Why Did Older Dishwasher Have Such Enormous Motors?

[Chetlaham]

Post pics of the inside when you can. No offense, I can't see that handling bits of food like a Power Clean. I wish the EU had 230 volt 50Hz power cleans with the space to install them. The dishwasher in post #13, and its latter iterations, should be all over Europe.

 

[hoover1100]

From my (admittedly vague) understanding of the filter

When the machine is washing or rinsing the water is drawn across the filter and any food particles are trapped in the filter and under the high temperature, mechanically softened water and strong alkaline detergent being dragged across it for an extended time at pressure, the vast majority of food is simply dissolved.

When the machine drains, the water is pumped downwards, dragging any food particles remaining off the filter and out down the drain.

Until I can get pictures of my machine, I have attached a picture of the replacement filter for this model.

 

[Chetlaham]

Interesting.

 

How many gallons of water for each cycle? Is there a soil sensor? My model has a turbidity sensor that sends light through the water to determine how the cycle should progress. Poor light shine through indicates the need for more water change outs and loner cycle times.

 

 

My motor is an across the line PSC, with food chopper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the motor, both wash arms run at the same time including the top sprayer:

 

 

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Clean mine, too--and what a difference it makes when I don't have things that have to be rewashed...

 

Put on gloves of course, and have to bear with removing stuff that looks like I just ate often after I just ate (yeeeccchhh!!!!)...

 

So, no, no dishwasher other than some having a built-in scrap grinder designed to pulverize small particles of food, a dishwasher is not a food-waste disposal...

 

Success speaks for itself--and that is mine never gets clogged up and full of water from any of the gunk I really am led to believe a dishwasher is capable of getting off--none really is!!!!

 

I remove my own threatening amounts, and in short, everything gets clean...

 

 

-- Dave

 

[Chetlaham]

Filters in dishwashers ought to be self cleaning. This is specifically why I bought my Maytag dishwasher. I've never had to clean a filter and I can load dirty.

 

[hoover1100]

As far as I'm aware

There is no soil sensor, it's a pretty entry level model from approx the mid 00's.

13L for a normal wash, 17L with a pre-rinse, according to Google that's 3.4 US Gallons and 4.5 US gallons respectively, a bit high for current European standards but as I say it is an entry level model and potentially around 20 years old. I have used more modern Bosch models which only used about 1.9 US gallons which performed just as well.

 

[lavamat_jon]

Chet,

In answer to your questions;

1) Very easily, this is a basic requisite of any dishwasher.

2) That dish was in a fully stacked “Bobload”, loaded alongside saucepans, plates, glassware, teapot, Pyrex jug etc. and a fully loaded cutlery tray. No redeposits on anything. Rinse water is always clear on the one time I’ve bothered to check. Each water fill is 2-3 litres, usually with 4 or 5 water changes depending on the load. Should I want more water, a forced prewash and an extra rinse, I can choose to do so with an option but I never really have the need to. Everyday items without any baked on soiling come clean from the quick cycle (which can be either 58mins or 1:23) with just 3 water changes and 8-9l of water.

3) No particles remain at all on the load at the end of the cycle. I have even dumped the coffee grounds from my bean-to-cup coffee machine, and asides from one or two tiny grounds there was no evidence of coffee. I would count that as a success.

All with minimal amounts of water, but enough to do the jobs. Pretty much any decent modern European dishwasher can achieve this.

It sounds like we agree on what needs to be scraped off, so I don’t see your earlier point of any excessive pre-prep that supposedly has to be done before loading a filter based dishwasher. The detergents dissolve most food particles which are flushed down the drain when the machine pumps out.

I can understand your scepticism if you’ve never had any direct experience, and you’re right to question anything you personally can’t understand and find difficult to believe. I cant comment on the US dishwashers as I have never used one but all I can do is testify to how well our filter based dishwashers work here, with as little energy/water as possible. And I’m sure you will agree that if something can be done to a high standard in the least wasteful way possible, that is only a positive thing for the world.

On a different subject, for the sake of your health I would look at moving away from all that awful processed food in your diet, it’s not good for you.

Jon

 

[maytag85]

Reply #52

I believe the Ford 306 was a completely different engine than the 300 inline 6.

The 300 inline 6 started out life as the 240 inline 6 when it debuted in 1965, sometime in the 70’s the displacement was increased to 300 ci. Was such an indestructible engine, was even used for marine applications such as industrial generator engines, water pump engines etc.

During the cash for clunkers program in 2009, they drained the oil out of many 300 inline sixes to kill them off, literally kept on running without any oil for several minutes, several attempts later, still kept running, they eventually gave up on trying to kill them off.

Maybe I should create a thread in the Super forum index in the future about the longest running engines of all time.

 

[Chetlaham]

I'd really like to try your machines out with your detergent and your softened water. Its possible they may actually achieve great results with true prep-less loading. Being honest I am skeptical as your machines are different from anything I've known to achieve great results. So I'll remain humble on this one, its only fair and logical thing to do. I am not about ego, but rather performance so I'll take your word albeit still be skeptical on my part.

 

There are two things however we may have to disagree on potentially:

 

How water and energy are used is trivial in terms of production. There are forums of energy which are essentially free and so abundant they make end use conservation irrelevant. With our modern production of water and energy the impact conservation makes is almost non existent. I don't want to derail this thread so I will leave it at that.  

 

Looking at the wiring, programming and construction of EU machines makes them more complicated than many US machines, especially older US machines. Complexity only creates longevity and serviceability problems for the end user even if it saves a lot of energy.

 

   

 

[combo52]

Hi Sean, Correction, in reply #52 it should have said 300 CI 6 cylinder engine I don't think there was ever a 306 CI engine

John

 

[maytaga806]

Chet, we have the same Maytag dishwasher. It’s become my favorite modern dishwasher out of all the machines I’ve used. Absolutely fantastic dishwasher, I’ve never had one dish come out dirty after a cycle, for a modern machine it’s got some good power to it, the results achieved by this machine is no different than my 2006 Powerclean, cleans just as well which I was actually very surprised by but I think this has to do with the size of the motor it has which is nothing like the power cleans of course but from my understanding is still bigger than most modern dishwashers.

There are two strainers in the sump that do need regular cleaning I do ours twice a year. It’s important not to get food bits into this machine, a con compared to a Powerclean for sure but it’s a remarkably awesome dishwasher for something newer and way better than the previous point voyager generation. This was Whirlpools last good dishwasher they made as far as I’m concerned besides the base model with a plastic interior. Be grateful you have that Maytag, it’s one of a kind that didn’t last very long and it was highly under rated.

 

[Chetlaham]

Out of all the the tall tub dishwashers I've researched and owned the Maytag MDB series is by far the best I've ever used. By far. The cycle will adapt significantly to soil adding water, change outs, purges, time and heat as needed. No stinginess. The motor labelled 0.18 HP, small, but still more powerful than most modern tall tubs. There is a soft food chopper that grinds thing well. And of course excellent fine filtration. It is the best tall tub dishwasher Whirlpool has ever made and then some.

 

  https://www.repairclinic.com/PartDetail/Circulation-Pump/W10815709/4283262

 

https://www.repairclinic.com/PartDetail/Pump-And-Motor-Assembly/WPW10591570/3449786
 

 

Can you quote the manual I posted or show me what two filters need cleaning? I've never cleaned anything. The metal shield is crimped in place. My understanding is you are not supposed to touch the mechanism as its 100% self cleaning. No smells or stink either.

 

Overall I am happy with my Maytag, it is the second best thing next to a Power Clean Module and I'm not taking anything for granted as time has taught me. My biggest mistake was leaving the Power Clean behind at the old place. Dumb, because even back in the 2000s I had an understanding of what dishwashers were good and what weren't. By the time I wised up and went looking to buy a new Power Clean they were already out of production.

 

[Chetlaham]

Just to Add

This is my second Maytag MDB, the first one I had a while back was even quieter than this one had the silk gliding rail which Whirlpool has since discontinued. The plastic retainers began failing and the that ball bearings began popping out falling into the sump and eventually the macerator where they would make noise. Eventually the rail broke apart and the top rack kept falling into the lower rack. I had to rip tie the broken rail in place rendering the top rack unusable. That and the amount of ball bearings the pump had swallowed (at least three dozen) drove me to buy a near identical machine new but without the satin glide racks. The new model has a long heated dry option which is great.

 

[maytaga806]

Yes I’ll just give you a video of it as that’ll be easier than explaining. Even though it’s a self cleaning sump, sometimes depending on how you load dishes in soil wise it may need cleaning. Broken glass can get down into this as well which has happened with ours.



I fully agree! It’s my next favorite to a Powerclean but the only modern dishwasher I like. It was perfectly designed, very sleek yet durable & simple and provides the best of the best performance. Beautiful machines. It was too short lived. Your new model is absolutely gorgeous. I was looking for a top control for my family’s home but scored a front control instead that was about a year and a half old when we got it. 2019 model.

 

[Chetlaham]

Thanks for the compliment!

 

Ah, OK, I see now what you're doing. Yes the module can be taken apart if something gets inside or becomes cruddy.

 

 

Personally I've never cleaned the power module. I just load, use one or two Cascade Platinum plus pods one in the main detergent drawer and one in the silverware basket for cooked on loads/cruddy loads. Great results.

 

 

Keep your dishwashers in service as long as you can. This is probably the second best dishwasher ever produced in existence. It is reasonably durable, sturdy, tough racks, flexible loading, great scrubbing, soil handling, quiet, long heated dry and the turbidity sensor will add as much heat and water as reasonably needed to get the load spotless. 

 

I don't know why folks here are showing show much disapproval over water consumption. Yes this machine can get a load of fully pre-rinsed dishes clean with only 3 gallons of water. However when you load batter, grease and mashed potato caked on loads along with week old plates the extra water change outs make all the difference in the world.

 

On other thing worth mentioning. I don't use rinse-aid. Despite this glasses dry streak and spot free. This dishwasher is definitely Whirlpools top 10 best products. 

 

[DADoES]

 
I'm always befuddled at how much presumably-edible food some people apparently are tossing away into their dishwashers.

 

[Chetlaham]

@dadoes: I think we will have to agree to disagree. The edible food being "tossed" in is how dishes are supposed to be prepped- very minimally. Bowls, pans, saucers, ect will always have bits food stuck to them- sometimes more than others depending on the sauce or how clingy the food bits are. It is not practical to remove every piece unless you want to waste time, water or both.  

 

The comments on the video in post #73 describe a common problem encountered by Americans- grunge build-up due to insufficient food particle management in modern dishwashers.

 

 

Before anyone say this is only the result of dishwasher misuse I encourage you to read <span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Post# 941638 in this thread: </span></span>

 

 

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?71137
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We know how John loads his dishwashers. Unlike most Americans John had the option of going back to a dishwasher that actually works. Other Americans don't have that option tiring of the constant smells/grunge/cleaning/service calls and just switch to pre-rinsing dishes wasting on orders of magnitude more water than any dishwasher has ever used.

 

 

 

 

[Chetlaham]

@dadoes: I think we will have to agree to disagree. The edible food being "tossed" in is how dishes are supposed to be prepped- very minimally. Bowls, pans, saucers, ect will always have bits food stuck to them- sometimes more than others depending on the sauce or how clingy the food bits are. It is not practical to remove every piece unless you want to waste time, water or both.  



 



The comments on the video in post #73 describe a common problem encountered by Americans- grunge build-up due to insufficient food particle management in modern dishwashers.



 



 



Before anyone say this is only the result of dishwasher misuse I encourage you to read <span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Post# 941638 in this thread:
</span></span>

 

<strong><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?71137</span></span></strong>

 



We know how John loads his dishwashers. Unlike most Americans John had the option of going back to a dishwasher that actually works. Other Americans don't have that option tiring of the constant smells/grunge/cleaning/service calls and just switch to pre-rinsing dishes wasting on orders of magnitude more water than any dishwasher has ever used.



 

 

[maytaga806]

Due to these modern dishwashers being tall tubs they don’t have the same amount of room to have these big self cleaning modules that actually seperate soils and flush them during draining. There’s a metal screen over the food chopper on the MDB series that sits directly outside of the motor, in order to access it you have to flip the machine upside down. Anyway the chopper screen can get plugged if your not careful and load lots of food chunks into the machine and in this video I saw of how to fix this issue the guy said his dishwasher wasn’t cleaning well anymore and it was because of a plugged food chopper screen. It was so disgusting I’ve never seen anything like it. It’s so important not to load any foot bits into modern machines that have these so called self cleaning filters because in reality they are not that, unfortunately food gets stuck in that screen and plugs water flow overtime the worse and more plugged that screen gets. But if your careful while loading this should never be a problem. This is my only issue with this machine but it’s no big deal to me and everytime I clean those two strainers out under the lower wash arm of the sump it’s usually very clean but I always want to ensure water can flow smoothly for the best of performance. We ever so slightly rinse dishes that have hunks of food on them to prevent anything from clogging that screen.

Chet do you have issues with your dispenser getting flooded during the pre rinse? If we use pacs they are almost totally dissolved by the end of the pre rinse, making it pointless when it comes to the main wash and all the detergent has already been dissolved and leaked into the pre rinse waters. Doesn’t seem to be as much of a thing when we use gel, we use the cascade complete blue gel which works excellent in our water at this particular house on top of rinse aid set at the third setting. Anymore rinse aid than that will cause a suds lock! This dispenser for some reason is not sealed well at all.

 

[Chetlaham]

@maytaga806: Yes, I have the same issue. The dispenser is completely filled with water and the detergent tab is fully dissolved. There are even suds in the pre-rinse water. Sadly I've used many dishwashers where the dispenser becomes completely filled with water including latter model GE.

 

Whirlpool standard tubs got it right, they had a seal all the way around the main detergent lid, and the latch would force the lid to stay firmly down.

 

 

 

[maytaga806]

I know right? My portable Powerclean doesn’t even get a hint of moisture during the pre wash in the closed cup, keeps it nicely in tact til it’s time to pop open. Glad we’re not the only ones.

 

[neptunebob]

But if you use a good detergent and hot enough water..

Most of the problems everyone refers to here will not exist.  

 

My MIL is 89 and lives alone in her family house and years ago had a very expensive KitchenAid dishwasher installed there.  It did have the porcelain tub so must have been soon after the Whirlpool takeover.  

 

Recently my sister and her husband went to her house and found the dishwasher stunk of high heaven.  Some of the other neighbors came over and took the machine apart and cleaned the filters and they were all full of gross gunk.  How did it get that way?

 

My sister asked "Alice" where she kept the Cascade or Finish and she didn't know, it turns out Alice ran the machine without detergent at all. 

 

Her water heater was also turned down so that it was barely warm enough for a shower.  

 

She stocked Alice up with paper plates and utensils, bought some detergent and turned up the water heater some (telling Alice she did that and be careful), hopefully the odors will not come back.

 

Oh, and Alice did pre rinse (It seems like mostly women do this) using a lot of water and since she is on septic there were wet spots in the back yard.  

 

[Chetlaham]

You're not the only one. Modern dishwasher detergent dispensers suck.

 

The Power Clean could hold you through a pre wash thermal hold, and then dispense nice, fresh detergent for the main wash. A true marvel. The Power Clean was a perfected design in almost every way possible, a timeless classic. It could have easily stayed in production for decades more. If everyone was like me the Power Clean would in 95% of all Kitchens with Hobart Kitchen Aid type construction. Available in Polymer, Stainless Steal and Porcelain on Steal from BOLs all the way up to TOL models. Single cycle dispenser-less entry level machines all the way up to deluxe multi cycle LCD control tri dispenser multi orbital wash arm models and everything in between. Indestructible metal screw on drain check valve assembly. The module and motor would be a regularly replaceable item stocked in stores and online- as common as the direct drive motor coupler. Molex plug wire harness such that different timers, cycle fascias, escutcheons, ect can be adapted to almost any machine. 

 

The world would simply stop prewashing dishes and at 11 gallons of water per cycle on average water consumption would drop dramatically compared to modern tall tubs.

 

[neptunebob]

But Chet...

What would you have done if you were faced with our "Alice situation"?

 

[Chetlaham]

Forgive my ignorance, but what are you referring to as an Alice Situation?

 

[cfz2882]

alice situation

no detergent and insufficient water temp

 

[Chetlaham]

Turn up the temp and instruct the use of lots of detergent. I don't know how well generous detergent dosing would work for a year, so I might have to clean the sump and pump out. 

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>chetlaham:  Forgive my ignorance, but what are you referring to as an Alice Situation?</blockquote> See Reply# 81 above.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to chetlaham

Modern dishwashers seem to have weak sprays, forcing them to run longer. In addition, dishwasher detergents and rinse aids have fragrance because food tends to stink up the dishwasher. My Bosch/Kenmore will smell like whatever food I've eaten, from blueberry pancakes and coffee to shrimp Alfredo casserole. Finish ultimate takes care of that.

 

[Chetlaham]

Jerome, your observations are correct. To wash dishes you need four things:

 

1) Mechanical energy

 

2) Chemical energy

 

3) Thermal energy

 

4) Time

 

When one or more of these are reduced others must be increased to compensate. Exception for enzymes which work in stages over time. This is why modern dishwashers spend so much time washing and rinsing to compensate for weak low pressure, low volume sprays and low thermal hold satisfaction points.

 

Modern dishwashers simply do not use enough water, and do not have the macerators, filters or large enough pumps to properly capture, grind, collect and carry away food soils. Soils accumulate within the internal parts of the machine accumulating and begining to smell over time. Modern dishwashers are not practical or capable in residential applications. 

 

 

People did not know what they had with the Power Clean Filter module and Maytag Jetclean. Even commercial dish machines with motors 1HP and over are not meant to handle un-preped dishes as food bits just accumulate on top of the sump strainer.  Commercial machines are meant to be used for fine cleaning and sanitation. 

 

 

https://www.jacksonwws.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/DishStar-LT-Operation-Guide.pdf
 

 

 

Unlike a restaurant, residential users typically have the luxury of waiting an hour for their machines to complete a cycle- enough time for a machine to do pre-rinsing, scouring, coarse cleaning, soil roundup, automatic filter cleaning in addition to fine cleaning and sanitation. There is no reason why users must complete 5 steps prior to turning on their machines in order to have civilized results- ie not having stink over time.   

[this post was last edited: 8/25/2024-08:49]