Why a Miele?

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there has to be a ENGINEERING technical reason, not just a m

Legally the 24" machines sold in the USA hold less clothes than a common 27" frame washer.

Matt;

If a engine that displaces say 400 cc like my Briggs and Stratton 1985 lawnmower only puts out 11 HP versus 30 HP for a 400cc motorcycle; there are real engineering reasons why.

The mower only has an 7.5 to 1 compression ratio; it is designed to run on crap flat old gasoline . it is a flathead engine, it only works at a max of 3600rpm

The race rocket rice burner bike 400cc engine is overhead valve, its max RPMs are double, the compression ratio is higher, the fuel system is better. Its engine is really not designed for poor gas with a low octane.

For a smaller volume 24" washer to wash as much clothes as a 27" frame's spin basket that is 50 percent larger there has to be a technical ENGINEERING reason, not just claim or brand name.

With the 400cc mower versus a 400cc motorcycle; there are actual engineering reasons why the motorcycle puts out 30 Hp versus the mower's 11HP.

With two FL washer's of 2.5 and 3.75 cuft actual physical volumes, to have the smaller machine wash as much as the bigger machine requires more than snake oil marketing; there has to be a technical reason(s).

(1)Ie maybe Europe has less water police and less washer maker tax kickbacks and thus the washer can use more water.

(2)Maybe European's sense of what is clean is less than Americans, ie it doesnt matter if a dirty poop filled diaper did not move with respect to ones other clothes. :)

(3)Maybe Europe has those magical wash balls in washers I saw in Vancover BC back in 1990, that the US FTC would not allow here to be advertised since they found them to be BS.

(4)Maybe Europes smaller 24" machines have longer wash cycles than American ones.

(5)Maybe Europes smaller 24" machines have unobtanium spin baskets that warp the universe so they can hold more clothes.

A washer or engine that has just 1/2 to 2/3rds the volume of another does not magically wash the same amount of clothes, or have the same HP output.

The USA's spin basket is larger and holds more clothes. This is very basic grade school mathmatics of figuring the volume of a cylinder.

600cc engine has a 50 percent larger displacement than a 400cc one. If a 400cc motor has the same HP as a 600cc one, there are technical reasons why.

Maybe the USA should import Concrete mixers from Europe, since one can place 9 yards of concrete in a truck that is only 2/3's in size?. Ie a standard USA truck holds 8 to 9 yards on concrete. With superior European technology their 6 yard truck can hold 9 yards in the usa?
 
Well

When I fill my parent's Miele fully and weight the load, it weights 6kg (13lbs). It is obvious that what is considered "full" in an American machine is almost half filled by the standards of our machines.

A half load in a drum thats 110l in volume is the same amount of laundry as a full load in a drum that is 55l in volume, therefore, if the larger machine can only cope when half filled, and the smaller machine can be loaded correctly and still wash and rinse (probably) better than the larger machine, then the smaller machine holds just as much.

Simple physics really.

I'm done with this discussion now, as usual, the logic is there, but some people just refuse to accept it.

Have fun washing 5 shirts at a time in your massive machine!

Matt
 
Well

Not a lot you can say to that diatribe is there!!!

I have enjoyed your posts from an engineering point of view, your commercial machines & restores have been fascinating to watch in progress...

Your Westy colour coded machines we could spend more time on as they bear similar resemblence to our English Electric washers..

But, the way you are proceeding with the You and the Europeans makes me wonder who you are and if you are not another person recently joined out to make a ruck!!!

They are washers people and the M word does provoke a lot of attitude!!!

Happy washing
 
I think it's fair to say at this stage that it isn't just Miele washers, but the majority of European washers that will perform to the same level.

 

Like I said in another post, it's always interesting to see the differences in attitudes between the US and the UK.

 

Jon
 
Never heard that a "larger machine can only cope when ha

Matt;

RE "if the larger machine can only cope when half filled, and the smaller machine can be loaded correctly and still wash and rinse (probably) better than the larger machine, then the smaller machine holds just as much. "

Here many folks like me use a larger "volume machines are just half full" because that is what have to wash, ie not due to the machine will not hold more. ie I purposely own a truck than than haul a 4x8 sheet of plywood and most the time I the truck is only 1/4 full and with no plywood.

Ie I purposely want to wash a weeks worth of items than buy more clothes "to fill the washer"

Here I have never heard that a "larger machine can only cope when half filled" before getting on this board.

If anything it might be a water police load sense issue; ie US government mandated software/programs to chase that tax credit, the carrot. The only reason my current LG might not wash a giant crammed full load is if the water sense only gave me 1 or 2 bars; when it needs a 3 or 4.

The units software that senses load at the start of a wash cycle defines if one has a 1,2,3 or 4 bars of load level in water. The unit is really sensing torque or ripple torque when the spin basket does its sense motions. You could pack the machine what call full and the machine still might only give one 2 out of 4 bars.

With my the new machine about every wash I do is just 1 or 2 bars; even with the drum 1/2 full. Even with the drum crammed full with gobs of stuff one might get 3 out of 4 bars of water. Never has the machine hit 4 bars yet. I may place some free weights in there held in by wood to see what the software is sensing. Ie place two 5Kg weighs 180 degrees apart, and another time on 10Kg weight so it is totally at one place.

The only reason a 27" frame FL washer here could not cope with a full load is due to the water police's tying ones hands, ie will that packed full washer be sensed as really a full load and thus one uses more water.
 
"the items need room to move"

RE

"Seems Miele doesn't want their machines filled to the hilt either. This is from the 3035 manual."

That is what I have heard my entire life too with tumbler washers.
"the items need room to move"

(1)Being a skeptic, I still have a hard time believing that If I buy a US 27" W4802 or W4842 Meile here with its IEC 4.0 cuft drum that is is really going to wash 50 percent more clothes than a Maytag, Whirlpool, LG, GE with the same IEC rating of 4.0.

(2) Being a skeptic, I still have a hard time believing that If I buy a US 24" W3033, W3035 or W3039 Meile here with its 2.52 or 2.3 cuft IEC drum that is is really going to wash the same clothes as a Maytag, Whirlpool, LG, GE FL washer with a IEC rating of 4.0.

I wonder if Miele usa would state in writing and out up cash for such claims (1) or (2)?

Ie one buys the washer and Miele puts up 2 to 3 grand to a third party (say Ralph Nader) to buy the unit(s) back if the claims are untrue.

ie one finds out if the hokem floats or sinks.

From a washer makers standpoint this could be great publicity or bad PR if the test fails.
 
Hi Malcolm.

That instruction only appears in the USA manuals. Not in the manuals for the rest of the world. That would appear to correspond with the volume vs weight testing table posted above.

In relation to the water police. For a machine here to achieve a 4 star rating (which is where rebates kick in) the machine must wash and rinse 1kg of clothes in less than 10l of water.

Other than when washing duvets is there anyone here that ever loads a 27" machine until the drum is full on a regular basis?

Nathan
 
"Filling the machine with more clothes has the machine using more water, thus the tubs level of water is higher"

3belt, that's wrong : the machine uses more water **to saturate the load** BUT the water level is always that same one for the stated cycle (low on cottons, med in woolens, very high on delicates). Forget about PCB and other electronic devices : a quality, precise pressure switch is enough to have the job done. Even stoneage quality frontloaders (not only mieles) stop tumbling and fill to recover the proper level when required. Just surf on YouTube and watch them. These machines were made when PCboards were just rocket science *LOL*

Also these stoneage machines had no balance sensors : heavy machines had very little "shaking" issues, while light ones were good "walkers"
Everyone who has used stoneage frontloaders knows that half loads are harder to balance ... ask Louis (Foraloysius) what happens when the short Lavamat 220 (or worse the 240 with 850 rmp) tumbler toploader is half loaded *LOL*

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?5689
 
Software puzzled? Sorry I got sidetracked!

3beltwesty "zero load confuses the software designed to sense load size, that is the delay": I cannot agree with this statement, unless such procedure is reserved to some machines... unknown to myself. As far as I have seen, in the absence of a wash load in the appliance basket the software will not take any measures therefore the basket will be allowed to enter the spin phase with no further delays. However, in some cases there could be more action involved simply because it's programmed to execute in such a way.

I noticed that we tend to generalise too much when it comes to possible ways our washing machines carry out their work... I know we can apply physics and logic but we often fail to consider all contributing factors to a particular physical behaviour. It's often deemed that a full load has the potential to bear a 'zero imbalance' factor but this is not always the case. For the very same reasons you mentioned, in this scenario, the items in the basket are not free to move therefore hard to shuffle and reorganise, thus depending on the composition and configuration of the articles which make up the load (e.g. the basket in the washer is chock-a-block with small nylon/acrylic items and one bulky towelling item which is unfortunately positioned in such a way to make one side of the load muck heavier than the other).

By contrast, it is often possible to carry out a successful spin cycle with a small/smaller load if the same has been distributed fairly around the drum in such a way that it causes a tolerable degree of balance/imbalance which falls within the margins set by the software. The same degree of imbalance will not be tolerated with a fuller load because such imbalance would multiply once the load has entered the spin cycle. On the same lines, a very small load might as well cram to one side of the drum causing a visual imbalance, however the software will allow it to enter the spin mode due to its reduced weight which will create an amount of force easily counteracted by the means engineered around the whole outer/inner tub structure, e.g. suspension system and stabilizing weights. All the examples/textual evidence I provided in this comment are not based on frequent occurrence as it's just an attempt to make an anti generalizing statement.

Mieleforever, sorry for my little personal sidetrack from the question you initially raised in this thread, 'why a Miele?'. Anyway... if we keep this up it'll be us asking you 'why a Miele?' LOL
Anyway, although, I wouldn't have one, I'm still convinced that they are the most advanced and highest quality household appliances that man has ever attempted to build and a representation of a pure concentration of passion and dedication for such a market sector by human kind.
 
Culture varies around the world

Nathan Here I have no duvets ; beds here are twin, full, queen and king and others.

A small comforter for a full bed will not fit into my 1976 FL washer with its spin basket of 2.5 to 2.6 cuft; it fits well into the LG machine with a 3.9 cuft drum rated at IEC 4.2

here is a shot of the comforter that will not fit in a old 1976 westy drum; but will fit ok and wash ok in the newer FL washer.

Culture varies around the world, here many americans are probably not going to go the the local coin laundromat several times a year to wash a comforter or larger load of items.

They often just buy a normal washer like the 4.2 IEC LG machine here. An normal washer sold here is made to handle things like a comforter.

The old machine like my 1976 westy has a 30 year record of being too small in drum size; ie few folks bought them. ie what Europeans want and uses Americans have already rejected as being too small.

3beltwesty++2-18-2011-14-07-58.jpg
 
"Load sense rotate, wobble, spin sequence" is at sta

RE:

3beltwesty "zero load confuses the software designed to sense load size, that is the delay": I cannot agree with this statement, unless such procedure is reserved to some machines... unknown to myself. As far as I have seen, in the absence of a wash load in the appliance basket the software will not take any measures therefore the basket will be allowed to enter the spin phase with no further delays. However, in some cases there could be more action involved simply because it's programmed to execute in such a way. :

Here in the USA a washer senses the load size first, then washes the clothe; then they are rinsed, SPIN is used to extract the water. ie it is the end of the cycle!

A USA FL machine often goes into a "Load sense rotate. wobble, spin sequence" at the START of the entire Wash/Rinse/Spin cycle; it is used to set the water level. If the washers software senses a larger load; it uses more water and this is an input in the software, besides the water level sensor.

With an odd load the "Load sense rotate. wobble, spin sequence" as the start takes longer. The machine wants a good estimate as to what is is washing. Maybe European machines are fully manual, ie no government trying to reduce water usage?

Here a washer never enters the SPIN phase at the start, it load senses, then washes, then rinses, then spins.
 
Hi 3belt

The cultural difference in the rest of the world would be to use duvets with a removable cover. The cover can be washed regularly and I air the duvet on the line every other month and have it dry cleaned every other year. Full size blankets fit in the 24" machines so it isn't too much of an impost every other year to get the duvet professionally cleaned.

Single bed down duvets fit in my 24" machine as do queen size acrylic. Anything bigger than that and I just send it out.

That's why everything just fits in the smaller units.

Nathan
 
Favorit

An aunt of mine had an older BOL AEG frontloader, I think it was a Lavamat F or so. The manual stated that only full loads could be spun. Half loads should be taken out of the machine and had to be spin dried in a separate spin dryer, or towels should be added to the machine so it could do a spin with a full load.
 
Here the water level in the tub and total water used varies

Favorit

RE "Filling the machine with more clothes has the machine using more water, thus the tubs level of water is higher"

3belt, that's wrong : the machine uses more water **to saturate the load** BUT the water level is always that same one for the stated cycle (low on cottons, med in woolens, very high on delicates)."

Here a FL washer's "total water usage" is not the same, it varies with the load size. The tub's level of water is varied too.

Thus with a stock Cotton setting If I only wash 2 pairs of blue jeans the machine senses a dinky load; ie 1 bar. It uses a lower amount of water. One can have the discharge water go in to an empty drum and it will be filled less with a small load of clothes. I actually have done this on my machine using 5 gallon buckets.

Case 2 larger load ; with the same stock Cotton setting ; If I only wash 10 pairs of blue jeans the machine senses a larger load ie 2 bars or maybe 3. It uses a MORE water. One can have the discharge water go in to an empty drum(s) and it will be filled more with a larger load of clothes.

One gets more discharge water volume in the buckets in case #2 with the larger load than case #1 with the smaller load.

*****Maybe this explains the constant dogma by non usa folks preaching for fully loading washers; ie your washers do not use less water with a smaller load?

A 1950 Westinghouse washer has this technology, except the user is the computer.

You measure the load size with the westy spring loaded door spring, then manually set the water level. ie "weight to save" is the Westinghouse slogan from 60 years ago.

Besides using the water level sensor as tub level feedback ; the modern LG FL washer uses the 1,2,3 and 4 bar load level as to how much to spray and rinse too.

Here the water level in the tub and total water used varies with the load size
 
Now I'm confused...

3beltwesty you qouted my statement in which I was talking about potential imbalance symptoms with different load configurations and then you went on talking about load size and wash sequences... I'm lost!

As to automatic water usage according to load size, most European FL do sense the load and adjust all the wash parameters accordingly... including for some the choice of most adequate drum rhythms for the fabric being washed (based on rate of absorbency). I own a budget FL and when it senses a very small loads it carries out only 2 rinses with a low water level instead of 3 with low water level or 3 with medium water level depending on the amount of times the soleinoid valve has opened to let more current water reach the tub. Having said that... for the sake of allowing a washing machine to be even more efficient, it should be filled to max capacity (without overloading it of course).

Just a quick example: generally, a machine with a max capacity of 6kg will wash 6kg of cottons using 45l... so, in this case we have a ratio Kg/l (45/6) of 7.5l which is the average water required for a kilo of laundry. If the same machine is set to wash 3kg of laundry it would use less water but it will not be directly proportional to the amount of laundry loaded, so let's say that the washer will require 35l to carry out the wash cycle with 3kg of laundry which in turn equates to a ratio of (35/3) 11.6l... thus higher water consumption per kg and so forth. This patterns usually affects automatic programmes 'fuzzy logic' enabled (or whatever other smart word you want to use), a different scenario is involved with other kind of cycles such as partial programmes, quick/rapid cycles, daily washes and so forth.
 
Everyone Is Running They...... So Am Joining In The Fray

One, Miele service and or part information *can* be found on the Internet if one knows how to search and where. I have them, not to mention a huge service book of Miele kitchen appliances (mainly ovens, cooktops etc...).

Miele tends to keep such information close to it's vest, at least as far as North American market is concerned for several reasons. One, the parts aren't available on these shores except from Miele. So it's not exactly clear what one would do with the information anyway. For those whom wish DIY, Miele will sell,ship and give information over the telephone and or via email/fax on how to do the repairs.

Regarding sales of various units, including "Little Giants".

To the best of my knowledge Miele does not *give* display units away to dealers, they have to purhase them, and as with everything else the stuff ain't cheap. If you think the market for "rinky dink" washers that cost *thousands)is small, try selling commercial machines that require 220v power (no and ifs or buts), and cost several thousands of dollars. In short your average Miele dealer isn't going to bother to even know about such things much less sell them. According to Miele persons I've spoken with the few USA domestic customers have "Little Giants" installed in domestic settings. Even then those sales were mainly pre-real estate crash when everyone was building "MacMansions" and or wanted commercial laundry appliances, perhaps for a very wealthy family with lots of children and or fine linens.

If dealers purchase Miele appliances for display, they are stuck with them until they sell, or Miele agrees to allow a price reduction. On rare cases Miele will take the units back, but even then nothing is sent back to Germany. Miele USA will allow certain employees to "bid" or otherwise purchase such units, or they may sit around until corporate finds a use for them.

Regarding Capacity:

My older Miele is rated for 11lbs and holds just that. Many newer front loaders both 24" and 27" may state they hold more, but if you read the owner's manual one is advised to load the washer 3/4's or less. My Miele as with others of it's class was built and can wash 11lbs of wash every day up to it's duty cycle limit for years without problems.

Am also here to tell you the Miele holds more, much more than the small 24" Whirlpool toploading portable I nabbed last year.

Miele units not matter what they are will always cost more because of shipping, taxes, duties and so forth. Miele has not gone the route of Bosch and build an NA plant, nor does it seem likely to go that route. There is no free lunch when it comes to appliances. You can either build quality that will cost, or pound out units for the masses that cost little.

As for purchasing a commercial front loader for home use. Well suppose one could do that, but not all dealers can or will sell to domestic end users. They also may not offer service or even warranty coverage under those situations. You can purchase whatever you want from fleaPay or elsewhere, but if something goes south, you could be on your own.

There is also the fact that until one gets into *very* expensive commercial units, cycles are limited and often difficult to change, or at least not as easy as simply pressing a button or turning a knob.

Miele makes all manner and sort of washers and dryers that never will see this side of the Atlantic. Much of it having to do with us being one of the few places left on earth relying on mainly 120v power for domestic use. Please do not go on about how many homes have "dryer outlets" and so froth. Obviously this was not the case for Miele never sold enough 220v powered units to make a major stake in here, and now only sells 120v units. Indeed while most all commercial units from the smallest to largest rely upon 220v power even without heaters, aside from perhaps a few Asko and maybe Bosch models *all* domestic front loaders sold here run on 120v.
 
I don't want to contribute to the Euro-American War on this thread, but I do want to clarify one point about water levels. Not all washers use a set water level.

My washer, a Whirlpool made Kenmore HE3t, varies the water level based on the size of the load. It measures the amount of water it takes to reach a set level, then adds a percentage more. So a small load of towels has a lower water level than a larger load of towels. When I say water level, I mean the height of the puddle as the washer tumbles, not the level of water when the tumbling pauses and the water drains out of the saturated load, raising the water level.

It doesn't even measure the water level in the rinses, it just added a calculated amount more based on how much was used during the wash. Actually, it can't measure the water level while it fills for the rinse because it keeps the drum spinning while it fills.
 

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