Why a Miele?

[brisnat81]

Hi 3Belt,

 

In Australia they start from $1699 and go all the way up to $3699, we only get the 6.5kg 24" machines here.

 

You need to use one to compare what it holds.  Going from a DD 27" whirlpool to an older generation 5.5kg Miele, I fit more in the Miele every time.  I can pack the Miele full, and I mean pack and still get a clean wash with three rinses in about 60 minutes.  In the DD Whirly, you lightly load or run the risk of getting things chewed up.  In the Australian progams, a cottons 40degC wash, with two rinses takes 40mins by default.

 

I would like a little extra capacity some days, and when the 7.5kg models make it Australia, I would consider replacing my machine.  The 7.5kg machine is still 24" but has an extra 10L of volume over my older model.  That 10L will give me all the capacity I need.  I would never manage to fill a machine that has a 80-100L volume.

 

Regarding costs, when the Duet and Neptune were both available here, the Neptune started at around $2600 and the Duet at $3600, which is probably a good reason why they didnt sell too many.

 

Regards

 

Nathan

 

[this post was last edited: 2/17/2011-14:03]

 

[dj-gabriele]

@brisnat81/Nathan

The Duet (Dreamspace here) costed 3600 AUD?!?! That's obscene! And that machine is all plastic! That's more than twice the cost it has here! I wonder why!?

 

[ronhic]

Nathan is correct....

...Our prices for Miele are not dissimilar to the the US and I can promise you that Miele have no trouble finding buyers either. Mind, we have had Miele appliances here since the very late 1970's or early 1980's and have excellent service coverage - Most towns with populations of over 5000 have access to a close service agent based on my check of the Miele website yesterday.

 

On the subject of capacity....

 

3Belt, the USA is basically on its' own when it comes to using the CU FT measurement for capacity. Certainly it tells you how much you can STORE in the drum, but it doesn't tell you how much you can WASH in it....as evidenced by the US governments own list reproduced by Matt above and originally posted (I think) by you.

 

This list tells us that for every given CU FT capacity, there is an equivalent LB or KG test capacity...

 

So, at 3.80 CU FT, the US Government says that the test load is 6.99KG and at 3.20 CU FT, 5.85kg....now my maths is pretty reasonable so that should make a 4.40 CU FT machine have a test capacity of about 8.15KG

 

There are at least 20 machines on our market with capacities of 8KG or GREATER that sit in a 24" frame....

 

Now, stay with me here....

 

In other country's, such as the UK, all of Europe, Asia and Australia, we use the LB or KG measurement for capacity. In Oz, machines are tested for the energy efficiency, water consumption and ability to rinse a FULL capacity load on a stated cycle BEFORE being allowed an energy and water rating label (which they can't sell without).

 

So those dinky, teeny, 'small frame 24" machines' are sold in every other country outside of North America rated at their FULL WASH LOAD capacity, not by some inconsequential, nonsensical, unusable and perfectly ridiculous measurement that is CU FT and foisted upon the US population. 

 

A 24" Miele machine sold in the US will wash and rinse perfectly the equivalent of a 3.50 CU FT machine (6.5KG or 14.5LB) regardless of what measurement standard the US try to tell you, the public, it will wash.....

 

....and so will any other European machine rated at 6.5KG in its' home country

 

[3beltwesty]

Ronic;

The issue is we American are NOT 24" buying machines marketed to Europe, OZ etc. It is the 24" machine made for the us market. The few that do buy 24" machines sold here, the legal specs show they are smaller in capacity; ie will wash less clothes.

The actual legal US number is not exactly the physical volume.

Two us machines with the exact same spin baskets can have different legal capacities; since one has a better wash cycle, better software, better design, mixes articles better.

So the us spec already rates via performance and those Meile 24" machines sold here are at the bottom of the barrel in capacity with low 2.52 and 2.3 numbers. ie the legal rating of the 2.52 cuft Miele is only 63 percent of a normal 4.0 washer, thus it is called smaller. Thus legally they are machines that will wash less stuff than a normal machine sold here

It really does not matter if a 24" Miele washer sold in the UK can wash 10Kg worth of clothes. It is not the same washer sold here.

 

[foraloysius]

My goodness 3beltwesty, are you saying that a US Miele washer with the same drum as a European Miele cannot wash the same amount of laundry as it's European counterpart?

 

[jerrod6]

Umm

 

Well I have a Miele washer sold to the USA and yes it can wash the same amount as its counter part in Europe and Au even though it has the USA load specs.  If you look at the data plate you will see the kg specs as well.  I was doubtful at first, but it actually holds washes, and rinses more than my previous super capacity top loader did.  Cannot comment on the larger front loaders because I have no experience with them.

 

[Pingmeep]

@3beltwesty
"Two us machines with the exact same spin baskets can have different legal capacities; since one has a better wash cycle, better software, better design, mixes articles better."

Wasn't IEC equivalent cubic feet just what a similar conventional Top Load washer would have used in space for the agitator added to the actual cubic feet of a front loader minus loss for baffles spray arms and the like?

I thought the whole standard was made to compare FL to TL machines.

It's interesting that most commercial makers use the same Dry Linen Capacity to rate their machines as the EU uses in rating residential machines.

 

[3beltwesty]

RE "My goodness 3beltwesty, are you saying that a US Miele washer with the same drum as a European Miele cannot wash the same amount of laundry as it's European counterpart?"

Would you bet your house that one can?

Nobody here even has the two variants to compare; thus one has few facts.

One cannot here even legally say that a 24" us miele with a 2.52 IEC drum washes the same amount of clothes as Maytag FL with a 4.0 IEC. This bothers non usa folks; their beloved washer is rated as smaller in capacity that what mainstream folks want.

If the 24" Miele here really could magically wash the same amount of clothes as a 30" machine with an 7.0 cuft ; its IEC number would be higher and be 7 also.

 

[foraloysius]

Well excuse me...

But I think we were comparing American toploaders (you yourself even brought up an Amana toploader) with European frontloaders. Where did that 7.0 cu ft. slip into the discussion?

 

[jerrod6]

Didn't  we use to use pounds for top loaders? What year did USA start using IEC?

 

[Pingmeep]

@jerrod6 I.E.C. cubic feet equivalence came out late 2000 or early 2001 iirc.

 

[chestermikeuk]

Compare

We just might!!! guess what I`m about to start road testing against the
V-Zug - 8kg,
Asko - 6kg
Hotpoint Aqualtis - 9kg &
Hoover Vision - 9kg

http://www.thewashingmachineplace.co.uk/productCategory.aspx?Category.id=200&brand.id=13486&t.tag=GE%20WIVH685CJMV%20Washing%20Machine%20GE%20Appliances

 

[ronhic]

3Belt

Yes, actually it is true...

 

The US measurement is on overall drum VOLUME, not what the US government tests the washer with....see how much VOLUME 8.15KG actually takes up in the 4.40 CU FT drum and you'll finally see our point.

 

This is the actual quantity that the government states they should be able to wash.....which is fine if you wish to hold a centric view, but what we are saying is that a European machine rated at 6.5 KG in Europe will have a VOLUME for the US market of around 2.5 CU FT (4.5 KG),  but it was designed to HOLD and WASH 6.5 KG.......which they do.

 

So if that means it has, for the rest of the world, a FUNCTIONAL CAPACITY the same as an American 3.50 CU FT machine, then it would be good of you to simply accept it - we know what we're talking about.

 

...and yes, many of us do have an issue when people won't listen to what we say. Our experience and opinions as long term users of these machines count. The mere fact that there are several hundred million European, Asian, Australian and other nationalities who use the same style of machine and know what they're doing, what their machines hold AND that they are, almost without exception, 24" washers should give you some indication that we are correct about what we can put in them....

 

...now about those even smaller 18" X 24" teeny weeny European Top Load, tumble washers.....

 

 

 

[ronhic]

Mike....

...can you get access to an American 27" machine to try and sort this mess out for us?

 

[dj-gabriele]

...now about those even smaller 18" X 24" teeny ween

They hold just as much as a standard teeny weeny front loader washer

Oh and it's not 18x24 " it's 15,7x23,6 even smaller! Heheheh

The machine pictured here is rated at 8kg of dry load! That would put it in par with a 4,2 cubic feet machine while having a drum less than half that size at only 56 litres. Using the American standard that would be just a 8 lbs machine... (3,6 kg)

I understand the difference but please, consider this, I just want to explain! To wash that amount of laundry in such a small tub you need more time than doing a half load but since a "standard/test" wash here lasts 120-150 minutes, nobody cares and if you want your wash done quicker, the very same machine has a 14 or 32 minutes refresh programme for 2,5 kg of laundry or a 44 minutes one at 40°C for 4 kg of laundry!

That would be the "standard" time for an American machine so the load needs all the free space possible in the tub to turn and splash so it can get clean in that small amount of time. Exactly why those programmes are defined upon a smaller load!

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[ronhic]

Smart bum Gabriele.....

 

.....Yep, they are fabulous things...

[this post was last edited: 2/18/2011-04:18]

 

[favorit]

Also consider the "profile wash" thing adds time

European made frontloaders, even Electrolux (also as Aeg and Zanussi/Rex) and Whirlpool (also as Bauknecht, Ignis, Vedette, Laden..) stop heating water when 40°C is achieved, then they wash @ this temp for 15 minutes to enhance enzimatic action. Then the inernal heater engages again to reach the target temp (provided it is higher than 40°C/105°F)
That' s another reason of longer washing times in euro machines

BTW now I get why so many people in North America complain about OOB issues ( machines that take forever to get the proper balance while distributing) : that bad habit to ***underload*** the drum (expecially with very adsorbant loads such as towelling) is the best way to stress the machine : worse balance and more bearing wear.

I bet that commercial laundries in North America use tumble washers actually in the same way they are used elsewhere in the world (say with the 1:10 ratio ---> 10 cubic decimetres/litres of drum volume for each Kg of regular cotton load, 1:20 for permapress, 1:25 for delicates)

 

[Pingmeep]

Gosh Gabriele why did you have to use the Hoover Dynamic 8+ Top as an example?

The detractors will have a field day what with Ballerinas, clown car capacity etc, and tutu washloads.

Well just look...
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Seriously if it had a faster max spin and old Hoover reliability I'd love one of these.

 

[ronhic]

8 KG + !

...in a 40cm width (that's 20") machine........

 

I can hear Catweazel now 'what elec-tricery is this?'.....

 

....so much capacity, so little space....where will it all end?

 

[3beltwesty]

Overloading causes more failures, not underloading.

Favorit RE

"BTW now I get why so many people in North America complain about OOB issues ( machines that take forever to get the proper balance while distributing) : that bad habit to ***underload*** the drum (expecially with very adsorbant loads such as towelling) is the best way to stress the machine : worse balance and more bearing wear. "

A FL washer has the least stress on its ball bearings when there is nothing in the spin basket; There are no balance issues; there only is the spin baskets weight. ( this about zero load confuses the software designed to sense load size, that is the delay)

As one adds more items the imbalance grows. The dynamic imbalance might tend to drop with European overloading; ie so many items that the clothes are just one solid wad; ie the items are one glued together blob. From an engineering viewpoint the imbalance is zero with no load and zero when totally full, ie one has the entire drum full of wine corks or golf balls so no cork or ball can move at all.

Bearings fail in washers due to leaky water seals in 99.9 percent of the time. The bearings never see wearout with classical bearing fatigue in most all cases. The water seal leaks the 52100 bearing steel corrodes like total hell; the bearing thus dies 100 times quicker.

It is a complete farce to say an unloaded FL washer somehow stresses the machine more than a full one. The bearings see less load, the water level is lower thus the water seal "sees" less water slashing. The drive motor's windings see a lower load and thus run cooler. The motor driver board sees less load, its switching transistors run cooler.

Overloading a machine all the time is called "cratering" a machine in usa service houses. Ie you haul loads of bricks with a Yugo and get axle bearing failures, one overloads washers and has them die quicker, ie one runs a cheap home concrete mixer so long in one day that the plastic gears heat up and break sooner.

In the USA the "delay" in the beginning of a wash cycle is called "balancing" by lay folks, but really it is often just "sensing the load size" and "detangling and mixing" . Since machine makers get a tax credit if little water is used, the software spends time sensing the load size via motor current to move the drum in oddball ways. Ie the government doe not want the machine to be like 1950 where one weighed the clothes on the washers spring door and then set the water level manually. This would save folks time, but the water police would have heart attacks, plus the maker would not get a tax credit. I would pay 100 dollars extra to have a machine with full manual controls; one for water level as a dumb dial, one with less software fart around factor.

Once a washer is used for several years the water seal often leaks. Filling the machine with more clothes has the machine using more water, thus the tubs level of water is higher. The water seal sees more water via splashing with a full loaded machine, thus one kills off the machine way quicker with full loads.

The primary reason FL bearings fail is due to a leaky water seal. After it starts leaking the size of the bearings and fatigue is less of an issue. One basically corrodes the heck out of the bearings whether big or small, since one has 52100 ball bearing steel exposed to dirty water, soaps and crap from corroding aluminum spiders too. This rusty ball bearing also leaks back rust on to white clothes too.