Zote soap!
- Thread starter gpevas
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Should caution
the use of TSP (trisodium phosphate) as it is not the same as STPP (sodium tripolyphoshate)
TSP is precipitating, along with washing soda, baking soda, Borax, where as STPP is not.
TSP may be too hash on fabric.
As mentioned above, STPP rinses away easer, and is more effective for this purpose.
Again, water softening becomes more of an issue here, because the subject on hand is about using Zote Soap!
the use of TSP (trisodium phosphate) as it is not the same as STPP (sodium tripolyphoshate)
TSP is precipitating, along with washing soda, baking soda, Borax, where as STPP is not.
TSP may be too hash on fabric.
As mentioned above, STPP rinses away easer, and is more effective for this purpose.
Again, water softening becomes more of an issue here, because the subject on hand is about using Zote Soap!
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I must correct something.....
When I did mention Rain Drops water softener ingredients it was by assumption, luckily I checked, this was because over here every water softener, from the cheapest 1euros store brand to the leading 6 euros or more Calgon, all are made out of zeolites and policarboxilates.....
Apparently, Rain Drops not.....
It is Soda along with sodium citrate, which makes of it "bucks thrown in the toilet", what you pay is mostly washing soda...worth a dollar or less...
Sorry for wrong information!
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=3005100
en.wikipedia.org
When I did mention Rain Drops water softener ingredients it was by assumption, luckily I checked, this was because over here every water softener, from the cheapest 1euros store brand to the leading 6 euros or more Calgon, all are made out of zeolites and policarboxilates.....
Apparently, Rain Drops not.....
It is Soda along with sodium citrate, which makes of it "bucks thrown in the toilet", what you pay is mostly washing soda...worth a dollar or less...
Sorry for wrong information!
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=3005100
Calgon - Wikipedia
Most If Not All Non-Precipitating Packaged Water Softeners
Sold in the USA which at one time were laden with phosphates are now mixtures of various salts, washing soda, etc... The phosphates have been removed. Rain Drops, Calgon, Amway's Smashing White, etc... all have either changed or vanished from shop shelves. Now there might be something out there one has not heard of so if anyone knows please speak up.
At least here in the States one can still purchase phosphates from places such as the Chemistry Store and other sources. However manufactures of laundry and dishwashing products along with most everything else for household cleaning have removed the stuff.
Sold in the USA which at one time were laden with phosphates are now mixtures of various salts, washing soda, etc... The phosphates have been removed. Rain Drops, Calgon, Amway's Smashing White, etc... all have either changed or vanished from shop shelves. Now there might be something out there one has not heard of so if anyone knows please speak up.
At least here in the States one can still purchase phosphates from places such as the Chemistry Store and other sources. However manufactures of laundry and dishwashing products along with most everything else for household cleaning have removed the stuff.
gpevas
Well-known member
Zote soap and stpp
I want to THANK all who answered my question regarding STPP I will buy some and give it a try. I live in Parma Height, Ohio and we get our water from Lake Erie and it is hard not sure how hard but it is. I still like my Speed Queen wringer because I can use soap in it,to get my sheets and pillow cases clean. My automatic New Kenmore Elite is fine but it can't be used with soap. I still think an old fashioned agitator type washer is BEST!!!! I am new to this site and am amazed at all the help I get THANKS again to all of you.......Gary.....
I want to THANK all who answered my question regarding STPP I will buy some and give it a try. I live in Parma Height, Ohio and we get our water from Lake Erie and it is hard not sure how hard but it is. I still like my Speed Queen wringer because I can use soap in it,to get my sheets and pillow cases clean. My automatic New Kenmore Elite is fine but it can't be used with soap. I still think an old fashioned agitator type washer is BEST!!!! I am new to this site and am amazed at all the help I get THANKS again to all of you.......Gary.....
My
Zote powder and bar soap arrived yesterday. I will be trying the flakes on washday Monday next week. I also ordered 5# of the STPP. Anyone have any ideas how much STPP I should use for the first load in the wringer? And, do I add more for each subsequent load I use the water for? And, how much would you suggest I put in the rinse water? I rinse in the wringer also. Thanks for any help.
Jim
Zote powder and bar soap arrived yesterday. I will be trying the flakes on washday Monday next week. I also ordered 5# of the STPP. Anyone have any ideas how much STPP I should use for the first load in the wringer? And, do I add more for each subsequent load I use the water for? And, how much would you suggest I put in the rinse water? I rinse in the wringer also. Thanks for any help.
Jim
Hi Jim
Do you know how many gallon your wringer hold? And can you find out from your water Dept how many grains water hardness is the average got your area?
Someone will be able to give you a estimated dosage if you can get that info.
Do you know how many gallon your wringer hold? And can you find out from your water Dept how many grains water hardness is the average got your area?
Someone will be able to give you a estimated dosage if you can get that info.
Easy Method For Using Phosphates In Washing Machines
Start with 1/2 cup of STPP and pour into washing machine as it fills. Allow to agitate in order to dissolve. Measure out about one cup of soap product (about two teaspoons per gallon of water used in your machine), then begin adding to washer about 1/4 of a cup at a time. You want to reach a rich lively and lasting froth layer about 2"-3" deep. Once you get to that point make a note of how much soap was used and there is your new benchmark.
For wringer machines you may have to add more soap for subsequent loads and or anytime you notice froth layer declining below the aforementioned levels.
Note, unless you are using granulated soap product or perhaps flakes it may take time for chips or other forms to fully dissolve. You can speed this along by dissolving your measured amounts of soap in boiling water then pouring into washing machine.
Even with STPP/phosphates you may not get as many "repeat" uses of wash water for laundry as with modern detergents. It is therefore always best to discard wash water and start fresh when scum starts to form and or keeping a lively layer of froth becomes difficult.
Start with 1/2 cup of STPP and pour into washing machine as it fills. Allow to agitate in order to dissolve. Measure out about one cup of soap product (about two teaspoons per gallon of water used in your machine), then begin adding to washer about 1/4 of a cup at a time. You want to reach a rich lively and lasting froth layer about 2"-3" deep. Once you get to that point make a note of how much soap was used and there is your new benchmark.
For wringer machines you may have to add more soap for subsequent loads and or anytime you notice froth layer declining below the aforementioned levels.
Note, unless you are using granulated soap product or perhaps flakes it may take time for chips or other forms to fully dissolve. You can speed this along by dissolving your measured amounts of soap in boiling water then pouring into washing machine.
Even with STPP/phosphates you may not get as many "repeat" uses of wash water for laundry as with modern detergents. It is therefore always best to discard wash water and start fresh when scum starts to form and or keeping a lively layer of froth becomes difficult.
mrb627
Well-known member
STPP Dosage
About how many 1/2c doses does one get out of a 5lb. container?
What is the cost per use?
Malcolm
About how many 1/2c doses does one get out of a 5lb. container?
What is the cost per use?
Malcolm
Catfish Bait?
Looks like Zote is also good for catching catfish.
Looks like Zote is also good for catching catfish.
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I think 1/2 cup would be way too much for a wringer. How much does one put in regular top load washer? You can do soap like my great grandmother did with her homemade lye soap. She had part of an old \dishtowel that she put the fist sized bar of lye soap in and ties off and dropped it in her washer let it wash awhile with it and when got the soapy layer she would put things in to wash she left it in for the entire wash.
She had a rain barrel outside that she would carry in and get boiling hot on stove pour in the washer and then add cooler water to temper it down some. She had a 1920s round tub Maytag.
She had a rain barrel outside that she would carry in and get boiling hot on stove pour in the washer and then add cooler water to temper it down some. She had a 1920s round tub Maytag.
I think 1/2 cup would be way too much for a wringer
That is the amount listed on my vintage (silver foil wrapped) boxes of Calgon water softener. This product would have been around when wringer washing machines along with automatics were in use.
One half cup is not a great amount of Calgon when you consider the addition of phosphates lessened the amount of soap or detergent required. Mind you the half cup was an average dosage given to deal with water hardness across the United States. If one lived in a soft water area you probably could use less. The other standard advice given for using phosphates was to add the amount that gave "slippery" feeling water which remained so.
The other thing to remember is packaged water softeners not only must cope with whatever minerals are in the water, but those that come off soiled laundry as well. Ideally you are going to want some reserves to cope with that lot rather than say having to add more product (or soap/detergent) during the wash cycle.
Your grandmother's method would have horrified (no offence meant) home economists of the period. In essence using soap both to clean and soften water.
Soap on its own will soften water by binding to minerals. However besides being an expensive use of soap it also large amounts are needed both to sequester hard water minerals but to replace the cleaning power lost by soap tied up in that process. The addition of *any* sort of water softener including TSP was preferable to using soap alone to both soften water and for cleaning. [this post was last edited: 7/31/2014-14:09]
That is the amount listed on my vintage (silver foil wrapped) boxes of Calgon water softener. This product would have been around when wringer washing machines along with automatics were in use.
One half cup is not a great amount of Calgon when you consider the addition of phosphates lessened the amount of soap or detergent required. Mind you the half cup was an average dosage given to deal with water hardness across the United States. If one lived in a soft water area you probably could use less. The other standard advice given for using phosphates was to add the amount that gave "slippery" feeling water which remained so.
The other thing to remember is packaged water softeners not only must cope with whatever minerals are in the water, but those that come off soiled laundry as well. Ideally you are going to want some reserves to cope with that lot rather than say having to add more product (or soap/detergent) during the wash cycle.
Your grandmother's method would have horrified (no offence meant) home economists of the period. In essence using soap both to clean and soften water.
Soap on its own will soften water by binding to minerals. However besides being an expensive use of soap it also large amounts are needed both to sequester hard water minerals but to replace the cleaning power lost by soap tied up in that process. The addition of *any* sort of water softener including TSP was preferable to using soap alone to both soften water and for cleaning. [this post was last edited: 7/31/2014-14:09]
Another Thing
Using too much soap is just as bad as using too little. This is why it is far better to use softened water (package product or mechanical) and less soap than rely totally upon it to soften water and provide cleaning power.
Soap does not totally rinse out of fabrics. The more of it you use the more through rinses must be to get out as much residue as possible.
Using too much soap is just as bad as using too little. This is why it is far better to use softened water (package product or mechanical) and less soap than rely totally upon it to soften water and provide cleaning power.
Soap does not totally rinse out of fabrics. The more of it you use the more through rinses must be to get out as much residue as possible.
Think
It's important to point out that not all soaps are created equal.
Much of the sudsing has to do with not only the quality of the water, but how the soap in question was formulated.
"Laundry soaps" created years ago (when soap was all there was) were more often than not, purified, or sometimes referred to as "proven"
This was a process that involved re precipitating the soap with a salt solution. This was done prior to forming into bars or processing into flakes or granules. This process enhanced the soaps ability to clean, create suds more effectively, and also created a soap that was easier to rinse, and "reduced" residue.
You'd be hard-pressed to find a soap bar that is processed this way now. Even one that is intended for laundry use!
I doubt that Zote is a purified soap.
Another thing that creates a higher level of sudsing would be the use of coconut oil in the formulation. Most of the fat used for these types of soap is beef fat, as it is cheap and accessible. Now there's nothing really wrong with that, as beef fat (tallow) helps to make a stable lather, but there won't be excess sudsing with this fat alone. Coconut oil raises the bar
(no pun intended) for this, along with a couple of additives.
I guess the point I'm making here is that achieving, and maintaining a level of suds, may be much more difficult now with these bars, then it would have been years ago with the purified ones This dose not mean that it's not cleaning just because there isn't suds bellowing out of the machine.
Soap formulas can vary in their performance just as much as detergents formulas can.
We just don't know because generally no one is using Soap
It's hard enough to know what P&G is doing, and changing with their detergent line up !
It's important to point out that not all soaps are created equal.
Much of the sudsing has to do with not only the quality of the water, but how the soap in question was formulated.
"Laundry soaps" created years ago (when soap was all there was) were more often than not, purified, or sometimes referred to as "proven"
This was a process that involved re precipitating the soap with a salt solution. This was done prior to forming into bars or processing into flakes or granules. This process enhanced the soaps ability to clean, create suds more effectively, and also created a soap that was easier to rinse, and "reduced" residue.
You'd be hard-pressed to find a soap bar that is processed this way now. Even one that is intended for laundry use!
I doubt that Zote is a purified soap.
Another thing that creates a higher level of sudsing would be the use of coconut oil in the formulation. Most of the fat used for these types of soap is beef fat, as it is cheap and accessible. Now there's nothing really wrong with that, as beef fat (tallow) helps to make a stable lather, but there won't be excess sudsing with this fat alone. Coconut oil raises the bar
(no pun intended) for this, along with a couple of additives.
I guess the point I'm making here is that achieving, and maintaining a level of suds, may be much more difficult now with these bars, then it would have been years ago with the purified ones This dose not mean that it's not cleaning just because there isn't suds bellowing out of the machine.
Soap formulas can vary in their performance just as much as detergents formulas can.
We just don't know because generally no one is using Soap
It's hard enough to know what P&G is doing, and changing with their detergent line up !
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Stan, I totally share what you say...it's all very correct.
Very true, I used some beef and pork tallow homemade (my friends from turin killed their pig and bull) soap, they also included bones in the one for personal use adding a scouring power thanks to the bones, it produced virtually no foam...but water was indeed soapy and cleaned very well.
Sudsing of laundry soaps:
Not having tried the Zote flakes cannot tell much, but as I could see with the Jelly soaps Like Oro or Alba and marseille flakes, products meant for machine use, sold down here in Italy, I could see them do now produce slightly less foam of what once they used to, Alba and Alga jelly soap is made out totally of coconut oil while others a mixture of palm, olive and coconut, but especially the Alba and while being made with all coconut, produces less foam than before and all the others, and wonder how it's possible...
As said the other flakes and jelly soaps for washers now sold, also seems to foam slightly less of the average grated bar, both ones I make at home and ones I buy, also of course there are bars more pure and less pure as you say, I found out some are made with a quicker processing than others (quicker as they somnehow reduce aging time by perhaps using less alakali and so resulting in reduced/partial saponification of fats so aging and purity of soap, and they finally speed up things by forced air drying, or something similar...this is what I get/imagine by observing the difference of the cheapers among indutrial soaps), some suds up more than others...of course...others you can actually still feel the partial saponification and fat presence in them and does not foam up as well.
So perhaps these machines products are less purified than bars? I cannot see that actually. So I wonder what they changed in the formula/recipe to make them less foamning..since to me they does not appear less pure, or bad made, or partially saponified....just less foaming.
Infact I could not see very big diferences in terms of reduced cleaning also, even though I find better performers the High sudsing grated bars and my own soaps I make.
Being Zote flakes a product meant for washer use, I now wonder if there is a change for the flakes vs their soap bars...like it happens for the ones I mentioned....even though I really don't know what changes actually.
[this post was last edited: 8/2/2014-12:18]
Very true, I used some beef and pork tallow homemade (my friends from turin killed their pig and bull) soap, they also included bones in the one for personal use adding a scouring power thanks to the bones, it produced virtually no foam...but water was indeed soapy and cleaned very well.
Sudsing of laundry soaps:
Not having tried the Zote flakes cannot tell much, but as I could see with the Jelly soaps Like Oro or Alba and marseille flakes, products meant for machine use, sold down here in Italy, I could see them do now produce slightly less foam of what once they used to, Alba and Alga jelly soap is made out totally of coconut oil while others a mixture of palm, olive and coconut, but especially the Alba and while being made with all coconut, produces less foam than before and all the others, and wonder how it's possible...
As said the other flakes and jelly soaps for washers now sold, also seems to foam slightly less of the average grated bar, both ones I make at home and ones I buy, also of course there are bars more pure and less pure as you say, I found out some are made with a quicker processing than others (quicker as they somnehow reduce aging time by perhaps using less alakali and so resulting in reduced/partial saponification of fats so aging and purity of soap, and they finally speed up things by forced air drying, or something similar...this is what I get/imagine by observing the difference of the cheapers among indutrial soaps), some suds up more than others...of course...others you can actually still feel the partial saponification and fat presence in them and does not foam up as well.
So perhaps these machines products are less purified than bars? I cannot see that actually. So I wonder what they changed in the formula/recipe to make them less foamning..since to me they does not appear less pure, or bad made, or partially saponified....just less foaming.
Infact I could not see very big diferences in terms of reduced cleaning also, even though I find better performers the High sudsing grated bars and my own soaps I make.
Being Zote flakes a product meant for washer use, I now wonder if there is a change for the flakes vs their soap bars...like it happens for the ones I mentioned....even though I really don't know what changes actually.
[this post was last edited: 8/2/2014-12:18]
I used ZOTE soap flakes in my latest video--since there was so much talk about it. Check it out to see suds levels, etc. I used very hot water, so they melted instantly. I get "ring around the tub" with them though, so I won't be using them very often.
Gary,
I've been grating my own soap - generally Ivory bars - for some years now, although I haven't used it in my front loader for some time now. I like the effect, and also softened the water with STPP, but more like an ounce of STPP per load, not the four ounces that Laundress recommends for a top loader wringer.
I have also grated Zote, and found it cleans about the same as the Ivory. However in both cases hot water is essential, because the grating produced somewhat larger chunks of soap than a flake product. So I'm happy to see that Zote is now available in pre-flaked form. I used your link and found that all my local Walmarts carry the grated Zote.
In moderation the grated soaps do not cause undue sudsing in the front loader - but proper dosing is essential to avoid a foam-over. It's a little tricky in the Neptune, with its solid door, but generally I add the lowest amount I think is required and then add more to bring the suds ups to a low level as needed. I also add the soap flakes to the drum with the clothes, rather than via the detergent dispenser, again because of potential issues with incomplete dissolving in the detergent chute.
If you're on Lake Erie you might want to think twice about using a lot of STPP in your wash. The news lately has been about toxic algae blooms that shut down the Toledo water system. There may be alternatives, such as Zeolites, that are non-precipitating and may form the major component of some water softeners like White King or Calgon. Zeolites do not contribute to algae blooms. Zeolites do not clean as well as STPP, but they are probably comparable in terms of their water softening ability.
I've been grating my own soap - generally Ivory bars - for some years now, although I haven't used it in my front loader for some time now. I like the effect, and also softened the water with STPP, but more like an ounce of STPP per load, not the four ounces that Laundress recommends for a top loader wringer.
I have also grated Zote, and found it cleans about the same as the Ivory. However in both cases hot water is essential, because the grating produced somewhat larger chunks of soap than a flake product. So I'm happy to see that Zote is now available in pre-flaked form. I used your link and found that all my local Walmarts carry the grated Zote.
In moderation the grated soaps do not cause undue sudsing in the front loader - but proper dosing is essential to avoid a foam-over. It's a little tricky in the Neptune, with its solid door, but generally I add the lowest amount I think is required and then add more to bring the suds ups to a low level as needed. I also add the soap flakes to the drum with the clothes, rather than via the detergent dispenser, again because of potential issues with incomplete dissolving in the detergent chute.
If you're on Lake Erie you might want to think twice about using a lot of STPP in your wash. The news lately has been about toxic algae blooms that shut down the Toledo water system. There may be alternatives, such as Zeolites, that are non-precipitating and may form the major component of some water softeners like White King or Calgon. Zeolites do not contribute to algae blooms. Zeolites do not clean as well as STPP, but they are probably comparable in terms of their water softening ability.
Back in the dark ages, in my organic chemistry class, we actually made soap in the lab. At the time I didn't have the laundry bug, so I was a bit unimpressed, but I do remember the final step was rinsing the soap on top of a filter and winding up with a little cake of white soap at the end.
As I recall, the rinsing does two things: it removes excess sodium hydroxide and residual glycerol. Unrinsed handmade soap may have lye in it, as well as glycerol. The lye will help with washing but will be harsh on fabrics (and skin). The glycerol is nice to skin. Take your pick. Proper dosing of lye to fat in the soap making process may reduce the amount to residual lye in the final, unrinsed product.
As I recall, the rinsing does two things: it removes excess sodium hydroxide and residual glycerol. Unrinsed handmade soap may have lye in it, as well as glycerol. The lye will help with washing but will be harsh on fabrics (and skin). The glycerol is nice to skin. Take your pick. Proper dosing of lye to fat in the soap making process may reduce the amount to residual lye in the final, unrinsed product.
It dose. (Residual lye)
Each fat used, requires a specific amount of NaOH for complete saponification, coconut oil requiring more, than say oil olive oil.
If the measurements of fat (by weight) are accurate, and the correct amount of NaOH or KOH (by weight) are used
(or slightly a bit more) there shouldn't be any fat left upon completion.
If the purification process is used at the end of processing, then the impurities, glycerin, and of course that extra "spent" lye are removed.
If this is done, then the residue, or "tub ring" is reduced. The choice of fats are a huge contributing factor as well.
Additives such as solvents, STPP, Borax, carbolic acid, ect, can be incorporated into the soap, to improve performance further.
I'm speaking specifically about "laundry soap" formulations.
While Ivory bar Soap is in fact still soap, and not a syndet, it is not intended to be used as a laundry soap, as there is a percentage of fat, and glycerin left behind (not enough IMHO) as there should be since it's intended use is to bathe with.
Each fat used, requires a specific amount of NaOH for complete saponification, coconut oil requiring more, than say oil olive oil.
If the measurements of fat (by weight) are accurate, and the correct amount of NaOH or KOH (by weight) are used
(or slightly a bit more) there shouldn't be any fat left upon completion.
If the purification process is used at the end of processing, then the impurities, glycerin, and of course that extra "spent" lye are removed.
If this is done, then the residue, or "tub ring" is reduced. The choice of fats are a huge contributing factor as well.
Additives such as solvents, STPP, Borax, carbolic acid, ect, can be incorporated into the soap, to improve performance further.
I'm speaking specifically about "laundry soap" formulations.
While Ivory bar Soap is in fact still soap, and not a syndet, it is not intended to be used as a laundry soap, as there is a percentage of fat, and glycerin left behind (not enough IMHO) as there should be since it's intended use is to bathe with.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Very true! That's why we have Bath soap and laundry soap.....
While *real* marseille made with Olive Oil is actually a Multipurpose soap, so due to it's PH and formula is okay to be used on skin, you wouldn't use others soaps types meant for cleaning on your skin, well....you would if you were short of else, but they would leave your skin very dry, not to mention if you have a delicate one.
Soaps for personal cleaning, are also often laden with ingredients such as butters, creams and other aminoacidic fats for moisturizing other than having left the Glycerin....here is why they gives residues if used in laundry, of course....
They shouldn't be used for this purpose....
While *real* marseille made with Olive Oil is actually a Multipurpose soap, so due to it's PH and formula is okay to be used on skin, you wouldn't use others soaps types meant for cleaning on your skin, well....you would if you were short of else, but they would leave your skin very dry, not to mention if you have a delicate one.
Soaps for personal cleaning, are also often laden with ingredients such as butters, creams and other aminoacidic fats for moisturizing other than having left the Glycerin....here is why they gives residues if used in laundry, of course....
They shouldn't be used for this purpose....
