Thank you very much for everyone's comments! You folks have made it clear to me that buying something that lasts is the more environmentally-responsible solution. I went to my local department store to look at new laundry equipment, and I found the "crap" machines (Frigidaire, GE, Samsung) offer lots of high-tech at very attractive prices. There was a Bosch washer, but I found the size of the drum was a bit small for our needs. Of course it also cost considerably more than their Korean counterparts. Are the fundamentals of the "crap" and "good" machines the same? Like my sister said, technology (especially computer-related) advances almost every year; take a look at iPhones and iPads! Has technology in washers/dryers changed a lot in the past 20 years? Will I still save just as much water and electricity, with a machine purchased now, 20 years down the road?
Why purchase a washer that lasts?
- Thread starter bobo
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@bobo:
It's probably reasonable to ask how much technology is really needed to clean clothes given a certain amount of water.
What does it take to clean a good-sized load of laundry using 40 or so gallons of water? That question was answered about 60 years ago.
What does it take to clean a good-sized load of laundry using 15 gallons of water? A more complex and expensive machine than is needed to use 40 gallons.
What does it take to clean a good-sized load of laundry using 5 gallons of water? Who says we should only use 5 gallons of water?
People in Arizona and Nevada probably don't buy as many dehumidifiers as people in Iowa. People in Arizona and Nevada can use swamp coolers in the summer, but those don't work work in Iowa where the dewpoint is 65-70F.
Maybe we should have a variety of laundry machines available that people can select from based upon regional conditions of water availability and cost.
It's probably reasonable to ask how much technology is really needed to clean clothes given a certain amount of water.
What does it take to clean a good-sized load of laundry using 40 or so gallons of water? That question was answered about 60 years ago.
What does it take to clean a good-sized load of laundry using 15 gallons of water? A more complex and expensive machine than is needed to use 40 gallons.
What does it take to clean a good-sized load of laundry using 5 gallons of water? Who says we should only use 5 gallons of water?
People in Arizona and Nevada probably don't buy as many dehumidifiers as people in Iowa. People in Arizona and Nevada can use swamp coolers in the summer, but those don't work work in Iowa where the dewpoint is 65-70F.
Maybe we should have a variety of laundry machines available that people can select from based upon regional conditions of water availability and cost.
Cookietaster12
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- 39
@ Lowegian: I have the service plan from SEARS that I purchased along with the FL set. It gives you a 1 yr check up each year you have the service plan, and they come out and do a thorough inspection of both the washer and dryer. They check for error codes, leaks, etc. They check for everything. For the dryer, they vacuum the lint from everywhere once they remove the outer casing. So, you wont have to. They even check the dryer vent to make sure there is no build up in there. Very good investment that can extend the life of any set that you purchase.
All Front load machines work on the same principal. Same with top loaders as well.
The biggest difference between the highest end machines and the lowest end machines are just extra things they added in there to give you more cycles, some gadgets and gizmos. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll get more quality or cleaner clothing.
My big question is, if the ones with lots of electronics are cheap, how much did they actually spend on the washer components themselves as opposed to the electronics?
I prefer to focus on buying a machine where the components of the machine are the expensive part and the electronics are only there because they have to be. Unfortunately, that means focusing on light commercial machines instead of consumer grade stuff, which means there are no bells and whistles.
The sad part is, spending more on a higher end consumer machine doesn't necessarily mean it'll be more reliable. In fact, in a lot of cases, those gizmos break and stop working after a while.. Like the notorious steam generator found in LG machines, which is just a Thermoblock... instead of using a proper heating element in the outer tub. Poor engineering? Absolutely.
The biggest difference between the highest end machines and the lowest end machines are just extra things they added in there to give you more cycles, some gadgets and gizmos. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll get more quality or cleaner clothing.
My big question is, if the ones with lots of electronics are cheap, how much did they actually spend on the washer components themselves as opposed to the electronics?
I prefer to focus on buying a machine where the components of the machine are the expensive part and the electronics are only there because they have to be. Unfortunately, that means focusing on light commercial machines instead of consumer grade stuff, which means there are no bells and whistles.
The sad part is, spending more on a higher end consumer machine doesn't necessarily mean it'll be more reliable. In fact, in a lot of cases, those gizmos break and stop working after a while.. Like the notorious steam generator found in LG machines, which is just a Thermoblock... instead of using a proper heating element in the outer tub. Poor engineering? Absolutely.
I walked by Sears today and saw a pair of Kenmore units at the front lobby. They were Korean-made (Samsung/LG?), and looked cheap and plasticky on the outside. I opened the glass door on the washer, and the hinges felt flimsy (i.e., I thought the door was going to fall off). At that point, I finally understood the true connotation of "crap" machines, what everyone in this forum has been saying all along. I think I'll take my family to Miele and Speed Queen dealers this weekend!
Here is a PDF flyer I like to show people when you compare a cheap front loader to a more expensive one...
- Hinge. Look at the door hinge. This door is going to be opened and closed thousands of times during the lifetime of the machine. The weight of the door has to be supported by that hinge.
- Suspension. You can't see it, but the PDF makes this point very apparent.
- Tub. Stainless steel doesn't hold odors. It doesn't grow mold. The looks of all front loaders are deceiving because they always use stainless steel inner tubs. The outer tub is something you don't see. These plastic tubs are the reason why front loaders get stinky after a while and need Affresh. Teardowns of used front loaders show the inside of the plastic tub as being absolutely filthy. The worst part, they contain ridges inside to strengthen the plastic, but instead trap dirt.
- Trunnion Shaft. A larger trunnion shaft means a larger bearing. Bearing failure is a big part of the problems that front loaders have. Lots of people tend to overload their front loaders. The big problem is, North American front loaders have large tubs to attract consumers, however the machine isn't equipped to be able to handle the weight of the wet clothing that sized drum will hold! (Hence, most consumer grade front loaders lasting between 5-10 years, if that.)
- Steel parts as opposed to plastic parts. Which would you rather have? The only rationale for using plastic parts is to bring down manufacturing and labor costs.
- Baffles - Plastic hollow baffles hold dirt, smutz, mold, etc. European front loaders use metal baffles for a reason, you shouldn't consider anything else.
That's a few of the key differences right there.
home.huebsch.com
- Hinge. Look at the door hinge. This door is going to be opened and closed thousands of times during the lifetime of the machine. The weight of the door has to be supported by that hinge.
- Suspension. You can't see it, but the PDF makes this point very apparent.
- Tub. Stainless steel doesn't hold odors. It doesn't grow mold. The looks of all front loaders are deceiving because they always use stainless steel inner tubs. The outer tub is something you don't see. These plastic tubs are the reason why front loaders get stinky after a while and need Affresh. Teardowns of used front loaders show the inside of the plastic tub as being absolutely filthy. The worst part, they contain ridges inside to strengthen the plastic, but instead trap dirt.
- Trunnion Shaft. A larger trunnion shaft means a larger bearing. Bearing failure is a big part of the problems that front loaders have. Lots of people tend to overload their front loaders. The big problem is, North American front loaders have large tubs to attract consumers, however the machine isn't equipped to be able to handle the weight of the wet clothing that sized drum will hold! (Hence, most consumer grade front loaders lasting between 5-10 years, if that.)
- Steel parts as opposed to plastic parts. Which would you rather have? The only rationale for using plastic parts is to bring down manufacturing and labor costs.
- Baffles - Plastic hollow baffles hold dirt, smutz, mold, etc. European front loaders use metal baffles for a reason, you shouldn't consider anything else.
That's a few of the key differences right there.
Huebsch Home Products
home.huebsch.com
It All..
Comes down to what you buy and how you use it, the stainless steel and rigid metal base as the best doesnt hold that same concept - V-Zug blows that one out of the water straight away, it uses a polycarbon outer drum with a 2 inch plastic extruded base - and if Carlsberg made washers that would be it as the dearest out there!!, I have also still seen washers with stainless inner & outer drums still full of odour and mold from all the connecting door boots, rubber hoses and non cleaning of the detergent dispenser (granted a user error) low temps and liquids....
I do agree with a seperate rigid base where the struts stand proud and the tub is not totally relying on top mounted cabinet springs..
Paddles need to be large and metal formed within the drum - although the majority of EU machines are plastic - some do break regulary!!
I also want a dispenser that is large, smooth sided with spray jets that dispense and disperse the additives in one go also flushing...
With good electronics and motor control even the cheaper EU machines last, its all down to how you use it and look after the machine!
Comes down to what you buy and how you use it, the stainless steel and rigid metal base as the best doesnt hold that same concept - V-Zug blows that one out of the water straight away, it uses a polycarbon outer drum with a 2 inch plastic extruded base - and if Carlsberg made washers that would be it as the dearest out there!!, I have also still seen washers with stainless inner & outer drums still full of odour and mold from all the connecting door boots, rubber hoses and non cleaning of the detergent dispenser (granted a user error) low temps and liquids....
I do agree with a seperate rigid base where the struts stand proud and the tub is not totally relying on top mounted cabinet springs..
Paddles need to be large and metal formed within the drum - although the majority of EU machines are plastic - some do break regulary!!
I also want a dispenser that is large, smooth sided with spray jets that dispense and disperse the additives in one go also flushing...
With good electronics and motor control even the cheaper EU machines last, its all down to how you use it and look after the machine!
@Cookietaster12:
I didn't realize there was such a service available. Do you mind if I ask what that service costs?
I've always been a do-it-yourselfer to the extent of my abilities, laundry equipment included. But I like to create a tally of all the money I save by doing things myself to help justify blowing money on more questionable stuff!
I didn't realize there was such a service available. Do you mind if I ask what that service costs?
I've always been a do-it-yourselfer to the extent of my abilities, laundry equipment included. But I like to create a tally of all the money I save by doing things myself to help justify blowing money on more questionable stuff!
Its from the Canadian Home Equipment Huebsch website. The market is quite different up here I think. The kind of people that buy Huebsch equipment usually are looking for light commercial grade machines.
I do wish that Alliance would focus on getting their equipment into the big box stores so they could compete with GE, LG, Samsung, Whirlpool and WCI. I had to buy my washer and dryer from a boutique appliance shop which also sells commercial equipment.
I do wish that Alliance would focus on getting their equipment into the big box stores so they could compete with GE, LG, Samsung, Whirlpool and WCI. I had to buy my washer and dryer from a boutique appliance shop which also sells commercial equipment.
I just learned the local mom/pop Whirlpool/LG dealer is now handling Speed Queen, too. I'll have to go check them out.
pierreandreply4
Well-known member
i know that around the 1970 speed queen applioance where ava
all i know is that around the 1970 speed queen appliance where sold in canada but i do not know what made them stop selling this popular brand because i am sure that alot of consumers would buy speed queen washer dryers in canadien stores today.
all i know is that around the 1970 speed queen appliance where sold in canada but i do not know what made them stop selling this popular brand because i am sure that alot of consumers would buy speed queen washer dryers in canadien stores today.
Cookietaster12
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2012
- Messages
- 39
My service plane was 250 at the time with sears. They are on the expensive side. Home Depot has a 5 year service plan for $120 and a 3 year for $69 with all the things included in my earlier post. The only thing is that you have to purchase the washer and dryer from them. THey wont sell you a service plan if you purchase from somewhere else.
I don't think it would be a good idea for Alliance SQ to try to appeal to "big Box stores"to do so--means the machines have to be built CHEAP to meet the BB store requirements for cheap prices.I would like to buy a SQ machine from a real appliance shop-problem is no one in Greenville has them-from what I was able to tell closest dealer for SQ was Charlotte,NC-nothing was said if there was a dealer in Raleigh.surprized about this.and what would be the shipping,delivory costs from either of those places to Greenville.Another reason to buy from the real store is better SERVICE-they can properly install the machine-show you really how to work it-and be available in case of problems.Can the big box store REALLY help you if the machine breaks or gives problems or questions how to use it?The BB store just gives you the machine builders phone or internet #,s nothing elese.
Tolivac, I disagree on one point...
The big box stores sell $2000 LG and Samsung washers here. I think Huebsch/SQ could compete, but they would have to sell it hard and provide for special cut-away machines showing their innards so people could see the quality.
I think the biggest issue is that the initial impression for the consumer is that Huesbch/SQ is selling BOL machines because the controls are so simple. That's the easy part everyone sees. Justifying the extra cost like including a porcelain covered steel outer tub, is a really hard sell because unfortunately, a lot of consumers don't care.
I do agree about the better service from a more boutique shop though, it is nicer to get service and support on a machine costing $2k.
The big box stores sell $2000 LG and Samsung washers here. I think Huebsch/SQ could compete, but they would have to sell it hard and provide for special cut-away machines showing their innards so people could see the quality.
I think the biggest issue is that the initial impression for the consumer is that Huesbch/SQ is selling BOL machines because the controls are so simple. That's the easy part everyone sees. Justifying the extra cost like including a porcelain covered steel outer tub, is a really hard sell because unfortunately, a lot of consumers don't care.
I do agree about the better service from a more boutique shop though, it is nicer to get service and support on a machine costing $2k.
I just can't picture a BB store buyer wanting to buy the SQ machine-The specialized appliance dealer can show and demenstrate the SQ machines features and benefits BETTER than the not so knowelegeable salesmen at a BB store.Yes-the SQ machine on the surface is simple-but the specialized appliance dealer can better explain the benefits of this to a prospect-and better demo the machine.It seems like most BB store customers are more impressed with the jukebox like controls on the Samsung FL machine than the more rugged and straightforward design of the SQ.The steel tank and simple mechanical timer on the SQ and its strong transmission-will outlast the Samsung machine-its delicate electronics can be wiped out by a strong thunderstorm-those common in my area.The SQ machine could just--keep on going!!Through experiance I feel a well designed electromechanical system is FAR better than a complex electronic one.The Electromechanical system is more long term durable.A BB store's salesman-who has little knowlege of the product-cannot show the customer properly these things-becuase that salesman worked in the home theater dept yesterday.Some things you cannot buy in a BB store-a super duty washer or other appliance is among them.along with high quality audio gear.
My parents and I went to a big box appliance wholesale store yesterday, and the salesperson had no clue as to what he was talking about! He said Samsung washers were really Miele units, made in Korea, so prices would be more affordable to consumers (like me)! We then headed to the SQ/Huebsch dealer, a true appliance shop with knowledgeable people running the place. The salesperson there showed us a SQ washer and a Samsung side-by-side, with the outer cabinets removed, the real differences between the units. I don't think a big box store would do anything like that.
When SQ First Re-Entered The Domestic Market
We spoke with a great guy at Alliance's HQ and he stated upfront the company wanted *NOTHING* to do with big box stores, even at the expense of distribution.
Big box stores all have taken pages from Walmart and by extension Sears in making serious demands upon suppliers. Yes, HD or Lowes will purchase several thousand washers and dryers, but they will demand them at *their* price, not the makers. Big Box stores may also insist on further discounts, advertising money, being able to send unsold or returned stock back for credit, and so forth.
Sears in it's day got away with such things as did (or does) Walmart because their purchasing power made them top dogs on the block.
We spoke with a great guy at Alliance's HQ and he stated upfront the company wanted *NOTHING* to do with big box stores, even at the expense of distribution.
Big box stores all have taken pages from Walmart and by extension Sears in making serious demands upon suppliers. Yes, HD or Lowes will purchase several thousand washers and dryers, but they will demand them at *their* price, not the makers. Big Box stores may also insist on further discounts, advertising money, being able to send unsold or returned stock back for credit, and so forth.
Sears in it's day got away with such things as did (or does) Walmart because their purchasing power made them top dogs on the block.
cehalstead
Well-known member
my local appliance dealer,
with whom I have been doing business for over 30 years, told me that they sold more SQ appliances than any other brand. They sell every brand except Frigidaire, and the salesman there told me that since Frigidaire had become such "junk", they won't even fool with it. Just imagine...more Speed Queen than all the other brands they sell, combined. Says something for the quality and reputation of the product. At one time, this dealer sold only Maytag. I think that tells the story right there........
with whom I have been doing business for over 30 years, told me that they sold more SQ appliances than any other brand. They sell every brand except Frigidaire, and the salesman there told me that since Frigidaire had become such "junk", they won't even fool with it. Just imagine...more Speed Queen than all the other brands they sell, combined. Says something for the quality and reputation of the product. At one time, this dealer sold only Maytag. I think that tells the story right there........
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