Euro wash times vs. US wash times...

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pulsator

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How long does the wash cycle usually take on Euro washers? I've been thinking that the reason I'm having such trouble with the Ariel Excel Gel and Persil may be related to the fact that my Miele W1215 only washes for 27 minutes on the Normal cycle with a full load and 43 minutes on the whites cycle with a full load. My whites loads are usually on the small side and so the machine cuts the wash time to 36 minutes! Is that drastically different from Euro wash times? I've been using the extended option and am wondering what else I can do? Is there a way to change the programming to wash using Euro cycles? Because from my understanding, Euro wash times seems to be a LOT longer than US wash times!
 
euro wash times

on my miele the cottons wash at 60 is 1hr49 and the minimum iron cycle is 1.19. have tried Arieal gel and think its ok but I do prefer presil non bio liqui gel, better bubbles!
 
Normal wash for me is 1h50m. Actual washing is ca. 1h10m. Rest is for rinsing and spinning. Delicate wash is 45m. Actual washing ca. 25 m. Rest rinsing and spinning. My old Miele had about the same durations. For normal wash the first 10m. or so are cold, then heating starts. With delicate wash heating starts immediately.
 
Euro washtimes are way too long!!

I hate european washers, they seem to wash endless. My AEG needs up to 2:23 h for a boilwash and 30° normal cycle needs 1:54h! mainwash is about 1 hour.
But I prefer using the short wash cycle in order to save time and to protect and care my washing. 30 min for mainwash seems enough for my laundry and 2 rinses seem to be sufficient to get rid of the suds. I like using Ariel coz it actaully removes stains best.
 
I could be wrong but..........

My understanding of US spec washers vs. European spec washers and their cycle times is.........

Here in the US we have externally heated water supplies (water heaters) and washers have both HOT and COLD water supply lines connected to them, thus, get the desired water tempature WHEN the washer fills.

From what I have seen in Germany, Italy and Hong Kong, the Euro spec washers have only a COLD water supply line connected to them and use an internal heater to, yes you guessed it, heat the water for anything beyond cold.

Obviously it takes TIME to heat the water (and the wet cloths) from cold to the desired degree of hot-ness (hows that for a word? LOL) for the chosen wash cycle.

Time required to heat water = longer cycle times.
 
Are you talking about the wash time or the whole cycle time, including rinses and spin ?
Is it a cold fill machine ?
My Miele is set to 45 min wash time on a regular cotton cycle and if the extended button is pressed it is 75 min. A whole cycle can easily take 2 hours to complete.
I remember your socks did not come clean in the Ariel Excel thread. May I ask what type of Persil gives you poor results, German or UK one, powder or liquid ?
 
A suggestion.....

Jamie

Your Miele is 220V and has a heater right??

Id suggest putting a Y adaptor on the cold feed and trying it as cold fill only. Euro detergent is designed with an enzyme stage thats designed to work as the water heats- putting hot water in at this stage wont help things.

Using cold will probably extend the wash times as well.

If you were feeling brave I dont know if Miele US would be prepared to give it a Euro PC update???

Seamus
 
The main wash on our Electrolux takes approx.

25 min. for a cold quick wash
35 min. for a 104°F quick wash
40 min. for a 140°F quick wash
70 min. for a 104/140°F regular wash
100 min. for a 140° wash on the energy saving cycle

Rinsing & spinning adds another 30 to 40 minutes.

Have tried the Excel stuff and am not too pleased, either.

Alex
 
Wash times on "European" washing machines reflect several factors.

First, time is allowed to heat water (tap cold or warm) to whatever temperature desired. Some Euro front loaders have their thermostats routed through the timer, much like dishwashers and will hold the heating portion of the cycle untilt he proper temp is reached, (however long that may take). Other machines simply are programmed to allow certain time parameters for heating water, once that time is up machine will advance to main washing portion of the cycle, regardless of water temperature. However most if not all of the these machines will continue to heat the water until it reaches the set temp. However should the wash cycle time out before the temp is reached, then that is the end of that.

To be fair on 220v or even 400v power, heating 8 to 10 gallons of water from 80F to 140F or even 200F isn't going to take that much time. With American front loaders running on 120F, there probably are going to be some problems.

Long wash times also are a reflecton of European detergents, which combine oxygen bleaches, and perhaps enzymes.

The cold or cool water start, prevents protien stains from being set.

Warm water period is to activate enzymes, which worked best at 100F to 120F

Hot to boiling wash period was to give the oxgyen bleach proper temperature and time to work.

Being as all this may, modern detergents on Europe are more and more designed to work in "quick cycle" wash times. This is due mainly to advances in detergent chemistry which allow the above chemicals to work in cold, cool and warm water. Thus cleaning takes place rather quickly, instead of a long drawn out process.

There are enzymes that will work in cold and warm water.
Activated oxygen bleaches or percarbonate bleach (works in cold water, unlike perborate which needs hot water), mean bleaching action can start sooner and is complete even in warm water.

Your problems with Ariel and Persil may be related to your water quality and types of soil, and not merely a short cycle problem

Try adding some STPP along with your Persil. In my Miele normally use 2 tablespoons of Persil "Sensitive" along with 2 teaspoons to one tablespoon of STPP, for a full (5kg) wash load, and find everything comes out great. If you are in the habit of wearing socks around the home as "slippers", then you have ground in dirt, which will take some work to shift even under the best situations. However phosphates are great at removing clay based soils from laundry.

L.
 
Try Normal + Extended

Jamie,
if it isn't enough, use the soak option too (soak water is used for main wash too).
In EU mieles "extended" is the default setting, we have "short" option . 4 or 5 years ago the W2000 series (the MrBoilwash one, I guess) had default short washing times, then miele went back on tradition

Your W1215 is a specific model for US market so it has US timings as default setting BUT ... as my W844 has default EU settings, yet entering in service mode it is possible to switch to US/AU/Swedish programme timings, MAYBE your machine can do it too. Look for service manual

I bet your "sensitive" option can be customized to all the 4 ways as the EU equivalent "water plus" option

Carlo

 
Long wash times - a recent phenomenon

European h-axis washers have very long wash cycles, largely dictated by the requirements to meet EU performance ratings - the AAA rating being the nominal 'best'.

Before the advent of EU ratings, h-axis washers in Ireland and the UK had significantly shorter cycles, partly because hot and cold fill was common (only disappearing here in the last few years), and more significantly because the machines used much more water than is deemed acceptable now. Lower water levels require more mechanical action to remove dirt, so tumbling time is increased. A by-product is that the action is far rougher - formerly the tumbling action was cushioned by the water in the tub (and the turbulence in the water would help the washing action), now the laundry is effectively thrown against the wall of the wash-drum - rather like beating the laundry against a rock (albeit a stainless steel one - progress eh?). US and AU readers should probably read through the ad-men propaganda that describe the 'new' tumbling action HE washers as gentler on laundry that top-loaders - I doubt there is very much in it in the long term.

The cold-fill issue is a bit misleading - someone else has noted that the 14-20 litres of water in the average wash component of a cycle wouldn't take too long to raise with a 2.5kW heater on 220v. The 'washing powders perform better' stuff is a bit of ad-men work too - UK detergents are for all intents and purpose 'universal' - with different ingredients that are effective at different temperatures - enzymes at cool and warm temperatures and bleaches at higher temperatures. Organic stains set of course at high temps, but wash out in cool and warm water.

My Bosch FL is sold with claimed total cycles times a few minutes proud of an hour at 40 (US warm) and 60 (US hot) on a cotton cycle - not bad for a front loader, and ostensibly far better than much of the competition. The rub is that none of the basic default cycles is actually A rated!! To achieve the mythical A for performance, one has to select a 'Wash Plus' option which surprise, surprise doubles the total cycle time. Bosch users will know that there is a default 60 stains cycle - which takes over two hours. In addition the rinsing is poor even with the extra water option - especially if liquid detergents are used. Two hours might not seem excessive if one has one load to complete and other things to get on with - after all the washer is automatic, but when one has a back-log if is a total irritation - four loads takes longer than the average working day. I find this totally infuriating when one thinks that the now abandoned Hotpoint V-axis Top Loader would do a 60 cycle in about 40 minutes, with outstanding results (and that was in spite of an EU G rating). In other words, where an EU h-axis machine would take 8 hours for four loads, an American TL would have that done in about an hour - progress indeed...

So the laudable aims of conservation have given us washers that take much longer to complete their cycles. The Cold-Fill only business is now subject to the onset of a somewhat ironic back-lash, as people with green-sourced hot-water (from solar/geo-thermal etc) are wondering why they can't use this in the washers. I predict a full-circle point where we see manufacturers selling us Hot and Cold fill machines as the latest new eco-feature. Indeed I recently read an article in a 'How to be Green' directory which gave as advice point 3 'connect the washer to fill with hot water which will be more economical than heating it in the machine'....

Incidentally have any US readers tried the new Maytag Bravos with built-in heater? These machines seem like a great idea (and look cool) - I wish Maytag would bring them to the UK...I'd buy one



 
One reason I love my vintage Miele is that it has a mechanical timer. Can adapt any cycle to suit my needs, rather than allowing the machine to decide. This very handy when one has lots of laundry to get done, and not lots of time.

Cold Fills are one of the biggest "lies" being thrown around these days for front loaders. The concept does make sense in many parts of Europe, the UK and other parts of the world where central hot water heaters are unknown. Many French kitchens for instance still have a small on demand hot water heater in the kitchen near the tap, another in the bathroom and that is it. So if the washing machine is no where near either, it makes sense to let it take in cold water and get on with heating. However if one has a central source of hot water, and that water is going to be heated regardless, the savings by cold filling aren't what they are cracked up to be.

Consider many European front loaders do not heat water at full blast, but rather gradually, supposedly this is better for textiles. Well it also adds time to the cycle.
 
"I predict a full-circle point where we see manufacturers selling us Hot and Cold fill machines as the latest new eco-feature."

It already happened! Both Bosch/Siemens and Miele have released "Eco" washing machines on the German market which have a hot/cold fill.
 
Hints to confirm what Launderess and Liberator wrote

#The lie "cold fill = energy saving" : hot & cold fill EU FL#

- Here in Italy Zerowatt, Philco, Zanussi and even Candy made some washers with double fill to save energy

-Miele has ever suggested a double fill model for EU households who have solar/gaz/heat pump HW. In the last decade they are W913-W929-W3525-W3841. They can operate with hot/cold fill or rain/potable fill or well/potable fill. By the way, washing times are the same of the cold-fill-only models

-Now Zanussi too does it again. As here solar heated water is getting common, they sell SUNNY, a double fill machine. Very interesting feature : one can switch to cold fill only simply by pressing a button - see link - sorry, it's in italian... ask and i'll translate :)

#Longer times have to do with lower water levels too#

-In the early 70ies miele claimed to run the whole boilwash cycle by 70 minutes (higher levels & monster internal heaters)

- My 80ies W780 has 15 min prewash + 45 min wash whatever temp you choose vs the 10 min preW + 75 min W on the W844

- Consider the PW5065 Little Giant. It has the same drum size (53 litres) as EU household models BUT it takes only 49 mins to run a 60°C/140°F whole cycle. Ok, it's double fill and it has a powerful internal heaters. Just have a look on its user manual : programme sequence shows that certain "commercial" programmes (towelling, kitchen linen,table linen ...) run with higher water levels than the standard cotton programme. This happens to have both wash performance & short times



 
Heating in UK Front Loaders

Hi David liberator1509,
Your post is spot on and I enjoyed reading it.

I just want to add something as an Engineer (Now retired due to ill health).

I can assure you that 99% of Front loaders sold in the UK do heat to the selected water temperature. There is an exception though on the 95°C cycles the maximum temp reached is usually 85°C, this is by design as most washers are fitted with 85°C thermostats. The new electronic sensor designs are of course linked to Microprocessor Controls which are programmed to cut the heater at 85°C.
The only washers I recall that had 95°C stats were the old Philco Bendix machines, models 7142a,7147, 7147a, 7147b, 7147pb, the later 7148, 7168 and 71258 had 85°C stats. Like most UK Front Loaders the thermostats were linked to the timer; with the timer in the heat position the wash rhythm was reduced and the timer was locked until the temperature was reached, when the thermostat closed the timer was able to advance through the cycle.

There were some less common machines that used a much less accurate timed heating system, this system was usually found on bottom end machines.

David
 
At least you're not alone, Pulsator

Have received an email from a friend of mine who is using Ariel Excel in his Miele 1986 and reported having the same problem with white socks.

I generally wonder what kind of cleaning one can expect from a liquid? Maybe I'll sacrifice a white towel of mine and just try it out...

Alex
 
I don't know how it worked in the EU, but here we had the wringers for a long time before automatics came out. Even then, women typically washed for 10-15 minutes, enough time to rinse twice the previous load with wringing in between. Detergent manufacturers knowing this developed their products to work well in relatively short order. When the switch to automatics came about, detergents were already available for about a 10 minute wash. Since automatics saved the homemaker so much time and effort, short and efficient wash cycles mimicked how the wringer was used.

While the first automatics were frontloaders, Bendix gave a relatively long prewash at 6 mintes before the 9 minute main wash, thoroughly removing the dirt (we know rinsing was another matter). Westinghouse had a significantly longer wash times (IIRC about 20 minutes). The war set everything behind, but post-war was the toploading automatic boom.

Does anyone know why frontloaders were so much more popular in EU than tops? Were agitator wringers and twinnies the order of the day before the war, or was it semi-automatic H-axis washers that easily converted to automatics?
 

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