1950 Plymouth

[stan]

This has been a daily driver for some years, (not to far, or passed 55mph) and I've been nursing a clutch for a long time
(slips in third gear when climing)
Without warning (no noise) she decided not to let me shift into second gear.. I coasted to the side of the road with clutch in with shift in neutral position. When I came to a stop, I let up on the clutch (shift still in neutral) felt as though she was moving but like from second? Weird!
While still stopped, I shifted to first, and let up on clutch, felt as though she want to go but that something was stoping the rear wheels from turning. Now gear shift is stuck in first gear position. The really weird thing is that while the clutch is in, she can't be pushed, rear wheels won't move. But also seems to start with clutch in with out learching forward??
Tried rocking it back and forth, tried crawling under to see if I could get shifter pins loose or something but it's cold greasy and I'm not up to a chalange right now. So called a tow truck (had to be towed from the front) to the mechanic. He'll take a look Tuesday.
Any ideas as to this very strange incident.
Could it be as simple as a shifter linkage? Or loosing a cotter pin? Or ..

 

[ea56]

Stan,

Maybe the clutch linkage broke? I used to have a 71' Maverick with 3 on the tree. Back in 1983 I was in Santa Rosa and stopped at a red light with the clutch in. When the light turned green I let up on the clutch , but it stayed on the floor. I didn't know what to do so I just pressed down on the acelerator and the car moved forward in 1st gear. So when the engine sounded like it was time to shift to 2nd I made the shift, without the clutch! Surprisingly, I was able to drive all the way home to Petaluma this way, about 18 miles, shifting through all three gears as needed! And believe it or not the gears barely even had any grinding noise. The next day I drove to my mechanic and had the linkage repaired. He told me that since I knew how to shift at the right engine speed, thats why I was able to drive home without the clutch. I will say that it sure seemed strange to drive like this without using the clutch, but I guess necessity is the Mother of invention. And thankfully, my little Maverick was no worse for the wear.
Eddie[this post was last edited: 1/2/2016-01:14]

 

[rp2813]

Stan

I can't say it's exactly the same, but it sounds a lot like what happened to Dave in the '50 GMC once.   The Jimmy has a column shift, and I presume the Plymouth does as well.

 

I don't know what Dave did, but the linkage was jammed up like typewriter keys and wouldn't even budge when I attempted to manipulate the column-to-transmission connecting rods by hand under the hood (something that has always quickly cleared similar but less severe trouble in the past).

 

The truck had to be towed, but it indeed turned out to be nothing more than the linkage that needed to be freed up.  The mechanic gave Dave a lesson in how the transmission wanted to be shifted.  I used to cringe whenever he was behind the wheel of the Jimmy because of the way he murdered the entire drive train.  I've been driving that truck since 1971 and when I'm behind the wheel it's like an extension of myself.

 

I'm not sure what to make of the Plymouth starting but also not budging with the clutch disengaged, but it makes me think the clutch is not the problem.  I think you're on the right track and should for sure check the linkage to see if it has gotten sloppy or a component has failed.  I hope it's an easy fix like you're thinking it might be.  Keep us posted.

 

Ralph

 

[mayken4now]

Shift Linkage all the way.  Now, you can take a look under the hood and manually if you know how, put it in a gear such as first and drive it home very slowly and do not attempt to change gears via the shift.  Then have the linkage fixed.  Let us know how it works for you..................

 

[sudsmaster]

It could also be seized up rear brakes, or seized up parking brake.

 

 

[wayupnorth]

We had a 51 Plymouth as a second car for years. I remember the clutch and brake pedals went thru the floor, under the car and the transmission was not a synchromesh, as you had to be at a complete stop to shift into first without gears grinding. Most annoying thing about the car was single speed wipers (think extra slow). I dont believe that engine could power the car over 55 mph.

 

[supersuds]

Plymouths, like all cars of that era, had synchomesh on second and third but not first. The theory was that you wouldn't need to shift to first unless you were at a complete stop. After 1940, IIRC, Plymouth's second gear ratio was 1.83 to 1, and a lot of people just started in second all the time anyway.

Ford brought out an all-synchro 3 speed in 1963 or thereabouts, and even sold them to GM.

 

[lordkenmore]

Nice Plymouth! I love the color.

A high school classmate had a Plymouth from IIRC the early 1950s. He loved that car, and claimed that someone once smashed into him at a stop sign. The Plymouth emerged pretty much unscathed. The other car, however, suffered significant damage. Other memory: Chrysler at that time had a special key with IIRC a crystal-like Chrysler emblem. My classmate swore the key would probably work on his car, and thought seriously of getting that modern key blank cut for his car.

 

[artcurus]

Unless it's a 58

Nahh, but that Pontiac behind it would be a nice score also.

 

[stan]

Hi guys

No news yet as it sits at the mechanic til Tuesday.
Seized up parking brake is what it feels like, however, while driving a moment before this happened, it didn't want to shift into second, and I didn't want to force it, so coasted to the side of the road in neutral with clutch in. None of it makes sense to me. No noise, no grinding, no warning!
@john.. The color is what Plymouth called Channel Green.
Syncro on second, but I don't use it much.
@tim.. Engine will power passed 55mph but I've never felt comfortable traveling at that speed in it. No updated brakes ect.
Wipers do have more than one speed, but if the vacuum motor is worn, or if there a small leak, then you just get slow. While in third gear, if there is sudden acceleration, the wipers will momentarily stop or slow. (Normal) I've changed wiper motor on it once, kind of a PITA I took the cowl vent out to access it to avoid laying in my back
It's a quirky old thing

 

[wayupnorth]

Stan, My parents 51 Plymouth had electric wipers with the on-off switch right in the top middle center hard metal dashboard of the 2 piece windshield and they were super slow. I remember my father saying, look, we have a new car as it rolled over 100,000 miles to 0 but it was still the same old car and he eventually sold it for $75. My mother hated that car because it was a standard and no power steering. Mother drove the nice station wagon.

 

[sudsmaster]

I actually have two 1950 Plymouth four door sedans. One runs and ready to go at any time. The other one was bought with a frozen motor and is basically a donor car, although the body is very straight with little rust.

 

I have on occasion driven off with the parking brake lightly engaged, only to find that as it heats up it will very suddenly bring the car to a screeching halt. It works by compressing an asbestos cloth lined steel band around a drum on the driveshaft. at the rear of the transmission.

 

I actually tore down and rebuilt a spare '50 Plymouth transmission in a manual transmission class about five years ago. These are very simple transmissions, and relatively easy to take apart and put back together. I suppose something internal could have busted preventing proper shifting, in addition to problems with the external linkage.

 

I assuming you keep it topped up with gear oil...

 

Never had any problems with it that I could trace to the external linkage, though. Shifting into reverse can be a little balky, probably the reverse gear has some chewed up teeth, which is common in an older manual. There is only one synchro ring in these trannies, aiding the downshift from third to second. No synchro is needed to shift from 1st to second, as I recall. And yes, the car can start on a level surface in second, no problem. 1st is very low but helpful for very steep hills. In which case it's usually advisable to shift into 1st before entering the grade. LOL.

 

 

As far as top speed goes, these engines redline at 3600 rpm, which translates to about 65 mph. However I do try to keep it under 60 on the freeway. The cars themselves handle relatively well considering their era, but the skinny rims and stock tires do limit cornering. The steering box is relatively low effort with lots of turns and a wide diameter steering wheel.

 

One can probably find a replacement used transmission at a vintage car wrecker, or on eBay. They are easy to pull and replace, if you have a transmission jack.

 

The runner 50 has a vacuum wiper system and a vacuum booster pump running off the same cam that powers the fuel pump. It is infinitely adjustable in speed, although usually a slow speed is preferred as it can go nuts when compression braking downhill. I find vacuum wipers to be highly entertaining.

 

[ovrphil]

It's pretty, Stan. I remember counting cars that were of this era, on Coolidge Hwy, in my home town, when traffic in the early 60's was so light, you had to wait a long time to get a string of seven cars. Your car brings back a lot of different memories, of the men and times that drove these. Hope it isn't a big cost or you can find a reasonable solution to repair it.

Phil

 

[rp2813]

Stan, you already know this, but one thing is for certain.  The way to keep cars like this in proper working order is to drive them.  The reason my GMC still starts right up and drives reasonably well is because it has never sat idle for more than maybe a month since it was new.

 

[stan]

Gear oil!

It's been over a year since that's been checked! Thanks for the reminder Sudsmaster.
I'll be so embarrassed if this was a self inflicted wound!

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, unless you've noticed a major gear oil stain under the car, I'm guessing it's probably OK, but it doesn't hurt to check.

 

Come to think of it, I haven't checked mine for probably about five years now. At least.

 

And no, while I used to drive it daily, back in the 90's, I decided around 2003 to give it a rest and drive it maybe 3-4 times a year, to car shows or just to limber her up. Doesn't seem to hurt, but I do keep it garaged. Most recent repair has been to starter solenoid, which on this vehicle is conveniently located bolted to the side of the engine compartment just above the driver side wheel well. Near the battery. The old one, probably the one that came with the car in 1950, was sticking in the ON position, so it wouldn't stop spinning the starter even after the ignition key was turned to on instead of start. Revving the motor usually would flick the starter off, but I don't like revving a cold motor. A whack with a hammer worked to, but that was a temporary measure. Found a serviceable new one online for about $25 and it works fine. Just doesn't look as ancient as the original (bakelite bottom case instead of all metal case).

 

These old cars are sort of hard to kill. The motors are simple, low compression, low HP (98) very torquey, etc. They will run with scored cylinders (don't ask), burnt valves, etc. Probably would run on diesel as well. It's a basic motor design that Chrysler debuted in 1924. Downsized for the Plymouth around 1930 and gradually updated. The motor stayed in production cars until the late 1950's when the slant-six came along, and was still produced and used in various industrial settings like fork lifts for decades more.

 

The one aspect that is annoying is getting a smooth clutch release. The "Floating Power" feature lets the motor rock too much and then the clutch grabs and shudders. If the FP motor mounts are tightened up the shuddering is reduced or goes away, but then there is too much motor vibration transmitted to the frame. I've tried all sorts of mount settings, nothing really resolves the problem. Talked to other owners with the same experience. I know it's not me because the '67 Chevy Van with MT has silkly smooth (well, sort of) clutch engagement. I even tried replacing the clutch and resurfaced flywheel (twice), no luck. It's got a 10 inch clutch in it now, so it never slips.

 

Sometimes starting in second is the answer. It's enough to make one want a fluid clutch, until one remembers how much power those things sapped.

 

 

[stan]

Hi Rich

I've never noticed a shutter..
Still have original solenoid, no problems (yet) I do get some vibration at highway speed's but thought it may be U Joint ware ect, but now you got me thinking.
The only oil leak I've got is a rear main seal (dribble) that's been leaking for years. Something I thought would best be changed when the clutch went out. Just didn't want that all to be now!
Temp gage went out last summer (worn or broken tube) Another "lay on ur back" under the dash job.

 

[rp2813]

Topping off gear oil

The transmission on the GMC had a drip from the filler plug for quite a while, but not to the point of leaving obvious evidence on the driveway.  I'd just notice it when I was under the truck for other reasons.

 

For years, after sitting at a red light in neutral with the clutch disengaged, when the light turned green and I'd depress the clutch I'd get grinding that would wind down over a period of five or ten seconds as I attempted to engage first gear.  I got used to it and knew to anticipate it.

 

Then a year or two ago the transmission was getting noisy and it sounded like an old milk truck.  I decided to check the gear oil level and add some if necessary.  It took well over a pint!

 

The milk truck noise was gone and the grinding issue cleared up too.  Now the light turns green and off we (relatively) quietly go.  I made sure the filler plug was good and tight when I replaced it.

 

It's worth topping off the gear oil before investigating the linkage.

 

[dartman]

The flathead 6 was used till about 1960 in trucks and I think 59 in cars. However they were used in military trucks and forklifts and industrial stuff like that till 68.
I had a 50 Dodge Coronet with a Fluid Drive 4 speed semi automatic. It had 2 speeds low, 2 speeds high and a clutch plus a torque converter so you could roll to a stop and leave it in gear with the clutch out. I believe you could change gears but maybe had to use the clutch going low to high.
I never got it running even though the motor was free and also had a 41 Power Wagon then that did run and drive.
Mine was a 4 door sedan but sure was a cool old tank and the front suspension was fully independent similar to modern cars and pretty sure it even had a sway bar so might be why they drive better then you'd think such a old beast should.
Pretty sure they got lousy mpg but gas was dirt cheap back then so nobody cared. The 41 got 9 mpg loaded or empty.

 

[stan]

Thanks Ralph

I'll check!
Terry, I've never paid a lot of attention to gas milage with this old girl, but I know it dose better than 9 mpg! Interestingvaboutvthr fluid drive..I always thought that with fluid drive you still had to use the safety clutch to go in reverse, and into first? Never have drivin one!

 

[sudsmaster]

As I recall on long trips I have averaged about 20 mpg in the four door '50 Plymouth. Like any standard (non-hybrid) car, mileage plummets in stop and go traffic, or around town.

 

I do recall getting better mileage before California started adulterating the gas with MTBE and, later, ethanol.

 

 

[cfz2882]

plymouth flathead six...

...was copied by the Russians and used in some of their military trucks-a 4 cyl version of same basic design was also made by the Russians-Cubans discovered parts from the Russian engines work on the vintage American engines,though metric threads on the Russian parts Two of my vehicles with external linkage manual transmissions-'68 c10 and '82 z28- developed a habit of jamming in two gears at once if shifted "wrong"on the pickup,would have to get out and pull on the linkage rods(3 on the tree)until it popped free-on the z28,would have to slip partway under that low-slung machine and pull the shift rods...Worn/misadjusted linkage was the cause with both vehicles.

 

[lordkenmore]

>As I recall on long trips I have averaged about 20 mpg in the four door '50 Plymouth.

Doesn't seem that bad all things considered. I've had newer 4 cylinder cars that barely got maybe mid 20s MPG range. Yesterday, I rode in someone's Subaru, which was getting about 21 MPG on a trip that was mostly highway.

Another thought--and correct me if I'm wrong--but it seems like gas quality would be less of an issue in an old Plymouth. I know I've heard lots of strong suggestions over the years to use Chevron or other high cost gas due to additives that help keep fuel injectors clean. But you don't have fuel injectors to worry about on that old Plymouth. As long as the gas isn't liquid sludge, it SEEMS like anything should be fine.

 

[norgeway]

Top speed 65..NAAAAA

I had a 53 I drove daily for several years, Took it on several trips, it cruised nicely at 65 or 70 with no strain at all, as for brakes, Plymouths of this era had dual wheel cylinders on the front wheels and as long as you can get asbestos brake lining they are the finest brakes you can have, My Grandparents had a 52 and Mom and Dad also had a 53 for many years, Plymouths of this era were fine cars, the only cars on the market with electric wipers, as for top speed, I got in a race once with a guy in a v8 40 Ford, I stayed ahead of him up to about 75, the Ford would do just under 100 in those days, the Plymouth about 90.

 

[lordkenmore]

> it cruised nicely at 65 or 70 with no strain at all

Never drove a car of that vintage. But I did have a small 4 cylinder Japanese car made ca. 1980. Acceleration was horrible, but had absolutely no problem cruising at 70+. Not bad when one considers it dated to an era when 55 was the top speed in the US, gas economy was a huge concern, etc.

I have no idea what the top speed was. But I can say that when Montana had no speed limit, I hit a speed above what the speedometer could measure in one of the flat parts of that state.

 

[lordkenmore]

>I got in a race once with a guy in a v8 40 Ford, I stayed ahead of him up to about 75, the Ford would do just under 100 in those days, the Plymouth about 90.

I can't remember for sure, and correct me if I'm wrong... But I have a sense that I might have read that 6 cylinder Fords of some vintage (I'm thinking ca. 1950) actually had better acceleration than the V8 at lower speeds.

 

[rp2813]

I've had the GMC up to 65, but I don't feel safe going that fast with it on crowded area freeways -- or even empty ones, plus it gets pretty loud in the cab.  It seems to have a sweet spot at around 57, so that's where I tend to top out, and I always keep to the far right lane.

 

So Stan, what happened to that (flowering cherry?) tree?  Did it get struck by lightning or something?

 

[ea56]

I'm pretty sure that I've read this too about the 49 to 52 Ford 6's having better low end acceleration than the V-8's in Hemmings Classic Car. I believe that this was due to the 6's having higher low end torque. These older American cars were really a lot of fun to drive and still are, if you're lucky enough to have one. And the 3 spd. column shifts were so easy to drive, provided that the linkage was in good working order. Really very little shifting in most normal driving. I guess I'm just behind the times, but I really am not interested in having a car with a 6 spd. manual. Why would you want to have to shift so much?
Anyway, I sure do appreciate Stan's 50 Plymouth. We had a few of them in my family in the 50's and early 60's and I remember well riding in them. The floors in the backseat were so big that we kid's would play board games and color on the floor while on long drives.
Eddie

 

[sudsmaster]

218 Plymouth flathead six top speed

My second engine rebuilder was rather adamant that I not drive the car above 55. He said the motor was never designed for sustained top speeds, and the bearings and rings would wear out quickly if pushed to the limit. I had top components installed the second time around... forged pistons, tri-metal main bearings. And relatively tight tolerances. It doesn't burn any oil after 20 years, so there is that.

 

The larger Dodge/Desoto/Chrysler 230 and larger flathead sixes can be longer lived, mainly because there's more room in the block to space the cylinders with more meat around them. The 218 block was shortened and hence the cylinders are rather closely packed. This limits the amount of overbore that can be done, and also affects cooling.

 

Plymouth was the entry level car for Chrysler Corp. It is a good car but certain economies were taken in production. Oddly, it was their smallest car but even the smallest 50 Plymouth today would count as a full-size car.

 

The rear main seal will always seep a bit. The secret to a less leaky one is to avoid the rubber seals and only use a rope type seal. It won't seal as tightly to begin with but it also won't deteriorate quickly from heat and age like the rubber ones will. And besides, the engine breather tube exits under the chassis, keeping the road oiled anyway.

 

 

[lordkenmore]

>I guess I'm just behind the times, but I really am not interested in having a car with a 6 spd. manual. Why would you want to have to shift so much?

I've only had 5 speeds, but I don't find the shifting too bad. Mainly, I guess, it all takes place about the same time when accelerating, so what's an extra shift or two?

Living with a modern 4 speed (used in economy cars) might be more annoying. I had one years back, and it seemed like there were moments when no gear seemed quite right... And I remember looking once at a Toyota truck that had a 4 speed, and wasn't selling. Apparently it was the lack of a 5 speed that was causing it to linger and linger.