Why Has Whirlpool Never Sold a BOL Power Clean Module?

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In addition to Chetlaham's post #22, and Vacerator's post #25, I got to thinking.... (a dangerous thing, mind you!)

The global complacency, and as mentioned, the culture, surely isn't what it used to be.
My views are that a large part of society, have adopted that "Dumbing Down" syndrome, and "Herd Mentality". - Follow the leader, do like they do.
A substantial part of this is due to advertizing, the economy, and governmental crap like idiotic mandates, instilling fear, and more.
Lord knows it seems everyone's glued to a cellphone these days, and lives by "apps".
The funny thing is, the 'net, and technology is claimed to bring people together, when in my opinion it's actually seperated people.
Humorous, funny, but yet sad, I've seen those photos of a bunch of young people sitting around the lunchroom table, each one staring at their tiny glowing screens and ignoring their immediate company.

I mentioned idiotic mandates - those include the recent ones we've all heard about, and I'm sure there's likely a thread topic on the dishwasher mandates, hot water heaters, air conditioners, and other appliances that stress people's nerves, worrying about having to replace them.
God only knows what's next on the agenda to fuss about.
 
Energy efficiency mandates have only resulted in more energy being used with more landfill waste. Dishwasher efficiency peaked in the early 2000s with the electronic Power Cleans and then it went down hill from there as a whole.



Even an absolute BOL Power Clean with a mediocre 11 gallon water cycle would out-clean anything sold today to the point dishware energy and water use would plummet by 90%.

(the 30 minute wash is heated with at least 850 watts)


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Chetlaham said:
Modern dishwashers use more water than older ones, like 20 times more. Thats not progress. Neither are all the premature failures.
Click to expand...
How do they use more water? The only way I can figure that is if the water isn't hot enough in the pre wash, and it purges and fills until the thermister senses it is hot enough. Other wise it is much less. Wash times are longer regardless. The older single motor wash/drain pumps needed more water to make the same pressure for the wash arms because the sumps and impellers were larger. The DM Roto racks had to move the top spinning racks. The member from California who said higher up in the thread that college educated ones advising the bureucrats are stupid is ignorant. If he knows so much, then he should go do it and lobby for old technology.
 
vacerator said:
How do they use more water? The only way I can figure that is if the water isn't hot enough in the pre wash, and it purges and fills until the thermister senses it is hot enough. Other wise it is much less. Wash times are longer regardless. The older single motor wash/drain pumps needed more water to make the same pressure for the wash arms because the sumps and impellers were larger. The DM Roto racks had to move the top spinning racks. The member from California who said higher up in the thread that college educated ones advising the bureucrats are stupid is ignorant. If he knows so much, then he should go do it and lobby for old technology.
Click to expand...



User pre-rinsing. Most Americans with a tall tub pre-rinse in various degrees. With the amount of water used pre-rinsing and pre-treating, it would make more sense to just add soap to a sponge spending a few extra seconds washing everything by hand.

With a Power Clean Filter Module water never touches anything beforehand. Tilt, scrape, load, accumulate and then run a cycle. Dishware, silverware, bakeware, pots, pans and other items can be loaded as is and can accumulate as is over a day or two. In just one cycle both dishes and the machine come out spotless, clean, film free and sanitized. No odors, no smells, no clogged holes, no afresh, no manual clean filters, no food bits at the bottom, no residue. Nothing left behind other than immuculate kitchenware.

Many gallons of water are saved along with the energy used to heat with a load-as-is dishwasher.
 
Well, my aunts used to say, except the one with 7 kids, there was no point to a dishwasher because you needed double dishes and flatware. We had one for the 7 of us because my dad bought them from Sears customers who had remodeled or upgraded.
 
Chetlaham said:
User pre-rinsing. Most Americans with a tall tub pre-rinse in various degrees. With the amount of water used pre-rinsing and pre-treating, it would make more sense to just add soap to a sponge spending a few extra seconds washing everything by hand.

With a Power Clean Filter Module water never touches anything beforehand. Tilt, scrape, load, accumulate and then run a cycle. Dishware, silverware, bakeware, pots, pans and other items can be loaded as is and can accumulate as is over a day or two. In just one cycle both dishes and the machine come out spotless, clean, film free and sanitized. No odors, no smells, no clogged holes, no afresh, no manual clean filters, no food bits at the bottom, no residue. Nothing left behind other than immuculate kitchenware.

Many gallons of water are saved along with the energy used to heat with a load-as-is dishwasher.
Click to expand...

We’ve had this discussion before, but you don’t need to pre rinse with modern dishwashers, at least here in Europe. Nobody I know does this.
 
lavamat_jon said:
Do you have quantifiable evidence, or is your statement speculative?

Even our cheap dishwashers here will perform well without pre rinsing, and I find it difficult to believe that American dishwashers can’t do this.
Click to expand...

Based on what I've seen in person, heard in person, and all the internet talk of poor cleaning and stinky filters over the last 20 years.

I literally had a friend who went tall tub and the spray arm holes started clogging. People at Sears in the early 2010s complaining how their new tall tubs couldn't clean.

YouTube videos of people cleaning gunky filters.


The only reason you hear less about it is because people just alter their loading habits (pre-rinse) until the problems are no longer noticeable. Which for many isn't that big a change because they've always been pre-rinsing due to the fact so many older dishwashers lacked good water filtration.
 
There must be some pretty poorly designed dishwashers in the States if that is indeed the case. Of course it’s always pertinent to take any online reviews/rants with a pinch of salt, as more often than not it’s due to incorrect use - and also bear in mind the phenomena that people don’t generally go online to tell everybody about their positive or neutral experiences where things are just working as it should.

I’ve cleaned the filter maybe two or three times on our current dishwasher in the year or so we’ve had it and the most that’s been on there is a stray cocktail stick. No gunk, just a quick rinse under the tap and that’s good for another however many cycles it is before the clean filter reminder comes back on (think it may be every 100 cycles).

There’s never really been a need to pre rinse with our dishwashers here, even with the older ones that used 15-20l of water per cycle. I don’t know anybody who does.

FWIW I’ve just unloaded two days worth of dishes from the load I did earlier, everything sparkling clean and it’s only used 10 litres of water, with no pre rinsing required 😊.
 
lavamat_jon said:
There must be some pretty poorly designed dishwashers in the States if that is indeed the case. Of course it’s always pertinent to take any online reviews/rants with a pinch of salt, as more often than not it’s due to incorrect use - and also bear in mind the phenomena that people don’t generally go online to tell everybody about their positive or neutral experiences where things are just working as it should.

I’ve cleaned the filter maybe two or three times on our current dishwasher in the year or so we’ve had it and the most that’s been on there is a stray cocktail stick. No gunk, just a quick rinse under the tap and that’s good for another however many cycles it is before the clean filter reminder comes back on (think it may be every 100 cycles).

There’s never really been a need to pre rinse with our dishwashers here, even with the older ones that used 15-20l of water per cycle. I don’t know anybody who does.

FWIW I’ve just unloaded two days worth of dishes from the load I did earlier, everything sparkling clean and it’s only used 10 litres of water, with no pre rinsing required 😊.
Click to expand...


Some of it is misuse, as can happen even with the best makes.

However a manual clean filter can not handle the amount of particles, food soil and food bits the way a power clean module can. A Power Clean Module is truly self cleaning being able to shred, macerate, hold and flush large amounts of food soil.

In the early 2000s Power Clean commercials would place an entire frosted cake in the dishwasher and it would be gone end of cycle. I would really like to try that with a EU dishwasher.
 
lavamat_jon said:
Do you have quantifiable evidence, or is your statement speculative?

Even our cheap dishwashers here will perform well without pre rinsing, and I find it difficult to believe that American dishwashers can’t do this.
Click to expand...
At times, I load my gourmet pots, trays, and frying pans, and the "stuck on" food from cooking/baking is difficult to loosen.
Surely no dishwasher's got enough of water pressure to remove that grime.
Maybe a garden "pressure washer" would do something.
 
Chetlaham said:
User pre-rinsing. Most Americans with a tall tub pre-rinse in various degrees. With the amount of water used pre-rinsing and pre-treating, it would make more sense to just add soap to a sponge spending a few extra seconds washing everything by hand.

With a Power Clean Filter Module water never touches anything beforehand. Tilt, scrape, load, accumulate and then run a cycle. Dishware, silverware, bakeware, pots, pans and other items can be loaded as is and can accumulate as is over a day or two. In just one cycle both dishes and the machine come out spotless, clean, film free and sanitized. No odors, no smells, no clogged holes, no afresh, no manual clean filters, no food bits at the bottom, no residue. Nothing left behind other than immuculate kitchenware.

Many gallons of water are saved along with the energy used to heat with a load-as-is dishwasher.
Click to expand...
But but but!
All my older relatives with Powecleans STILL pre rinsed all their dishes.

So. Let’s say pre rinsing uses 20 gallons of water. And a PC normal wash uses around 6.5gal.
A modern dishwasher uses between 3-4 gallons a wash.
(These are ballpark numbers, don’t come at me bro)

Vintage + PreRinse = 26.5gal

Modern + PreRinse = 24gal.

26.5 - 24 = 2.5 gallons in savings!

And don’t get me wrong, I love my PC KUD23.
But it doesn’t get my dishes quite as clean as the Global Wash KA I had at my old house. And the PC is smaller and harder to load cookware/bakeware.
 
lavamat_jon said:
There must be some pretty poorly designed dishwashers in the States if that is indeed the case. Of course it’s always pertinent to take any online reviews/rants with a pinch of salt, as more often than not it’s due to incorrect use - and also bear in mind the phenomena that people don’t generally go online to tell everybody about their positive or neutral experiences where things are just working as it should.

I’ve cleaned the filter maybe two or three times on our current dishwasher in the year or so we’ve had it and the most that’s been on there is a stray cocktail stick. No gunk, just a quick rinse under the tap and that’s good for another however many cycles it is before the clean filter reminder comes back on (think it may be every 100 cycles).

There’s never really been a need to pre rinse with our dishwashers here, even with the older ones that used 15-20l of water per cycle. I don’t know anybody who does.

FWIW I’ve just unloaded two days worth of dishes from the load I did earlier, everything sparkling clean and it’s only used 10 litres of water, with no pre rinsing required 😊.
Click to expand...
What Chet is FAILING to mention, is that the Americans who have clogged, stinky filters, are neglecting their machines. Americans are maintenance-averse. Or they might indeed have insanely poor or hard water.
In my experience, those with major filter issues are proponents of using the Quick cycle almost exclusively. Which means the final rinse never gets hot enough to emulsify built up gunk or sanitize the internals.
 
johnb300m said:
But but but!
All my older relatives with Powecleans STILL pre rinsed all their dishes.
Click to expand...


Yup! I don't dispute that. In fact that is one of the core issues. Your relatives first dishwasher wasn't a Power Clean. Once a person uses a dishwasher without fine filtration, maceration, particle carry away, hot water, a reasonably long main wash and good water distribution they quickly into the habit of pre-rinsing. GE, Westinghouse, D&M, low end Maytags, impellar machines, ect guilty in one or more of those offenses. That habit often remains even after switching to a Whirlpool Power Clean Filter Module- so the user never discoverers what their PC is capable of. Once the Power Clean is switched to a tall tub, they don't come realize their new dishwasher can't clean because the pre-rinsing continues before, during and after.

If every dishwasher ever made cleaned like a Whirlpool Power Clean Filter Module the complaints would have been so pronounced tall tubs would have never caught on. At least not without some very serious re-engineering.


So. Let’s say pre rinsing uses 20 gallons of water. And a PC normal wash uses around 6.5gal.
A modern dishwasher uses between 3-4 gallons a wash.
(These are ballpark numbers, don’t come at me bro)

Vintage + PreRinse = 26.5gal

Modern + PreRinse = 24gal.

26.5 - 24 = 2.5 gallons in savings!

And don’t get me wrong, I love my PC KUD23.
But it doesn’t get my dishes quite as clean as the Global Wash KA I had at my old house. And the PC is smaller and harder to load cookware/bakeware.
Click to expand...



Or, you can skip the pre-rinsing with a Power Clean and use only 4.8 to 11 gallons of water. Or use a tall tub with 4 gallons of water per machine cycle while still using at least 20 gallons of water in the sink. 6.9 gallons of water average (PreWash-Wash-Purge-Rinse) is much less than 24 gallons of water. At least 4 times the energy and water use with a tall tub. No thanks.
 
phillymatt53 said:
At times, I load my gourmet pots, trays, and frying pans, and the "stuck on" food from cooking/baking is difficult to loosen.
Surely no dishwasher's got enough of water pressure to remove that grime.
Maybe a garden "pressure washer" would do something.
Click to expand...

Right, which is why you also need time and detergent.

Which is why the Power Clean Gives you two generously sized detergent cups and two long heated 140*F temp assured washes with a rinse in between.

Modern tall tubs don't give you two long temp assured washes. In fact the single main wash often doesn't go above 120*F.
 
johnb300m said:
What Chet is FAILING to mention, is that the Americans who have clogged, stinky filters, are neglecting their machines. Americans are maintenance-averse. Or they might indeed have insanely poor or hard water.
Click to expand...


Why do I need to clean a dishwasher? If it can't clean itself, why should I trust it to clean my dishes? Americans deserve better.


In my experience, those with major filter issues are proponents of using the Quick cycle almost exclusively.
Click to expand...


Because 3+ hour cycles are needed to compensate for the lack of spray pressure and re-circulation volume in tall tubs. Nobody wants to wait that long. Whirlpool Power Cleans typically did the job in an hour or less on the normal cycle while providing superior results.


Which means the final rinse never gets hot enough to emulsify built up gunk or sanitize the internals.
Click to expand...


Which is why the Power Clean Filter Module forced a 140*F thermal hold in the final rinse of all cycles (except rinse and hold) with electromechanical models and nearly all cycles with electronic models.

A thermal hold was default and could not be over-ridden. Whirlpool knew.


Problems that were succesfully anhilated came back to haunt tall tubs. How is that progess? It is not.
 
Chetlaham said:
Some of it is misuse, as can happen even with the best makes.

However a manual clean filter can not handle the amount of particles, food soil and food bits the way a power clean module can. A Power Clean Module is truly self cleaning being able to shred, macerate, hold and flush large amounts of food soil.

In the early 2000s Power Clean commercials would place an entire frosted cake in the dishwasher and it would be gone end of cycle. I would really like to try that with a EU dishwasher.
Click to expand...
But manual clean filters can handle this. We’ve covered this before and you struggled to understand then. I’ve deciphered that perhaps it is more your opinion rather than fact that they don’t work, and that you prefer a non filter machine (which is fine), but facts prove otherwise that they do work. I actually wonder if you genuinely think we all have dirty dishes over here 😂.

You mention the cake test that Whirlpool did - in fact it is a test that Miele have performed throughout the years (there are videos on YouTube) which show the exact same test as you describe.

As I said in my previous post, when I check the filter on my machine when the machine occasionally prompts me there is never any food or gunk built up. The whole point of the filter is that food residues are held in the sump, kept out of the wash system, dissolved and flushed down the drain.

The Miele dishwasher I have will flush the filter with half a litre or so of water after the wash and before the final rinse to purge itself out, so that the filters are always clean.

Of course if I used the dishwasher like a waste disposal unit and purely used the quick cycles with inferior detergent then I have no doubt that I will have problems with gunky filters - but that would be my problem, not the dishwasher’s.

I get perfect results from my filter dishwasher everytime - whether I use the auto cycle (which yes is usually around 3 hours, but it’s really not a big deal especially if you’re putting it on in the evening or overnight). If I’m in a hurry I can get perfect results from the shorter Powerwash cycle which will do a 60°C wash and final rinse in around 1:20, using slightly more water to compensate for the shorter wash time. 😊
 
lavamat_jon said:
But manual clean filters can handle this. We’ve covered this before and you struggled to understand then. I’ve deciphered that perhaps it is more your opinion rather than fact that they don’t work, and that you prefer a non filter machine (which is fine), but facts prove otherwise that they do work. I actually wonder if you genuinely think we all have dirty dishes over here 😂.

You mention the cake test that Whirlpool did - in fact it is a test that Miele have performed throughout the years (there are videos on YouTube) which show the exact same test as you describe.

As I said in my previous post, when I check the filter on my machine when the machine occasionally prompts me there is never any food or gunk built up. The whole point of the filter is that food residues are held in the sump, kept out of the wash system, dissolved and flushed down the drain.

The Miele dishwasher I have will flush the filter with half a litre or so of water after the wash and before the final rinse to purge itself out, so that the filters are always clean.

Of course if I used the dishwasher like a waste disposal unit and purely used the quick cycles with inferior detergent then I have no doubt that I will have problems with gunky filters - but that would be my problem, not the dishwasher’s.

I get perfect results from my filter dishwasher everytime - whether I use the auto cycle (which yes is usually around 3 hours, but it’s really not a big deal especially if you’re putting it on in the evening or overnight). If I’m in a hurry I can get perfect results from the shorter Powerwash cycle which will do a 60°C wash and final rinse in around 1:20, using slightly more water to compensate for the shorter wash time. 😊
Click to expand...



People are still complaining in the US about dirty filters, stink, food bits at the bottom of grate and poor performance.


The Power Clean Module also does a post main wash purge if it does not default to a full rinse before the final rinse. The difference is the filter is trully self cleaning.


Consider one of the techs here (Combo52) who despite his love for modern machines, still defaults to vintage Whirlpool Power Cleans after trying out several modern tall tubs. Power Clean even outperformed his Hobart Kitchen-Aid.
 
The Poweclean is great, but it’s not the be-all end all.
I am not a rinser.
I will still periodically get little yibbles and little leaf, or onion specs on dishes.
Because the PC still macerates everything and recirculates it.
Only a fraction gets filtered.

Something my past filter cup dishwashers have never left. Because the filter screens never let those particles through.
You love Whirlpool so much, yet you fail to give credit to them for their awesome filter cup system. It will self clean itself to the point where WP only recommends inspecting the cup 1-3 times… a YEAR.

WP also tested their Global Wash system on video, with a a chocolate cake AND cheese pizza. It was all gone with just a little brown Schmutz on the screen.
 
I actually wonder if you genuinely think we all have dirty dishes over here 😂.
Click to expand...


You have the advantage of a cold fill and lots of time which gives detergent enzymes time to work. So yes, more is getting dissolved by detergents.

In the US most main wash fills are around 120*F and heated above that. The pre-wash fills already warmed the dishes and cavity of the machines so the 120* charge does not cool down much below that at the start of the main wash.

US machines work best when the soils are macerated instead of dissolved, held in a chamber, flushed down the drain and said chamber is rinsed out with clean water all automatically.
 
Chetlaham said:
US machines work best when the soils are macerated instead of dissolved, held in a chamber, flushed down the drain and said chamber is rinsed out with clean water all automatically.
Click to expand...
For anyone ELSE visiting here. This is incorrect.
Sorry about the lala land impenetrable brick wall here.
Food soil is not different across the ocean.
You’re just experiencing American stubbornness.
 

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