120v/220v vs Straight "220v,208v etc.."

[launderess]

Most washers and dryers are rated at 2800- 3000

IIRC Miele's 19XX and maybe 12XX series had the most powerful heaters of EU washing machines sold on these shores (3000 watts). Fagor, Asko, Bosch, Blomberg, etc range anywhere from the low 2000watts to around 2800 watts.

Think Fagor has ceased importing 220v washers into the USA and now only has the W&D combo which makes one think the powerful heating elements are more for the dryer than heating water.

Blomberg units actually have gotten good reviews from owners and others here. Pity their distribution/service network isn't that strong yet.

Remember hearing and or reading somewhere that heating water is actually rather hard on washing machines, cannot imagine why.

 

[sudsmaster]

So where does the "120v" part come in then?

The basic US 220 volt circuit has two "hot" wires and one "cold" neutral wire. Either hot wire will give 120 volts when connected across a load (light bulb, heater, mixer, whatever) to the neutral wire. When the two hot wires are connected across a load to each other, then that load will see 220 volts. That's because the hot wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other.

The four prong US 220 volt has an extra measure of safety in the form of a separate ground wire. Theoretically (and in most practice) the neutral wire in a 3 prong setup is at the same electrical potential as ground. But because it is connected to 120 volt components of the appliance, it also carries current. The danger COULD come if there is a break in the neutral circuit, as in the wall or breaker panel, and then the neutral wire becomes "hot" with respect to ground. A separate ground wire adds a measure of security in the event that the chassis of the appliance is bonded to the neutral circuit and the neutral circuit fails. Of course if both the ground wire and the neutral wire circuits fail, then that measure of safety is gone.

As far as I know, the Miele 1918 uses 120 volts for the control panel, the drain pump, and things like the door locks and water valves. I don't know about the motors, but the heater elements are PROBABLY running of 220. I say probably because I have monitored the rate of heating of the 1918 to the 1065. The 1065 is MUCH faster at coming up to temp. Of course, that could be because the 1918 interrupts the heating circuit in order to slow down the rate of heating, better to enable a "profile" wash to allow the enzymes to do their thing for a longer period of time.

 

[jerrod6]

I have a Miele 1986.  I don't know about the control panel or other parts but I  replaced the cold fill valves last year and the specs on the box state that the valves are 240V.

 

The 3033.  Didn't someone post a picture of the inside of this 120V machine showing it has a transformer inside that is converting 120 to 240V....I thought I saw on this site.  If so it seems that it wouldn't cause Miele too much trouble to be able to deliver a 240v option for this machine if someone asked for it.

 

[DADoES]

 
It's not unheard that a U.S.-marketed machine has components that are not 120v.  F&P GWL10 uses a 230v pump.  Their topload dryer's 3-phase motor is rated 190v @ 85Hz.

 

[cleanlaundryluv]

Miele N. American 240V machines

I think all parts of the N. American Miele machines use 240V AC (some may be stepped down to low voltage DC, like the control board). How do I know this? Because the Neutral wire is not attached to anything inside the washer.

And if they decided to use the Ground as a Neutral for the 120V components, then the outside of the machine would be electricified--not likely! Therefore all components use 240V or step-downs to DC. That's the only way it would work safely.

At least on my W1213. Maybe on earlier ones they experimented with some 120V parts. But, it's unlikely as Miele makes most of their parts and to keep costs down would probably use 240V items across the board except for things that are frequency dependant (Hz) b/c they mostly make 50Hz machines (biggest market) but N. America uses 60Hz. In those cases they would either use DC or make specific 60Hz parts.

 

[launderess]

Miele 220v Machines

At least the older models of washing machines had parts which ran on 120v and others which required 220v. For instance the 10XX series of washers could be run on 120v/220 or pure 120v. Know at least the motor is 120v because one has tried findind similar in the EU as a back-up replacement and none will work because they are 220v/50hz.

Early dryers are an other story. There was a *vintage* Miele condenser dryer up for grabs awhile ago which clearly had a sticker on the front stating it required 220v/240v for operation. However the electrical plate read the same standard requirement all Miele appliances have "120v/220v". The plug on the unit was a standard three prong 220v plug similar to what one has on the Pfaff ironer. So if there were any 120v parts inside that dryer they were not bothered by running on 220v and or the machine was designed to cope.

 

[launderess]

Found the schematics for my Miele

Whilst had the thing opened a few days ago looking about as to the condition of the suspension system. Mind you several Miele techs have trooped in and out of my home and having had the machine open claimed they couldn't find the "paper". Soon as one opened and peered inside the unit they were clear as day. Right in front corner in a sealed plastic bag.

Anyway not that one is great at reading such documents, but can clearly see that both heating elements are 120v, as is the pump and motor. Indeed next to model name/numbers on the papers say "120v/60hz".

 

[sudsmaster]

Voltage doesn't tell the whole story.

Each wire to the motor could be labeled 110 volts. But if they are 180 degrees out of phase, then the load across the motor would be 220 volts.

Same for the heating elements.

It would be much easier for Miele to run 220/split phase across the heating elements - which don't care about frequency or the fact that the two hot leads are out of phase, so the same heating elements could be used for US spec and Euro spec machines. Motors can be more picky about things like line frequency, and there are special safety/insulation considerations for US spec 220, in which both leads are hot and there is no neutral circuit (typically).

 

[philr]

I think most older dryers can be easily converted to 4 prong/separate ground wires.

Here in Canada, we never had shared ground/neutral on our dryers and we can't get the wall outlets for these... I got two 240V dryers in the US and both could be easily converted to separate neutral/ground just by removing a ground wire attached to the chassis and neutral terminal in the dryer and replacing the power cord with a grounded one (and add the green wire to the chassis where the jumper was previously connected).

 

[toggleswitch]

Here is my question.

Is there a 4-wire 4-prong NORTH AMERICAN 220v socket and plug for LESS than 30 amps? I can not think of a configuration for a 110v/220v-15a or 110v/220v-20a circuit. The outlets that I can think of have only a ground and two hots, but not a neutral.

I also can not think of why a European-made machine would need a neutral, which with our system, would only serve to deliver 120v to the machine.

I just switched-out a 1987 Miele washer and condenser dryer with newer Miele washer and vented dryer for a friend. I had to take the 4-wire/prong "dryer" cords off the new machines, and go back to use the 4-wire cords that were used on the old machines. You see, the plug itself had 3-prongs. Within the plug itself the neutral and the ground were combined (by the electrician years ago who did the job). The wall outlet and circuit had three prongs only, no neutral.

It is obvious that Miele at that time had NO IDEA what our wiring color-codes were. And the scheme they used in their appliance junction boxes made ZERO intuitive sense (from USA viewpoint).

ORANGE (Machine) => RED(cord)
BLACK (Machine) => BLACK(cord)
BLUE (Machine) => WHITE (cord)
GREEN (Machine) => GREEN (cord)


BLUE is NEVER used here as a neutral (coded white here) BLUE here is a hot; usually 3-phase.

There was no documentation anywhere on the machine, or on the web, [the older one from 1987]to figure this out. It turns out there were tiny markings on the terminal block as to 1-2-N-G (i.e Line 1 Line 2, neutral, ground).

The NEWER Miele machines had the customary/appropriate color coding
BLACK-WHITE-RED-GREEN. [ H-N-H-G] Please note also that this order (of colors) is the traditional way found in wiring blocks in electric stoves/cookers and dryers.
That machine made total sense to me when connecting it.

 

[launderess]

I also can not think of why a European-made machine would ne

It is a puzzlement a Moi aussi, but that is what Miele claims it's 120v/220v machines require.

However being as that may as you've and other have found/pointed out many have used the old "three prong" 220v pulgs and simply used the matching outlet. If one's limited knowledge of electrical works holds then the machine isn't getting an isolated 120v line, but two 120v lines out of phase to make 220v.

Reading through various materials persons were kind enough to send in my efforts to sort out my vintage machine, one finds other interesting things as well.

Apparently Miele offered lower wattage heating elements for certain models of older washers. One could swap out the 3kW for a 2kW for the given reason that if the latter was causing too much of a power drain on a circut (tripping fuses).

 

[mikeklondon]

UK Electric

Its just gets more and more complex to me i wonder if there will ever be an international standard, dont think I'll see it in my life time, but then I am 58 this year. If there is I do so hope its nearer to ours then yours It sound far to complex

Launderes: I also can not think of why a European-made machine would need a neutral.

I'll let someone more technical explain that one our system only has 2 wires and an earth

 

[ronhic]

only has 2 wires and an earth

...so does ours....

 

[launderess]

The United States Will Switch To 220V Power Shortly Before I

Or just barely afterwards! *LOL*

Unlike much of the UK and EU that were in ruins post WWII and thus required rebuilding (a perfect time to make such decisions), the USA has built out and up an electrical power gird system that relies mainly upon 120v power for most (non large and or heating appliance) usage and that is all there is to it. It would cost billions and take years to change things around not to mention cause untold numbers of consumers grief as they would have to update appliances.

Again much of the reasons UK/EU homes require 220v (or even 400v in some areas) power just do not exsist here. Hot water comes from central boilers which are most often gas or oil heated. Those two types of fuel are usually cheaper than electric in many areas of the country and that is usually the largest influence on appliance purchases.

Being as all that may one does not doubt the value of washing machines that can heat water. However one does not have to go all out to 220v power. A 120v/20 amp circut would provide enough power to run a 1300w or 1500w heater which is more than enough, especially for the puny amounts of water most modern front loaders use.

 

[sudsmaster]

Again, it is my recollection that when I replaced the door lock relay on one of my 1065 washers, the circuitry was running off 110 volts, not 220.

I believe this to be the case for safety reasons: if everything on the washer ran at 220 volt split phase, then every circuit would have to be isolated from the frame, since both legs of 220 split phase are hot. By running only 110 volts to some parts, these circuits could be polarized and use frame ground, which would be the same as neutral. And even if they didn't use frame ground, the neutral circuit would not pose the same level of danger that a hot leg would.

Just a thought. Pretty sure that relay was rated at 110 volts.

Can't remember if I put a voltmeter on it during the repair, though.

 

[launderess]

Well Just Peeped Through Service Manual For W 11XX and 12XX

So far all the major components; pump, motor, and heater are 240v/208 volt, not a thing so far about 120v. But still the unit requires 120v/220v four prong plug.

As you say though it could be "lesser" componets do require 120v and are wired accordingly.

 

[sudsmaster]

OK, when I get around to it I'll crack open one of the W1065's again and test the door lock relay, which sends voltage/current to the door lock as needed. It makes sense that it would be 110, since it's mounted on the frame and having a neutral as one of the wires could cut down on shock potential issues. I'll also see if I can fish out the wiring diagram - as I recall they're in a plastic bag right up front inside the front panel on these washers. I just need to remember how to open the darn panels.

Keeping everything at 220 could make it easier to transform a Euro model into a US model, excepting of course the 50 hz vs. the 60 hz thing, which could be an issue for motors and computer controls.

 

[launderess]

OK, Our Miele Serviceman Just Left

While he was working on our unit asked about the 120v/220v thing and was told it was so various parts can work simultaneously. By that it was expalined drain pump and motor and so forth. The door lock for instance on such machines is 220v because it would be the only thing drawing current at that time (you cannot open the door whilst the motor and so forth are running), so there you are then.

 

[cornutt]

If it was up to me...

All homes would be supplied with 120/208Y three-phase power. That way, large appliances and machinery could use true three-phase motors, which would be more efficient. But three-phase wiring costs more, and a lot of residential areas in North American are not equipped with three-phase distribution.

The main reason the electrical codes here changed to the four-wire setup for 120/240V is because if some problem with your house's electrical service causes your neutral to "float", the chassis of any appliance that has the three-wire setup will become energized. (Floating neutral is a seriously bad thing. If you ever want to get a power company's attention, call their service number and tell them you have a floating neutral. You will be stunned at how fast they get a truck to your house.)

Someone asked the question of a NEMA plug that is for 240V at less than 30 amps. The answer is yes; go to the link below and look at 6-15R and 6-20R. Many older (1950s-60s vintage) houses in the Southeast U.S. have two or three 6-15R or 6-20R receptacles in the house, usually below a window. Back in the day, these were used for window air conditioners.

One other bit about dryers: As you know, most North American electric dryers only us 240V for the heater and its thermostats; everything else in the dryer runs at 120V. Back in the days of fuses instead of circuit breakers, it was not too uncommon that one of the two fuses on the dryer circit would blow while the other one remained non-blown. Depending which one blew, this could create a situation where the dryer would run and everything worked, except that there was no heat. This was so common that owner manuals for electric dryers instructed the owner to, in the event of no heat, check their house fuse box before calling for service.

http://www.cordsetsinc.com/includes/images/pages/configuration-chart-E.jpg

 

[launderess]

120v/220v Requirement Is Why American Dryers

Along with one assumes others with similar electrical requirements cannot be run from step-up converters. OTHO long as the converter is within rating limits and the outlet/electrical wiring can supply European units with straight "220v" power requirements have no problem.

Often persons with say power tools or some such that are only used now and then don't want to or cannot run a "220v" line and resort to step-up converters, however again if the thing requires 120v as well there goes that option.

Perhaps the best would be one of those "Quick 220" devices but then you need to find two outlets out of phase with each other. In some older homes/apartments were only one cable/wire brings in power to the fuse or breaker box (often split between two branches) even this option won't work.