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Culture varies around the world

Nathan Here I have no duvets ; beds here are twin, full, queen and king and others.

A small comforter for a full bed will not fit into my 1976 FL washer with its spin basket of 2.5 to 2.6 cuft; it fits well into the LG machine with a 3.9 cuft drum rated at IEC 4.2

here is a shot of the comforter that will not fit in a old 1976 westy drum; but will fit ok and wash ok in the newer FL washer.

Culture varies around the world, here many americans are probably not going to go the the local coin laundromat several times a year to wash a comforter or larger load of items.

They often just buy a normal washer like the 4.2 IEC LG machine here. An normal washer sold here is made to handle things like a comforter.

The old machine like my 1976 westy has a 30 year record of being too small in drum size; ie few folks bought them. ie what Europeans want and uses Americans have already rejected as being too small.

3beltwesty++2-18-2011-14-07-58.jpg
 
"Load sense rotate, wobble, spin sequence" is at sta

RE:

3beltwesty "zero load confuses the software designed to sense load size, that is the delay": I cannot agree with this statement, unless such procedure is reserved to some machines... unknown to myself. As far as I have seen, in the absence of a wash load in the appliance basket the software will not take any measures therefore the basket will be allowed to enter the spin phase with no further delays. However, in some cases there could be more action involved simply because it's programmed to execute in such a way. :

Here in the USA a washer senses the load size first, then washes the clothe; then they are rinsed, SPIN is used to extract the water. ie it is the end of the cycle!

A USA FL machine often goes into a "Load sense rotate. wobble, spin sequence" at the START of the entire Wash/Rinse/Spin cycle; it is used to set the water level. If the washers software senses a larger load; it uses more water and this is an input in the software, besides the water level sensor.

With an odd load the "Load sense rotate. wobble, spin sequence" as the start takes longer. The machine wants a good estimate as to what is is washing. Maybe European machines are fully manual, ie no government trying to reduce water usage?

Here a washer never enters the SPIN phase at the start, it load senses, then washes, then rinses, then spins.
 
Hi 3belt

The cultural difference in the rest of the world would be to use duvets with a removable cover. The cover can be washed regularly and I air the duvet on the line every other month and have it dry cleaned every other year. Full size blankets fit in the 24" machines so it isn't too much of an impost every other year to get the duvet professionally cleaned.

Single bed down duvets fit in my 24" machine as do queen size acrylic. Anything bigger than that and I just send it out.

That's why everything just fits in the smaller units.

Nathan
 
Favorit

An aunt of mine had an older BOL AEG frontloader, I think it was a Lavamat F or so. The manual stated that only full loads could be spun. Half loads should be taken out of the machine and had to be spin dried in a separate spin dryer, or towels should be added to the machine so it could do a spin with a full load.
 
Here the water level in the tub and total water used varies

Favorit

RE "Filling the machine with more clothes has the machine using more water, thus the tubs level of water is higher"

3belt, that's wrong : the machine uses more water **to saturate the load** BUT the water level is always that same one for the stated cycle (low on cottons, med in woolens, very high on delicates)."

Here a FL washer's "total water usage" is not the same, it varies with the load size. The tub's level of water is varied too.

Thus with a stock Cotton setting If I only wash 2 pairs of blue jeans the machine senses a dinky load; ie 1 bar. It uses a lower amount of water. One can have the discharge water go in to an empty drum and it will be filled less with a small load of clothes. I actually have done this on my machine using 5 gallon buckets.

Case 2 larger load ; with the same stock Cotton setting ; If I only wash 10 pairs of blue jeans the machine senses a larger load ie 2 bars or maybe 3. It uses a MORE water. One can have the discharge water go in to an empty drum(s) and it will be filled more with a larger load of clothes.

One gets more discharge water volume in the buckets in case #2 with the larger load than case #1 with the smaller load.

*****Maybe this explains the constant dogma by non usa folks preaching for fully loading washers; ie your washers do not use less water with a smaller load?

A 1950 Westinghouse washer has this technology, except the user is the computer.

You measure the load size with the westy spring loaded door spring, then manually set the water level. ie "weight to save" is the Westinghouse slogan from 60 years ago.

Besides using the water level sensor as tub level feedback ; the modern LG FL washer uses the 1,2,3 and 4 bar load level as to how much to spray and rinse too.

Here the water level in the tub and total water used varies with the load size
 
Now I'm confused...

3beltwesty you qouted my statement in which I was talking about potential imbalance symptoms with different load configurations and then you went on talking about load size and wash sequences... I'm lost!

As to automatic water usage according to load size, most European FL do sense the load and adjust all the wash parameters accordingly... including for some the choice of most adequate drum rhythms for the fabric being washed (based on rate of absorbency). I own a budget FL and when it senses a very small loads it carries out only 2 rinses with a low water level instead of 3 with low water level or 3 with medium water level depending on the amount of times the soleinoid valve has opened to let more current water reach the tub. Having said that... for the sake of allowing a washing machine to be even more efficient, it should be filled to max capacity (without overloading it of course).

Just a quick example: generally, a machine with a max capacity of 6kg will wash 6kg of cottons using 45l... so, in this case we have a ratio Kg/l (45/6) of 7.5l which is the average water required for a kilo of laundry. If the same machine is set to wash 3kg of laundry it would use less water but it will not be directly proportional to the amount of laundry loaded, so let's say that the washer will require 35l to carry out the wash cycle with 3kg of laundry which in turn equates to a ratio of (35/3) 11.6l... thus higher water consumption per kg and so forth. This patterns usually affects automatic programmes 'fuzzy logic' enabled (or whatever other smart word you want to use), a different scenario is involved with other kind of cycles such as partial programmes, quick/rapid cycles, daily washes and so forth.
 
Everyone Is Running They...... So Am Joining In The Fray

One, Miele service and or part information *can* be found on the Internet if one knows how to search and where. I have them, not to mention a huge service book of Miele kitchen appliances (mainly ovens, cooktops etc...).

Miele tends to keep such information close to it's vest, at least as far as North American market is concerned for several reasons. One, the parts aren't available on these shores except from Miele. So it's not exactly clear what one would do with the information anyway. For those whom wish DIY, Miele will sell,ship and give information over the telephone and or via email/fax on how to do the repairs.

Regarding sales of various units, including "Little Giants".

To the best of my knowledge Miele does not *give* display units away to dealers, they have to purhase them, and as with everything else the stuff ain't cheap. If you think the market for "rinky dink" washers that cost *thousands)is small, try selling commercial machines that require 220v power (no and ifs or buts), and cost several thousands of dollars. In short your average Miele dealer isn't going to bother to even know about such things much less sell them. According to Miele persons I've spoken with the few USA domestic customers have "Little Giants" installed in domestic settings. Even then those sales were mainly pre-real estate crash when everyone was building "MacMansions" and or wanted commercial laundry appliances, perhaps for a very wealthy family with lots of children and or fine linens.

If dealers purchase Miele appliances for display, they are stuck with them until they sell, or Miele agrees to allow a price reduction. On rare cases Miele will take the units back, but even then nothing is sent back to Germany. Miele USA will allow certain employees to "bid" or otherwise purchase such units, or they may sit around until corporate finds a use for them.

Regarding Capacity:

My older Miele is rated for 11lbs and holds just that. Many newer front loaders both 24" and 27" may state they hold more, but if you read the owner's manual one is advised to load the washer 3/4's or less. My Miele as with others of it's class was built and can wash 11lbs of wash every day up to it's duty cycle limit for years without problems.

Am also here to tell you the Miele holds more, much more than the small 24" Whirlpool toploading portable I nabbed last year.

Miele units not matter what they are will always cost more because of shipping, taxes, duties and so forth. Miele has not gone the route of Bosch and build an NA plant, nor does it seem likely to go that route. There is no free lunch when it comes to appliances. You can either build quality that will cost, or pound out units for the masses that cost little.

As for purchasing a commercial front loader for home use. Well suppose one could do that, but not all dealers can or will sell to domestic end users. They also may not offer service or even warranty coverage under those situations. You can purchase whatever you want from fleaPay or elsewhere, but if something goes south, you could be on your own.

There is also the fact that until one gets into *very* expensive commercial units, cycles are limited and often difficult to change, or at least not as easy as simply pressing a button or turning a knob.

Miele makes all manner and sort of washers and dryers that never will see this side of the Atlantic. Much of it having to do with us being one of the few places left on earth relying on mainly 120v power for domestic use. Please do not go on about how many homes have "dryer outlets" and so froth. Obviously this was not the case for Miele never sold enough 220v powered units to make a major stake in here, and now only sells 120v units. Indeed while most all commercial units from the smallest to largest rely upon 220v power even without heaters, aside from perhaps a few Asko and maybe Bosch models *all* domestic front loaders sold here run on 120v.
 
I don't want to contribute to the Euro-American War on this thread, but I do want to clarify one point about water levels. Not all washers use a set water level.

My washer, a Whirlpool made Kenmore HE3t, varies the water level based on the size of the load. It measures the amount of water it takes to reach a set level, then adds a percentage more. So a small load of towels has a lower water level than a larger load of towels. When I say water level, I mean the height of the puddle as the washer tumbles, not the level of water when the tumbling pauses and the water drains out of the saturated load, raising the water level.

It doesn't even measure the water level in the rinses, it just added a calculated amount more based on how much was used during the wash. Actually, it can't measure the water level while it fills for the rinse because it keeps the drum spinning while it fills.
 
my godness !

3belt,
this seem a dialogue between deaf people ... *LOL*

"Same water level for different sized loads" DOES NOT mean "same amount of water", so both of us agree about the fact "bigger load = more water, smaller load = less water". Your buckets example is obvious.

I was just pointing out that the water level will be the same BUT the difference is in the amount of water required to have that very level with different load sizes

IMHO it's not matter of "I'm right, you're wrong" or worse "USA vs EU". We' d try to "walk with other posters shoes" to figure out what they actually mean :-)
 
@launderess it's a shame that Miele was late to the "dryer plug" converter adapter party and required a 220v plug installed. Supposedly now such a beast runs about $200. Probably would have been worth tens of millions in market share.

As for display units, you are still right although supposedly new dealers can get "favorable financing" to get them started. As for returns and dealer returns there is now a Miele Unboxed store and website. Supposedly a similar service may come to the US. Not sure how well the model will run given you only get a 1 year warranty and cannot purchase an extended warranty. 

 
 
 
SILLY NUMBERS full loads versus 1/2 loads saves me enough to

Haxisfan RE

******"for the sake of allowing a washing machine to be even more efficient, it should be filled to max capacity (without overloading it of course). "

This is only true here is one wants to chase absurdly small numbers!

Just look how small the numbers really are. The old 1976 FL Westinghouse FL washer here in rebuild only uses a max of 30 gallons back in 1976; the lowest of any washer in that era; 114 Liters.

Even today is cost for a full load is rather small. It only takes 0.22 to 0.24 Kwhr for a full 42 minute cycle. The water costs about a penny a gallon. A full load costs 30 cents in water, the electricity is about 3 cents for a wash load.

Washing with the water set level set lower can reduce the outlay to only 20 cents. The soap used here varies with the amount of clothes washed, I use less soap with a smaller load.

Washing a half load of clothes with the 1976 machine costs 23 cents versus about 33 cents with a full load; ie one has wasted 33 - 23= 10 cents.

If I wash 2.5 loads a week with the 1/2 loads; that is 130 loads a year @ 0.23=29.90

If I wash 1.25 loads a week with the full loads; that is 65 loads a year @ 0.33=21.45

I save 8.45 dollars a year by washing full loads versus 1/2 loads; in a mechine from cicra 1976.

*****I have wasted thus 8.45 dollars per year; ie 2.3 cents a day in waste.

The water is so soft here that a jug of All He I buy on sale lasts about a year. I have only used 3 jugs of soap since Katrina in 2005; the total outlay of about less than 20 to 30 bucks max.

Here with the long experience of using the 1976 FL westy for 3 decades ; I really have never found that the machine has to be filled full to wash well. A 3/4, 1/2, or 1/4 load washes just as well too as a full load. I have used FL washers since the 1950's and never heard about this issue before coming to this website.

Thus the comment of:

" for the sake of allowing a washing machine to be even more efficient, it should be filled to max capacity (without overloading it of course)."

saves me 8.45 dollars worth cost in water and electricity per year; assuming my time is worth zero and I want to buy more clothes to fill, the washer in all cases.

Here the 2.3 cents per day loss in cost by just washing what is required is not an issue.

It is more efficient to worry about what my time is worth; versus worrying about saving 2.3 cents in 24 hours; ie 96 millacents per hour. Federal minimum wage is 725 cents per hour, this is 725/0.096 about 7500 times more per hour than the washers waste in doing 1/2 loads. Thus a person earning minimum wage does not worry about such silly small numbers.

The typical person here does not worry about costs in the parts per million level they worry about the costs that matter. Gee do I worry about the 2.3 cents per day washer cost with 1/2 loads; or my cellphone bill of 100 times higher with data plans and extra stuff? The food cost rises are such that last weeks grocery store vist already wiped out that 8.45 dollars per year savings in one store vist due to the massive price increases. With crafty shopping in a few stores one can save many times more than the 8.45 savings.

For the newer LG FL washer; its water usage is less and electrical too. The waste with a 1/2 load versus a full load thus has a giant cost for me of maybe a 1 cent per a day thus worrying about the waste is absurd.

ie I can wash full loads to save money; and in one year I have saved 3.65 dollars; I can buy a big Mac at McDonalds, or a gallon of gasoline; or a beer in bar.

****In the scheme of ones daily costs of existance here; the waste of washing 1/2 versus full loads is not measurable.

I might as well say Germans can payoff Greece's debt by skipping one beer a year.

Thus here whether I wash 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, or full loads I cannot even measure the added cost or savings.

SINCE the cost is not measurable and load size does not change how well stuff is cleaned; here the worry about 1/2 versus full loads is TOTALLY absurd.

It is right up there as worry with UFO's and worrys if an ant on a freight train makes it burn more diesel oil.

In theory it does.

the ant weights 3mg.

The train burns 1 gallon of diesel in 435 miles .

If the train travels to the Sun it has burned 214000 gallons per ton of freight in 93 million miles.

the ant weights 3.3 billionths of a 2000 lb ton.

the ant thus burns 0.000707 gallons of diesel = 0.0027 liters,

ie 2.7 ml. the ant worries about this big amount of diesel; it is 900 times his weight; it might take 2 dozen trip for him to carry this added diesel to the fuel car.

Thus most folks here do not worry about silly numbers; one's TIME is what is used.

Ie it really does not matter in costs at all if I wash with varied machine loadings.

If I saved 1 penny a day; I could by a new car in 1000 + YEARs!
 
What????

for goodness sake.....

 

'Ants and freight trains'....where did that drivel come from and how on earth (rather than the moon) did this manage to Segway in that direction?

 

 
 
What I would like

We have been back and forth, and all over the place on this thread.  Here is what I would like:

 

Those of us that have larger USA/Canadian/Whatever/  FL such as LG, Samsung, Frigidare, Bosch, GE,  Whirlpool, Maytag, Kenmore, Electrolux...Miele, etc.  Please fill you machines with MULTIPLE items so that it is completely full to the top with dry items.  Ignore the manufactures loading instructions. Do several of these loads, posting some pictures/vids of washes and rinses if possible.  Then tell us how YOU think the machine did in regard to washing(cleaning), rinsing and spinning these loads. Include the brand of detergent that was used also.

 

 
 
I asked a very similar question a few weeks ago.....and Rosc

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<span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">Post# 494177, Reply# 31   02/06/2011 at 10:44 by <a name="startPOSTER_32773.31"></a>roscoe62 <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;"><a name="endPOSTER_32773.31"></a></span></strong>(Canada)     </span></span><span style="font-family: Arial; color: #008000; font-size: x-small;">posts: 63</span> <a name="startMAOL_32773.31"></a><span style="font-family: Arial; color: #008000; font-size: x-small;"> </span> <a name="endMAOL_32773.31"></a><a name="startCOMX_32773.31">@ronhic

<strong>Well I put two more towels in my machine today along with eight hand towels that are a fair size so I had in total eight towels about 30x50 in size and eight hand towels 18 x 23 and said, here we go.Lets see if the machine performs differently with a fuller load and it did.
I wasn't impressed, it didn't rinse very well, it seemed to not fill the way it usually does, like the machine was laboring but I did get my hands and arms over the load before I started the machine to make certain it would have the room to tumble. It didn't spin as dry and the machine had one hell of a time trying to get it to balance to go into spin, at one point I left the room it was too antagonizing to watch any more.When it came time to take it out, it was so tangled I felt like setting it all on fire, UHH!!!
Then I had to separate the load into two and redo the rinse but I dried it all together, and it came out kinda hard not as soft as they normally do with just six towels and remember I used no fabric conditioner or dryer sheets period on towels they don't need it.As a rule they dry pretty soft without it but not this time, it could have been longer drying time in the dryer that caused this?
So the answer is NO, a bigger machine does not mean better, it's great for the bulkier items but in my experience it didn't do a better job on a larger load, as it says it should.


</strong></a>


 

 

   
 
I went from a Maytag 612 to a Frigidaire 1-18 to the Miele 1918.  The Miele holds the same amount of laundry.  It cleans and rinsed better (once reprogrammed for high water level rinses).  You can argue the numbers all day long, but at the end of the day, if you use your machines intelligently, the small Euro machines can hold just as much as a large US toploader.
 
Capacity

Would be good to have confirmirmations on what goes into what...you can take any machine and as long as you work with its variables, good wash results will ensure...

It may work out only a few cents here and there but when the rest of the planet has mega high prices for water, electricity and gas fuel then you see the difference over than your phone bill...

I think for me I get irked when I still hear "Small Euro" capacity machines, these 60cm washers are "Standard and Normal size over a vast area of this planet, perhaps a more correct terminology should be domestic "Standard and Extra Large or Uber Sized" capacity ...thats the thing with words, definitions are mis-interpreted and points of view go out the window!!!

Wet Clean Anyone!!! Oh When Front Loaders Rinsed Like This!!!

chestermikeuk++2-19-2011-04-05-33.jpg
 
Wet Clean Anyone!!! Oh When Front Loaders Rinsed Like This!!

Oh for a Keymatic!

 

Though in all fairness, my Zanussi built Westinghouse (think John Lewis machine) has 2 deep rinses on the 'quick' cycle....and that works fine for most loads. It's only when it's full of towels or I want a long wash that I let it run a 'normal' cycle
 
3beltwesty... thank you for going at such length to justify your point of view. I'm sure what you're saying makes a lot of sense but it does not unfortunately apply to all places on earth where the usable resources you mentioned are priced well differently. I merely stated a fact... and it is a fact that any washer is more efficient when run with a full load no matter how much by... as the amount of energy, water and even detergent used per kilogram of laundry will never be directly proportional to the decreasing/increasing of a given load of clothes... so, a smaller load entails by all means less use of resources but two half loads will be more wasteful than one full load... period.

And there's more... by looking at your figures and considering them on a wider scale they would alter the concept of waste of resources dramatically: you might as well consider $8.00 to be an insignificant amount for yourself but how many families in the US use washing machines? Try to multiply that $8.00 by the number of users in your country and see what amount of (collective) savings can be achieved.

Yet... you do not need to convince me as I run the washer with any kind or size of load as needed... but if and when I can help, I gather enough items to share the same cycle for the sake of filling up the washer. Again, I don't think you have to go out and squander on clothes and all sorts of textile just for the sake of filling up your washer... the moral: I feel it's important to be aware of the differences highleted in this thread rather than just coming up with a justication for one's actions of the type "well, this is a ridicolous sum of money to save".
 
I did one load as Jerrod suggested, a fairly large load of towels. I filled it up until I could just get my hand in the top of the load. It washed, rinsed, and spun out the same as usual. Everything is perfectly clean. The main differences are that with really big loads it takes longer for the wash "direct inject" fill (about 5 minutes), the rinse spin fill (about 3.5 minutes), and the spin routine is longer. Instead of a brief spin after the wash, it held the top (intermediate) spin speed for 1 minute, 40 seconds. The final spin added an extra burst and fluff.

It is a 2003 Kenmore HE3t (sister to Whirlpool Duet). Here is a pic of the dry load. I will also post the wet towels at the end of the cycle.

joe_in_philly++2-20-2011-00-46-36.jpg
 
I fill mine up to where I want to fill it.If I want to use my pool to wash my shirt then I will.I have four 4 wheeler's,2 Sea-doos,my family has about 7 4-wheel drives,My Mom has never took her Mercedes M.L.K. 420 off road.My Family farm is over 1500 acres and that's just the farm we have other house's also.My Aunt has Two Dishwasher's I picked out Mile commercial's that pump 109 gallons a min because she wanted them and they look good.Well I need to go to the store I have my RANGE ROVER IDLING for a few hours to warm up.:)
 
volsboy1

Thank you for sharing with us a wonderful example of the "I'll do what I want and screw the rest of you" attitude we know and despise so much.

Matt
 
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