here even legally say that a 24" us miele with a 2.52 IEC drum washes the same amount of clothes as Maytag FL with a 4.0 IEC. This bothers non usa folks; their beloved washer is rated as smaller in capacity that what mainstream folks want.

If the 24" Miele here really could magically wash the same amount of clothes as a 30" machine with an 7.0 cuft ; its IEC number would be higher and be 7 also.
 
3Belt

Yes, actually it is true...

 

The US measurement is on overall drum VOLUME, not what the US government tests the washer with....see how much VOLUME 8.15KG actually takes up in the 4.40 CU FT drum and you'll finally see our point.

 

This is the actual quantity that the government states they should be able to wash.....which is fine if you wish to hold a centric view, but what we are saying is that a European machine rated at 6.5 KG in Europe will have a VOLUME for the US market of around 2.5 CU FT (4.5 KG),  but it was designed to HOLD and WASH 6.5 KG.......which they do.

 

So if that means it has, for the rest of the world, a FUNCTIONAL CAPACITY the same as an American 3.50 CU FT machine, then it would be good of you to simply accept it - we know what we're talking about.

 

...and yes, many of us do have an issue when people won't listen to what we say. Our experience and opinions as long term users of these machines count. The mere fact that there are several hundred million European, Asian, Australian and other nationalities who use the same style of machine and know what they're doing, what their machines hold AND that they are, almost without exception, 24" washers should give you some indication that we are correct about what we can put in them....

 

...now about those even smaller 18" X 24" teeny weeny European Top Load, tumble washers.....

 

 
 
...now about those even smaller 18" X 24" teeny ween

They hold just as much as a standard teeny weeny front loader washer ;)

Oh and it's not 18x24 " it's 15,7x23,6 ;) even smaller! Heheheh

The machine pictured here is rated at 8kg of dry load! That would put it in par with a 4,2 cubic feet machine while having a drum less than half that size at only 56 litres. Using the American standard that would be just a 8 lbs machine... (3,6 kg)

I understand the difference but please, consider this, I just want to explain! To wash that amount of laundry in such a small tub you need more time than doing a half load but since a "standard/test" wash here lasts 120-150 minutes, nobody cares and if you want your wash done quicker, the very same machine has a 14 or 32 minutes refresh programme for 2,5 kg of laundry or a 44 minutes one at 40°C for 4 kg of laundry!

That would be the "standard" time for an American machine so the load needs all the free space possible in the tub to turn and splash so it can get clean in that small amount of time. Exactly why those programmes are defined upon a smaller load!

http://www.hoover.it/grandi_elettrodomestici/novita/index.asp?news=dynamic8
dj-gabriele++2-18-2011-02-43-14.jpg
 
Also consider the "profile wash" thing adds time

European made frontloaders, even Electrolux (also as Aeg and Zanussi/Rex) and Whirlpool (also as Bauknecht, Ignis, Vedette, Laden..) stop heating water when 40°C is achieved, then they wash @ this temp for 15 minutes to enhance enzimatic action. Then the inernal heater engages again to reach the target temp (provided it is higher than 40°C/105°F)
That' s another reason of longer washing times in euro machines

BTW now I get why so many people in North America complain about OOB issues ( machines that take forever to get the proper balance while distributing) : that bad habit to ***underload*** the drum (expecially with very adsorbant loads such as towelling) is the best way to stress the machine : worse balance and more bearing wear.

I bet that commercial laundries in North America use tumble washers actually in the same way they are used elsewhere in the world (say with the 1:10 ratio ---> 10 cubic decimetres/litres of drum volume for each Kg of regular cotton load, 1:20 for permapress, 1:25 for delicates)
 
Gosh Gabriele why did you have to use the Hoover Dynamic 8+ Top as an example?

The detractors will have a field day what with Ballerinas, clown car capacity etc, and tutu washloads.

Well just look...
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Seriously if it had a faster max spin and old Hoover reliability I'd love one of these.
 
8 KG + !

...in a 40cm width (that's 20") machine........

 

I can hear Catweazel now 'what elec-tricery is this?'.....

 

....so much capacity, so little space....where will it all end?
 
Overloading causes more failures, not underloading.

Favorit RE

"BTW now I get why so many people in North America complain about OOB issues ( machines that take forever to get the proper balance while distributing) : that bad habit to ***underload*** the drum (expecially with very adsorbant loads such as towelling) is the best way to stress the machine : worse balance and more bearing wear. "

A FL washer has the least stress on its ball bearings when there is nothing in the spin basket; There are no balance issues; there only is the spin baskets weight. ( this about zero load confuses the software designed to sense load size, that is the delay)

As one adds more items the imbalance grows. The dynamic imbalance might tend to drop with European overloading; ie so many items that the clothes are just one solid wad; ie the items are one glued together blob. From an engineering viewpoint the imbalance is zero with no load and zero when totally full, ie one has the entire drum full of wine corks or golf balls so no cork or ball can move at all.

Bearings fail in washers due to leaky water seals in 99.9 percent of the time. The bearings never see wearout with classical bearing fatigue in most all cases. The water seal leaks the 52100 bearing steel corrodes like total hell; the bearing thus dies 100 times quicker.

It is a complete farce to say an unloaded FL washer somehow stresses the machine more than a full one. The bearings see less load, the water level is lower thus the water seal "sees" less water slashing. The drive motor's windings see a lower load and thus run cooler. The motor driver board sees less load, its switching transistors run cooler.

Overloading a machine all the time is called "cratering" a machine in usa service houses. Ie you haul loads of bricks with a Yugo and get axle bearing failures, one overloads washers and has them die quicker, ie one runs a cheap home concrete mixer so long in one day that the plastic gears heat up and break sooner.

In the USA the "delay" in the beginning of a wash cycle is called "balancing" by lay folks, but really it is often just "sensing the load size" and "detangling and mixing" . Since machine makers get a tax credit if little water is used, the software spends time sensing the load size via motor current to move the drum in oddball ways. Ie the government doe not want the machine to be like 1950 where one weighed the clothes on the washers spring door and then set the water level manually. This would save folks time, but the water police would have heart attacks, plus the maker would not get a tax credit. I would pay 100 dollars extra to have a machine with full manual controls; one for water level as a dumb dial, one with less software fart around factor.

Once a washer is used for several years the water seal often leaks. Filling the machine with more clothes has the machine using more water, thus the tubs level of water is higher. The water seal sees more water via splashing with a full loaded machine, thus one kills off the machine way quicker with full loads.

The primary reason FL bearings fail is due to a leaky water seal. After it starts leaking the size of the bearings and fatigue is less of an issue. One basically corrodes the heck out of the bearings whether big or small, since one has 52100 ball bearing steel exposed to dirty water, soaps and crap from corroding aluminum spiders too. This rusty ball bearing also leaks back rust on to white clothes too.
 
If the 24" Miele here really could magically wash the sa

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

Wanna know why?

Because it is a far superior machine in every way, and is designed to be used correctly, not just having a few tshirts chucked in it.

It is a machine with appropriate cycle lengths, wash temperatures, accurate pressor switches and well designed drum rotations, which allows it to be filled to capacity.

Because it is a far better made machine, even if it is overloaded (which it is not, it is just loaded to capacity) it will not damage the machine at all.

So actually, I would say the way that ridiculously huge machines are marketed in the U.S., which actually can't be filled properly whilst still giving good results, are fine examples of "snake oil" advertising
 
there has to be a ENGINEERING technical reason, not just a m

Legally the 24" machines sold in the USA hold less clothes than a common 27" frame washer.

Matt;

If a engine that displaces say 400 cc like my Briggs and Stratton 1985 lawnmower only puts out 11 HP versus 30 HP for a 400cc motorcycle; there are real engineering reasons why.

The mower only has an 7.5 to 1 compression ratio; it is designed to run on crap flat old gasoline . it is a flathead engine, it only works at a max of 3600rpm

The race rocket rice burner bike 400cc engine is overhead valve, its max RPMs are double, the compression ratio is higher, the fuel system is better. Its engine is really not designed for poor gas with a low octane.

For a smaller volume 24" washer to wash as much clothes as a 27" frame's spin basket that is 50 percent larger there has to be a technical ENGINEERING reason, not just claim or brand name.

With the 400cc mower versus a 400cc motorcycle; there are actual engineering reasons why the motorcycle puts out 30 Hp versus the mower's 11HP.

With two FL washer's of 2.5 and 3.75 cuft actual physical volumes, to have the smaller machine wash as much as the bigger machine requires more than snake oil marketing; there has to be a technical reason(s).

(1)Ie maybe Europe has less water police and less washer maker tax kickbacks and thus the washer can use more water.

(2)Maybe European's sense of what is clean is less than Americans, ie it doesnt matter if a dirty poop filled diaper did not move with respect to ones other clothes. :)

(3)Maybe Europe has those magical wash balls in washers I saw in Vancover BC back in 1990, that the US FTC would not allow here to be advertised since they found them to be BS.

(4)Maybe Europes smaller 24" machines have longer wash cycles than American ones.

(5)Maybe Europes smaller 24" machines have unobtanium spin baskets that warp the universe so they can hold more clothes.

A washer or engine that has just 1/2 to 2/3rds the volume of another does not magically wash the same amount of clothes, or have the same HP output.

The USA's spin basket is larger and holds more clothes. This is very basic grade school mathmatics of figuring the volume of a cylinder.

600cc engine has a 50 percent larger displacement than a 400cc one. If a 400cc motor has the same HP as a 600cc one, there are technical reasons why.

Maybe the USA should import Concrete mixers from Europe, since one can place 9 yards of concrete in a truck that is only 2/3's in size?. Ie a standard USA truck holds 8 to 9 yards on concrete. With superior European technology their 6 yard truck can hold 9 yards in the usa?
 
Well

When I fill my parent's Miele fully and weight the load, it weights 6kg (13lbs). It is obvious that what is considered "full" in an American machine is almost half filled by the standards of our machines.

A half load in a drum thats 110l in volume is the same amount of laundry as a full load in a drum that is 55l in volume, therefore, if the larger machine can only cope when half filled, and the smaller machine can be loaded correctly and still wash and rinse (probably) better than the larger machine, then the smaller machine holds just as much.

Simple physics really.

I'm done with this discussion now, as usual, the logic is there, but some people just refuse to accept it.

Have fun washing 5 shirts at a time in your massive machine!

Matt
 
Well

Not a lot you can say to that diatribe is there!!!

I have enjoyed your posts from an engineering point of view, your commercial machines & restores have been fascinating to watch in progress...

Your Westy colour coded machines we could spend more time on as they bear similar resemblence to our English Electric washers..

But, the way you are proceeding with the You and the Europeans makes me wonder who you are and if you are not another person recently joined out to make a ruck!!!

They are washers people and the M word does provoke a lot of attitude!!!

Happy washing
 
I think it's fair to say at this stage that it isn't just Miele washers, but the majority of European washers that will perform to the same level.

 

Like I said in another post, it's always interesting to see the differences in attitudes between the US and the UK.

 

Jon
 
Never heard that a "larger machine can only cope when ha

Matt;

RE "if the larger machine can only cope when half filled, and the smaller machine can be loaded correctly and still wash and rinse (probably) better than the larger machine, then the smaller machine holds just as much. "

Here many folks like me use a larger "volume machines are just half full" because that is what have to wash, ie not due to the machine will not hold more. ie I purposely own a truck than than haul a 4x8 sheet of plywood and most the time I the truck is only 1/4 full and with no plywood.

Ie I purposely want to wash a weeks worth of items than buy more clothes "to fill the washer"

Here I have never heard that a "larger machine can only cope when half filled" before getting on this board.

If anything it might be a water police load sense issue; ie US government mandated software/programs to chase that tax credit, the carrot. The only reason my current LG might not wash a giant crammed full load is if the water sense only gave me 1 or 2 bars; when it needs a 3 or 4.

The units software that senses load at the start of a wash cycle defines if one has a 1,2,3 or 4 bars of load level in water. The unit is really sensing torque or ripple torque when the spin basket does its sense motions. You could pack the machine what call full and the machine still might only give one 2 out of 4 bars.

With my the new machine about every wash I do is just 1 or 2 bars; even with the drum 1/2 full. Even with the drum crammed full with gobs of stuff one might get 3 out of 4 bars of water. Never has the machine hit 4 bars yet. I may place some free weights in there held in by wood to see what the software is sensing. Ie place two 5Kg weighs 180 degrees apart, and another time on 10Kg weight so it is totally at one place.

The only reason a 27" frame FL washer here could not cope with a full load is due to the water police's tying ones hands, ie will that packed full washer be sensed as really a full load and thus one uses more water.
 
"the items need room to move"

RE

"Seems Miele doesn't want their machines filled to the hilt either. This is from the 3035 manual."

That is what I have heard my entire life too with tumbler washers.
"the items need room to move"

(1)Being a skeptic, I still have a hard time believing that If I buy a US 27" W4802 or W4842 Meile here with its IEC 4.0 cuft drum that is is really going to wash 50 percent more clothes than a Maytag, Whirlpool, LG, GE with the same IEC rating of 4.0.

(2) Being a skeptic, I still have a hard time believing that If I buy a US 24" W3033, W3035 or W3039 Meile here with its 2.52 or 2.3 cuft IEC drum that is is really going to wash the same clothes as a Maytag, Whirlpool, LG, GE FL washer with a IEC rating of 4.0.

I wonder if Miele usa would state in writing and out up cash for such claims (1) or (2)?

Ie one buys the washer and Miele puts up 2 to 3 grand to a third party (say Ralph Nader) to buy the unit(s) back if the claims are untrue.

ie one finds out if the hokem floats or sinks.

From a washer makers standpoint this could be great publicity or bad PR if the test fails.
 
Hi Malcolm.

That instruction only appears in the USA manuals. Not in the manuals for the rest of the world. That would appear to correspond with the volume vs weight testing table posted above.

In relation to the water police. For a machine here to achieve a 4 star rating (which is where rebates kick in) the machine must wash and rinse 1kg of clothes in less than 10l of water.

Other than when washing duvets is there anyone here that ever loads a 27" machine until the drum is full on a regular basis?

Nathan
 
"Filling the machine with more clothes has the machine using more water, thus the tubs level of water is higher"

3belt, that's wrong : the machine uses more water **to saturate the load** BUT the water level is always that same one for the stated cycle (low on cottons, med in woolens, very high on delicates). Forget about PCB and other electronic devices : a quality, precise pressure switch is enough to have the job done. Even stoneage quality frontloaders (not only mieles) stop tumbling and fill to recover the proper level when required. Just surf on YouTube and watch them. These machines were made when PCboards were just rocket science *LOL*

Also these stoneage machines had no balance sensors : heavy machines had very little "shaking" issues, while light ones were good "walkers"
Everyone who has used stoneage frontloaders knows that half loads are harder to balance ... ask Louis (Foraloysius) what happens when the short Lavamat 220 (or worse the 240 with 850 rmp) tumbler toploader is half loaded *LOL*

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?5689
 
Software puzzled? Sorry I got sidetracked!

3beltwesty "zero load confuses the software designed to sense load size, that is the delay": I cannot agree with this statement, unless such procedure is reserved to some machines... unknown to myself. As far as I have seen, in the absence of a wash load in the appliance basket the software will not take any measures therefore the basket will be allowed to enter the spin phase with no further delays. However, in some cases there could be more action involved simply because it's programmed to execute in such a way.

I noticed that we tend to generalise too much when it comes to possible ways our washing machines carry out their work... I know we can apply physics and logic but we often fail to consider all contributing factors to a particular physical behaviour. It's often deemed that a full load has the potential to bear a 'zero imbalance' factor but this is not always the case. For the very same reasons you mentioned, in this scenario, the items in the basket are not free to move therefore hard to shuffle and reorganise, thus depending on the composition and configuration of the articles which make up the load (e.g. the basket in the washer is chock-a-block with small nylon/acrylic items and one bulky towelling item which is unfortunately positioned in such a way to make one side of the load muck heavier than the other).

By contrast, it is often possible to carry out a successful spin cycle with a small/smaller load if the same has been distributed fairly around the drum in such a way that it causes a tolerable degree of balance/imbalance which falls within the margins set by the software. The same degree of imbalance will not be tolerated with a fuller load because such imbalance would multiply once the load has entered the spin cycle. On the same lines, a very small load might as well cram to one side of the drum causing a visual imbalance, however the software will allow it to enter the spin mode due to its reduced weight which will create an amount of force easily counteracted by the means engineered around the whole outer/inner tub structure, e.g. suspension system and stabilizing weights. All the examples/textual evidence I provided in this comment are not based on frequent occurrence as it's just an attempt to make an anti generalizing statement.

Mieleforever, sorry for my little personal sidetrack from the question you initially raised in this thread, 'why a Miele?'. Anyway... if we keep this up it'll be us asking you 'why a Miele?' LOL
Anyway, although, I wouldn't have one, I'm still convinced that they are the most advanced and highest quality household appliances that man has ever attempted to build and a representation of a pure concentration of passion and dedication for such a market sector by human kind.
 

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