Miele washing machines and dryers use a four prong plug that is 120v/220v power. However Asko, Blomberg, Fagor and other washers use a three prong 220v plug, what gives. Can one be switched for the other?
120v/220v vs Straight "220v,208v etc.."
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arbilab
Well-known member
3 prong was the former US standard. 2 hots and neutral but no "ground". *I believe* the current US standard is 4 prong, neutral PLUS ground. Much as the former US 120V standard was hot and neutral but long since has been hot/neutral/ground when applicable to much more than lighting.
Does this make sense? I can't cite the code prescribing it.
Does this make sense? I can't cite the code prescribing it.
That sounds correct, Arbi. The four prong outlet/plug adds a separate ground.
A Miele can be wired to run on the three prong system. I know because I run three of them (two W1065's and one W1918) and they run just fine that way. Adding a ground wire will of course enhance safety (mainly, it protects the machine) but... three wires will work, functionally.
I won't comment on code. A licensed electrician would have to follow local code which likely requires a four wire grounded setup.
A Miele can be wired to run on the three prong system. I know because I run three of them (two W1065's and one W1918) and they run just fine that way. Adding a ground wire will of course enhance safety (mainly, it protects the machine) but... three wires will work, functionally.
I won't comment on code. A licensed electrician would have to follow local code which likely requires a four wire grounded setup.
I know because I run three of them
oh now he tells me! *LOL*
oh now he tells me! *LOL*
Isn`t neutral and ground shared in one wire in the older 3 prong 220 V plugs ?
3 prong on 220V
Neutral and ground shared the third(center) prong. Around 1998 or so is when the code switched to 4 prongs which gives you a separate ground and neutral. I'm not an electrician so I can't tell you what the advantage of the 4 prong set-up is.
Neutral and ground shared the third(center) prong. Around 1998 or so is when the code switched to 4 prongs which gives you a separate ground and neutral. I'm not an electrician so I can't tell you what the advantage of the 4 prong set-up is.
So where does the "120v" part come in then?
cleanlaundryluv
Member
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- Dec 12, 2012
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- 11
3rd wire...
Hi, I have a W1213, the last of the domestic 240V machines Miele made for N. America. It is wired 4-wire but, in my explorations, it is really 3-wired.
I'll explain: this machine only uses 240V so, because each hot is at 180 degrees from each other (in frequency), the Hots cancel each other out. No Neutral is needed, as with regular 120V things. So, in my case although there are 4 wires on the plug end, inside only the Hots and Ground are connected. They tie-off the Neutral inside, therefore it does nothing. And, because the previous owner cut the plug off mine, I've actually replaced the plug with a NEMA L6-30--meaning it's only 3-wire but the plug has to be twisted to remove (that's what the "L" stands for: locking) it from the socket. Just as safe (actually safer) than what Miele supplies and it's only 3-wire.
Now, with some appliances, there are both 120V and 240V components inside. In those cases, 120V items will use the Neutral pin and 240V items will use both Hots to complete their circuits.
My Miele is 100% safe without the Neutral (it still has a Ground for safety) as both Hots, being different poles at 180 deg. complete's their circuit.
Now, I don't know why Miele didn't just use the proper NEMA 3-wire connection in the first place, probably because the 14-30 (dryer plug) is more ubiquitous. But, dryers are meant for 30 Amps, and really you should use a 15 Amp breaker/fuse as Miele requests as their appliances only use that much. And if some fault were to happen and your washer tried to draw more than 15 Amps (because you left it as a dryer 30 Amp circuit, a fire could start in the machine as there are probably components only rated for 15 Amps. So, what I'm trying to say is that people would need an electrician in anyway, to change the breaker panel, so they should have used the proper plug.
I haven't seen the Asko plug, but if the are using current standards, then their 3-wire is most definitely using a Hot, Hot, Ground (not Neutral) configuration, which as I mentioned above is perfectly safe. And they are probably using the proper NEMA plug too. Those old 3-wire dryer/stove plugs were Hot, Hot, Neutral (no Ground), but their pin-out arrangement (the way the pins on the plug end of the cord) is different and incompatible with the modern 2-pole, 3-wire plugs of today.
You should look-up NEMA plugs on Wikipedia for a good explanation of how it all works. And, it's pretty easy to understand.
Hi, I have a W1213, the last of the domestic 240V machines Miele made for N. America. It is wired 4-wire but, in my explorations, it is really 3-wired.
I'll explain: this machine only uses 240V so, because each hot is at 180 degrees from each other (in frequency), the Hots cancel each other out. No Neutral is needed, as with regular 120V things. So, in my case although there are 4 wires on the plug end, inside only the Hots and Ground are connected. They tie-off the Neutral inside, therefore it does nothing. And, because the previous owner cut the plug off mine, I've actually replaced the plug with a NEMA L6-30--meaning it's only 3-wire but the plug has to be twisted to remove (that's what the "L" stands for: locking) it from the socket. Just as safe (actually safer) than what Miele supplies and it's only 3-wire.
Now, with some appliances, there are both 120V and 240V components inside. In those cases, 120V items will use the Neutral pin and 240V items will use both Hots to complete their circuits.
My Miele is 100% safe without the Neutral (it still has a Ground for safety) as both Hots, being different poles at 180 deg. complete's their circuit.
Now, I don't know why Miele didn't just use the proper NEMA 3-wire connection in the first place, probably because the 14-30 (dryer plug) is more ubiquitous. But, dryers are meant for 30 Amps, and really you should use a 15 Amp breaker/fuse as Miele requests as their appliances only use that much. And if some fault were to happen and your washer tried to draw more than 15 Amps (because you left it as a dryer 30 Amp circuit, a fire could start in the machine as there are probably components only rated for 15 Amps. So, what I'm trying to say is that people would need an electrician in anyway, to change the breaker panel, so they should have used the proper plug.
I haven't seen the Asko plug, but if the are using current standards, then their 3-wire is most definitely using a Hot, Hot, Ground (not Neutral) configuration, which as I mentioned above is perfectly safe. And they are probably using the proper NEMA plug too. Those old 3-wire dryer/stove plugs were Hot, Hot, Neutral (no Ground), but their pin-out arrangement (the way the pins on the plug end of the cord) is different and incompatible with the modern 2-pole, 3-wire plugs of today.
You should look-up NEMA plugs on Wikipedia for a good explanation of how it all works. And, it's pretty easy to understand.
arbilab
Well-known member
Present code specifies "ground" as not carrying current in normal operation. In an old US 240V dryer, "neutral/ground" carried tub/fan motor, timer, and lamp current as these were 120V components.
In almost all circumstances, the voltage present at 'neutral' cannot be dangerous when touched at the same time as "actual" ground. But codes try to anticipate the worst possible situation.
In almost all circumstances, the voltage present at 'neutral' cannot be dangerous when touched at the same time as "actual" ground. But codes try to anticipate the worst possible situation.
NEMA On Wikipedia
Thanks for the great explination!
Saw Wikipedia's entry awhile back when doing research on the subject and they too state that NEMA 14-30 plugs (IIRC that is the number) are for appliances that pull both 120v and 220v. My question then and now was how can appliances use both and isn't that a rather odd arrangement as compared to pure 208v,220v, etc power.
For instance years ago when Miele just discontinued the 19XX series and floor models could be had at discount,inquired from Miele could the units run on a "regular" 220v outlet instead of their "special" plug. Miele customer tech said "no" because "some internal parts require 120v power and others 220v).
To complicate matters further Miele washers of the 700 and 10XX series sold in the USA though states 120v/220v on the plate, could be wired to run on 120v only. So what happened to the components that required 220v power? The motor one knows runs on 120v because have tried to source one from various places in the UK and EU but they all are 208v/50hz.
There was an early Miele condenser dryer on eBay while back that was wired to run on 220v with a standard "American" three prong plug. Again the plate stated 120v/220v power required but obviously the thing ran.
Then there is this: some Miele appliances such as ironers were happy to run on either "American" or "EU" 208v-220v power.
Miele seems to be the only European washer maker that has this sort of electrical arrangent. Bosch, Asko, Blomberg, Fagor all use 220v power without the 120v bit. Mind you some want a 20amp or 30 amp circut but that is another matter.
Thanks for the great explination!
Saw Wikipedia's entry awhile back when doing research on the subject and they too state that NEMA 14-30 plugs (IIRC that is the number) are for appliances that pull both 120v and 220v. My question then and now was how can appliances use both and isn't that a rather odd arrangement as compared to pure 208v,220v, etc power.
For instance years ago when Miele just discontinued the 19XX series and floor models could be had at discount,inquired from Miele could the units run on a "regular" 220v outlet instead of their "special" plug. Miele customer tech said "no" because "some internal parts require 120v power and others 220v).
To complicate matters further Miele washers of the 700 and 10XX series sold in the USA though states 120v/220v on the plate, could be wired to run on 120v only. So what happened to the components that required 220v power? The motor one knows runs on 120v because have tried to source one from various places in the UK and EU but they all are 208v/50hz.
There was an early Miele condenser dryer on eBay while back that was wired to run on 220v with a standard "American" three prong plug. Again the plate stated 120v/220v power required but obviously the thing ran.
Then there is this: some Miele appliances such as ironers were happy to run on either "American" or "EU" 208v-220v power.
Miele seems to be the only European washer maker that has this sort of electrical arrangent. Bosch, Asko, Blomberg, Fagor all use 220v power without the 120v bit. Mind you some want a 20amp or 30 amp circut but that is another matter.
ronhic
Well-known member
some want a 20amp or 30 amp circut
I can't understand why when, for example:
- British plugs are 13amp fused
- Australian sockets are maximum 10amp.
In Australia, it is possible to get more powerful sockets for airconditioners etc - we have one here...but it is very unusual, this being the first time I've ever seen a socket greater than 15amp in a house.
Basically, Miele supply Australia with 240V appliances that draw a maximum of 10amp or less....
I can't understand why when, for example:
- British plugs are 13amp fused
- Australian sockets are maximum 10amp.
In Australia, it is possible to get more powerful sockets for airconditioners etc - we have one here...but it is very unusual, this being the first time I've ever seen a socket greater than 15amp in a house.
Basically, Miele supply Australia with 240V appliances that draw a maximum of 10amp or less....
Blomberg washer sold in USA. 220v at 30 amps
http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/aj...utm_medium=adwords&utm_campaign=pla&utm_term={keyword}&gclid=CN2MlJ2KobQCFdKd4Aod1QkAuQ
http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/aj...utm_medium=adwords&utm_campaign=pla&utm_term={keyword}&gclid=CN2MlJ2KobQCFdKd4Aod1QkAuQ
ronhic
Well-known member
Oh, I'm not doubting what is supplied to the US market - I'm questioning why the great variation in the first instance within that market.
Here, the domestic standard is 240V/10amp...
Major items that need installing, such as heating systems or ducted airconditioning or very large split systems may need more amps than 240V/10amp. But then, they're not the sort of thing you just 'replace'.
However, the power requirement was one of several reasons that Fisher and Paykels top-loading electric dryer flopped here - insufficient space in laundrys not used to 2 appliances that size to start with, but also because it was an oddity in a market of conformity - Very very few people were prepared to upgrade their laundry power and household fuse boxes to cope with its need for more amps.
In a country that many hold as 'world leader', the US doesn't appear to have a SINGLE domestic standard for power - different voltage/amps are supplied at different points in the house.
You can't just plug anything into any socket and it'll work.
Here and in the UK, you can.
I can plug a washer or dryer into the socket I have my bedside light plugged into or where the toaster is in the kitchen should the desire be there and it'll work correctly.
It makes no sense why a market would allow itself to develop this way and even less so that it was allowed to without intervention.
Here, the domestic standard is 240V/10amp...
Major items that need installing, such as heating systems or ducted airconditioning or very large split systems may need more amps than 240V/10amp. But then, they're not the sort of thing you just 'replace'.
However, the power requirement was one of several reasons that Fisher and Paykels top-loading electric dryer flopped here - insufficient space in laundrys not used to 2 appliances that size to start with, but also because it was an oddity in a market of conformity - Very very few people were prepared to upgrade their laundry power and household fuse boxes to cope with its need for more amps.
In a country that many hold as 'world leader', the US doesn't appear to have a SINGLE domestic standard for power - different voltage/amps are supplied at different points in the house.
You can't just plug anything into any socket and it'll work.
Here and in the UK, you can.
I can plug a washer or dryer into the socket I have my bedside light plugged into or where the toaster is in the kitchen should the desire be there and it'll work correctly.
It makes no sense why a market would allow itself to develop this way and even less so that it was allowed to without intervention.
"US doesn't appear to have a SINGLE domestic standar
Actually we do and it tis what causes EU/UK laundry appliance makers fits.
120v/15amps 60hz for most normal circuts.
120v/20amps 50hz for appliances requiring more power such as air conditioners.
220v/30amps 60hz for most applications requiring high power draw such as electric ranges, ovens, certian air conditioners (IIRC >10,000 watts), large clothes dryers, etc...
Just because an appliance is only rated for 10amps or 15amps at 220v does not mean one cannot use the 30amp circut. It just provides a larger wiggle room.
What Blomberg, Fagor, Asko, Bosch, and Miele (when they offered 220v washers) is that homes would have an electric "dryer" circut in the laundry area (again usually 220v at 30amps) so the washer and dryer could both be run off the same and not cause problems.
Washing machines with heaters are still rather new to Americans coming from top loaders and the offerings by domestic brands such as Whirlpool generally have heaters that draw 1000 watts or less. This keeps them below the requirements for a 120v/15amp circut.
Of course things would be much eaiser if the USA adopted 208s/220v power for everything like the UK, EU and other countries, but that isn't going to happen.
All the EU manufactuers have to face the same problems that caused Miele grief, not every home has nor wishes to install 220v power just to run a washing machine.
Actually we do and it tis what causes EU/UK laundry appliance makers fits.
120v/15amps 60hz for most normal circuts.
120v/20amps 50hz for appliances requiring more power such as air conditioners.
220v/30amps 60hz for most applications requiring high power draw such as electric ranges, ovens, certian air conditioners (IIRC >10,000 watts), large clothes dryers, etc...
Just because an appliance is only rated for 10amps or 15amps at 220v does not mean one cannot use the 30amp circut. It just provides a larger wiggle room.
What Blomberg, Fagor, Asko, Bosch, and Miele (when they offered 220v washers) is that homes would have an electric "dryer" circut in the laundry area (again usually 220v at 30amps) so the washer and dryer could both be run off the same and not cause problems.
Washing machines with heaters are still rather new to Americans coming from top loaders and the offerings by domestic brands such as Whirlpool generally have heaters that draw 1000 watts or less. This keeps them below the requirements for a 120v/15amp circut.
Of course things would be much eaiser if the USA adopted 208s/220v power for everything like the UK, EU and other countries, but that isn't going to happen.
All the EU manufactuers have to face the same problems that caused Miele grief, not every home has nor wishes to install 220v power just to run a washing machine.
mikeklondon
New member
IT sounds to complex
Most washers and dryers are rated at 2800- 3000 watts and up to that you can just plug in to any power point. High rating than that and you just have a 20- 45 amp point put in and the machine is wired in to that point directly.
Most washers and dryers are rated at 2800- 3000 watts and up to that you can just plug in to any power point. High rating than that and you just have a 20- 45 amp point put in and the machine is wired in to that point directly.
As has been discussed in previous threads, U.S residential power now is 120v and 240v. People refer to it as 110 and 220 out of (old) habit.
These readings are taken on the spare dryer circuit in my garage. 120v across one leg to ground/neutral, 240v across L1 & L2.
Being that standard residential circuits are 120v, heavy-duty appliances and equipment that takes 240v needs a dedicated circuit installed. A given 240v circuit is sized for the equipment it will service, thus the reason for a range of 240v amperage circuits and outlets.
Standard power circuits are 120v, rated at either 20a or 15a, but said circuits typically have a 15a receptacle even if sized with a 20a breaker. A 120v 20a receptacle can take a 15a plug but a 15a receptacle can't take a 20a plug, which has one horizontal prong and one vertical.
