1978 Norge bearings? Seal?

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akronman

akronman

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Jul 20, 2010
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Akron/Cleveland Ohio
I have a Norge washer, 20#, model LWA2065B, from 76 or 78 (Fedders era), with the white Burp-A-Lator. All has been well until a week ago. Wash agitation was fine, it paused then started neutral drain. When it kicked into spin, it was VERY slow. I waited until almost all water was out, then gave it a hand-push by turning the agitator. It got up to full speed. I did the same again for the final spin, the load was full of towels. I then tried a light load of clothes, agitation fine, then when spin kicked in, a rumbling grinding noise for a few seconds, then the motor overload tripped out. I also noticed a small amount of water dripping from the base. So I don't know if it's bearings--tranny--tub seal, all of the above? 2 loads earlier was a perfect wash, very rapidly something(S) failed entirely.

I drained her and let her sit for a week, I just moments ago tried a dry agitation and it was fine. When I turned to spin, almost immediately the motor cut out.

There's not a lot of Norge literature out there, and the model #LWA2065B00 doesn't help me anywhere at all, out of 12 parts websites. I have a 1970 Norge(Fedders) Repair Master. It shows both a brake solenoid and a clutch solenoid, mine is a later model with only the loud brake solenoid, so I can only somewhat trust what that book shows.

 

I love this machine, I have had great luck thru hard work repairing/restoring many other makes, but not much Norge work. til now!

 

Any advice on where to start, what bearing kit to buy, what to tear into, will be greatly appreciated and photoed and posted. I'll do more reading in the 1970 Repair Master tonight, but can't yet figure why locked up spinning is also giving me a leak. I ain't guessing this is gonna be an easy fix, but after 18 months with that great machine burping away and doing everything loud and well, it will be worth it.

akronman++5-29-2013-19-57-22.jpg
 
norge bearing

IIRC,Robert replaced a bearing on a ~1964 norge if you can find that thread your later norge may be similar if not the same.Since the motor was overloading on your washer,might be a clutch rather than bearing problem?
 
Malfunctioning Norge Washer

Hi Mark, it does sound like you are in for a major tub bearing and seal job, but I can't quite figure why the motor is going out on overload when the brake solenoid releases the brake to let the tub start spinning. These washers do not have a clutch as such, when the machine is doing its neutral drain the bottom input shaft going into the bottom of the transmission is turning full speed and a helix spring in the bottom of the transmission is slipping away but applying some driving force trying to make the tr-any and basket spin so the motor load will actually be reduced when the brake solenoid is on and the tub is free to start spinning. Maybe I am not understanding your description of the problem ?  Call me if you like, John.
 
John and Robert

John---I will do more investigations before I take anything apart. This will end up being major surgery for sure.

 

Robert--thanks for the link, excellent!

[this post was last edited: 5/30/2013-07:41]
 
A potentially dumb question...

Could an article of clothing gotten in between the tubs? Lord knows I've seen a Maytag or twenty eat a sock or something...

RCD
 
further investigation

The Norge is out of the line up currently, no water, no clothes. I tipped it back to check the belt, all looks fine there. I took off the front to inspect more, all looks fine and the brake solenoid engages. So I plugged her in, put her in a dry agitate and all is well. Then I put her in the spin mode of the pre-wash, and she spins just fine!!!!!! Of course, with no water it immediately kicks into spin, no waiting for a partial neutral drain. As loud as ever, but right up to speed. Then the motor eventually properly stops and she coasts to a stop and then soon the brake engages and the timer stops. So right now all looks well. The motor has the proper tensioning spring in place perfectly, the motor pivots a bit as it switches from CCW to CW for its various functions.

 

I may have misspoken in the very first posting here, I truly don't rememebr if it was the motor overload cutting out a week ago or the circuit breaker across the room. I am more remembering the breaker on the wall, not the motor overload. Big difference, I know. Does that tell me that agitate windings were dry, but a seal leak let water hit a weak exposed wire in the spin windings instead? Is that my recent problem? But that doesn't explain why 2 times I hand-spun it and it got up to speed, that doesn't explain the rumbling nasty noise before it tripped the breaker. I am pretty sure breaker, not any Norge electric component.

 

Something tells me it's time to pour a few gallons in and watch down below. I am happy it's running in both agitate and spin right now, but no water and no clothes isn't really a working washer, is it? I'll post more later after the water tests. This one has me thinking a lot and confused for a while, oh well.

 

 A side question---during normal operation, no opening of the lid to sound that loud brake, and no shutting off the machine mid-cycle to engage that loud brake--------the heavy brake band pretty much stays in one exact position on the shaft as it agitates and the shaft doesn't turn, then during spin the band stays tight on that same section and turns exactly with the shaft, right? The only time it really catches and stays in place while the shaft continues to turn is the 3 seconds it brakes everything when the lid is opened or the cycle stopped in the middle? Am I making any sense? Kinda thinking aloud here, typing aloud.
 
more

with 1/2 a tub of water, agitation is fine and no leaks from the bearing/seal. As soon as spin begins, a slow but steady stream of water down from the tub seal, onto the tranny and spun around the base of the washer, the motor, etc. So she needs a full bearing/seal replacement.
 
Malfunctioning Norge Washer

Hi Mark, your further posts mark this failure more plausible, Is this washer plugged into a ground fault circuit?. A slight water leak could differently trip a GF breaker and possibility even a regular one. There is not a separate winding in the motor for wash and spin only a set of start windings and the run windings. You are correct that the brake is not normally used on these Norge style machines with the brake solenoid unless you kill the power or raise the lid when the tub is spinning.

 

These 20 pound Cap Norges draw a LOT of amps with their silly 3/4 HP motors, if you are going to rebuild and keep this washer as a daily driver I would substitute a 1/2 HP motor at some point, doing this will save you from destroying the timer and water-level switch and having other wiring failures, the bigger motor was NEVER needed and just caused lots of problems.

 

Keep us posted, John
 
Hey John Combo

John----this one is only 1/2HP. When I got the machine from Dave Volvoguy in early 2012, it came with a used replacement Norge 1/2 HP motor, which I immediately installed. The original 3/4 had failed, that is why the machine was up for grabs from some local guy.

 

All my basement is GFCI except for the one outlet for my GE Filter Flo. 2 different late 70's GE's often tripped the GFCI at one exact same spot in the regular cycle, so I put one outlet back to regfular  and only use the GE there, who knows.

 

BAck to the Norge-----Robert's thread on his 64 machine so far looks amazinlgy similar to my 78 Norge----the bearing and seal repair kit is known as LA-2009, there may easily be other kits I don't know off. So far NO LUCK with websearching, etc.

http://www.repairclinic.com/PartDetail/Tub-Seal-and-Bearing-Kit/LA2009/1623
akronman++5-31-2013-10-17-44.jpg
 
Oh wow

So i called my nearby Appliance Parts store, and $80 later look what I now have. He said it's been on his shelf since 82, his last pricing was 2005, it's his last one. I have no idea if I could have found one cheaper, oh well.

As great as my old Norge is, with summer here various laundry projects go a bit slower than in January. I will keep you posted--

Thanks for advice John--Robert--and all

akronman++5-31-2013-11-07-49.jpg
 
Norge 3/4 horse motor..

Norge marketed there washers much as Speed Queen does now, commercial grade washers for the home,there were tons of Norge landromats in those days,just as there were and still are Speed Queens, Norge was very much over built, the secret to long life with a Norge is DO NOT!! raise the lid while spinning, the brake is the weak point, let it stop on its own completely before opening.All in all, it will outwash about anything, IMHO!
 
hurry up and wait

so currently, I have coated that base with more PB Blaster, friends will be over at lunch and can add 4 more hands to break away the tub from the agitator post. You can see the remnants of a worn out cork gasket that was underneath the removed rubber ring, it should be easy to fabricate one for re-assembly.

akronman++6-1-2013-08-15-11.jpg
 
last one for now

Here's the splined agitator block. I don't think I have to remove it for the work I'm doing, it can just stay there and be ugly and gross.  Earlier styles used a hexagon block, this is 1978 model with that burpalator which is damn good at filtering.

 

This splined block sits above the water line entirely, and I will actually eventually clean it up(a bit). Is this a case where I should then coat it with a minor amount of white lithium grease or vaseline before re-assembly, to slow down continued corrosion? The picture ain't clear, you've all seen ugly dirty greasy grimy agitator posts before, no new thrills here.

akronman++6-1-2013-08-25-30.jpg
 
Rebuilding The Norge

Congratulations on finding the needed parts, YAY. The basket will come out easily now that the bolts have been removed, an easy way to break it loose from the lower flange is to stand in the wash tub and shift your weight from one side to the other, this usually works very quickly [ If you try this have someone spot for you or hold on to the ceiling joists in the basement so you don't get hurt when it breaks loose ].

 

  I would not put any type of lubricant on the agitator drive block upon reassembly. I would remove it and glass bead to clean and if it is in acceptable condition paint it with some type of coating to minimize further corrosion [ I think it would not be too hard to find this part new and I probably have good used ones if you can't find one ]

 

  Why a 3/4 HP motor? I order to be able to claim 20LB capacity and pass ULs electrical testing the machine had to be able to complete a full wash cycle without the motor going out on overload. And while these were big washers the tub capacity was really only about 15 #s capacity. It was also advertising hype for Montgomery Wards as they were always trying to score points against the leader, Sears Kenmore. But unfortunately the bigger motor only made a fair to poor durability washer even less durable.  The commercial machines never dared to use the 3/4 HP motors and Norge and Wards continued to sell 18# models with the same size tubs equipped with 1/2HP motors.

 

  The very powerful brake assembly these large capacity Norges used could be a trouble spot, but they did not fail because people lifted the lid too often during spin and thus activating the brake. The brake was used to hold the tub stationary during agitation and the constant tugging back and forth on the break arm and its mounting pivot was what destroyed this assembly. You could open the lid when the washer is spinning at full speed hundreds of times and it would never likely hurt the brake assembly, but the washing action especially if the tub is heavily loaded put a much greater strain on the brake parts than breaking ever would.
 
troubles?

Dis-assembly ok until I noticed this: my new outer tub flange has 6 holes, whereas my tub has 4, not good news. Also, the first of these bolts, 3 seconds after setting the camera down, broke about halfway down its hole. So for now, 2 shots of PB Blaster a day for a few days and then a second effort.

 

What is the idea behind heating the bolt with a torch? Never tried, but gladly will.

akronman++6-3-2013-12-27-15.jpg
 
Norge Rebuilding Fun

This is why I only ever replaced main bearings and seals in Norge designed and built washers 3 or 4 times [ which was at least two times too many, LOL ] But it can be done and I have great confidence that you will prevail Mark.

 

On a side note I was talking to my friend Bob in Cleveland, Ohio this morning and he has three Norge or Montgomery Wards solenoid brake style washers that are all in good running condition that he wants to get rid of. Mark you may want to get one to fix yours with or if anyone else wants a REAL NORGE call or Email me and I will get you in touch with Bob.
 
Hi Mark, heat prevents bolt breakage without having to wait like when you use a pb-blaster type oil. I would never consider removing rusty bolts without firing them first with a torch, I've broken way too many that way. The only time I don't use a torch is when there is rubber or plastic parts close by that could be damaged by the heat. Also its good to turn the bolt left a bit and then turn it back to the right, slowly but surely going slightly more to the left each time. Do just keep turning it to the left and then back to the right. This sort of "agitating" the bolt loose is a more gentle way of removing old bolts.

As for the two extra holes, just use two part plumbers epoxy putty to seal up the extra holes and you will be fine as long as the part is otherwise the same.
 

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