2012-Conventional top load washers being discontinued?
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As another poster stated upthread, the USA federal energy program is not about water per se, but the energy used to heat said water for washing dishes or laundry.
The first salvo was fired over the bow when warm or even hot rinses were eased out in favour of cold water on most washing machines. Of course one can often work around this, as could some of the pre-set low water levels on washing machines. But apparently no files are growing on those in the DOE, and manufacturers have found ways to stop that as well.
Now some states, such as California are considering or have made water use by appliances their business, owing to long and severe shortages.
The first salvo was fired over the bow when warm or even hot rinses were eased out in favour of cold water on most washing machines. Of course one can often work around this, as could some of the pre-set low water levels on washing machines. But apparently no files are growing on those in the DOE, and manufacturers have found ways to stop that as well.
Now some states, such as California are considering or have made water use by appliances their business, owing to long and severe shortages.
Energy Star is about water also
If it were just about energy, we'd have all the unheated rinse water we wanted.
If it were just about energy, we'd have all the unheated rinse water we wanted.
mysteryclock
Well-known member
Have to disagree about water vs. energy
...politely, of course! In an ever-increasing part of the US it really *is* more about water than energy. Water may be a huge problem right now in your particular area but even the normally wet-and-green southeast has seen its share of drought conditions in the past few years along with some draconian water restrictions.. just ask the folks in Atlanta! And in the southWEST the situation is far, far worse. We can always MAKE more power but FINDING more water is a real problem until we can build industrial-scale desalinization plants which we really aren't doing in great numbers right now.
I've posted this image (of Lake Mead) before but it illustrates the problem pretty graphically. When people opine that "water is the new oil" they may be exaggerating today, but perhaps not so much beyond tomorrow...
...politely, of course! In an ever-increasing part of the US it really *is* more about water than energy. Water may be a huge problem right now in your particular area but even the normally wet-and-green southeast has seen its share of drought conditions in the past few years along with some draconian water restrictions.. just ask the folks in Atlanta! And in the southWEST the situation is far, far worse. We can always MAKE more power but FINDING more water is a real problem until we can build industrial-scale desalinization plants which we really aren't doing in great numbers right now.
I've posted this image (of Lake Mead) before but it illustrates the problem pretty graphically. When people opine that "water is the new oil" they may be exaggerating today, but perhaps not so much beyond tomorrow...
no more agitator toploaders since 2012 ? guess no
I always have wondered why Whirlpool and Electrolux frontloaders for northamerican markets have some missing features that these corporates offer on european models
I mean : the coin trap. It's a plain thing, no rocket science involved, ridiculous additional cost but machines without it will have the drain pump clogged, maybe sooner, maybe later
So my guess they deliberately miss it in american models. Why ? More service calls mean more complaints toward frontloaders. This way frontloaders will increase with a slower rate. This way both WP and E'lux will be able to make small upgrades to production lines. Small upgrades diluted on years are more convenient than a sudden total swap from TL production lines to FL ones.
I suspect there are other hidden "matters". A clue : Electrolux Europe allows customer to subscribe a further 4 years warrantee when the by-law 2 year one expires.
This applies to whatever their appliance BUT the american made Affinity. This way they admit the Affinity build quality is lower than average Electrolux standards (that lately have had a severe drop....) .
I can't help "thinking of them" making flimsy frontloaders for the american market to delay toploader production lines demise
I always have wondered why Whirlpool and Electrolux frontloaders for northamerican markets have some missing features that these corporates offer on european models
I mean : the coin trap. It's a plain thing, no rocket science involved, ridiculous additional cost but machines without it will have the drain pump clogged, maybe sooner, maybe later
So my guess they deliberately miss it in american models. Why ? More service calls mean more complaints toward frontloaders. This way frontloaders will increase with a slower rate. This way both WP and E'lux will be able to make small upgrades to production lines. Small upgrades diluted on years are more convenient than a sudden total swap from TL production lines to FL ones.
I suspect there are other hidden "matters". A clue : Electrolux Europe allows customer to subscribe a further 4 years warrantee when the by-law 2 year one expires.
This applies to whatever their appliance BUT the american made Affinity. This way they admit the Affinity build quality is lower than average Electrolux standards (that lately have had a severe drop....) .
I can't help "thinking of them" making flimsy frontloaders for the american market to delay toploader production lines demise
water is the new oil
Mysteryclock is right, we are often prone to think in a mere "my own backyard" frame of mind. This lead us to ignore whats happening elsewhere around us.
In Middle East there are actual water wars
e.g. Israel and Palestine claim their own rights to use Jordan river water. Same is happening in Iran and Iraq for Tigris and Euphrates rivers
In Europe water pipelines have always been public. in the last 20/30 years many countries went to private and water became no more that cheap. Go figure Paris minicipality has recently gone back to public because of this matter ....
Go figure that in y. 2002 in Berlin 1000 liters (round 250 gallons) of water costed 4.24 euro = 5.84 USD
Mysteryclock is right, we are often prone to think in a mere "my own backyard" frame of mind. This lead us to ignore whats happening elsewhere around us.
In Middle East there are actual water wars
e.g. Israel and Palestine claim their own rights to use Jordan river water. Same is happening in Iran and Iraq for Tigris and Euphrates rivers
In Europe water pipelines have always been public. in the last 20/30 years many countries went to private and water became no more that cheap. Go figure Paris minicipality has recently gone back to public because of this matter ....
Go figure that in y. 2002 in Berlin 1000 liters (round 250 gallons) of water costed 4.24 euro = 5.84 USD
Unfortunately, this is how many Americans think:
1. My town/county has plenty of water; ergo, conserving water is bullshit.
2. It snowed a lot in Washington, D.C.; ergo, climate change is bullshit.
1. My town/county has plenty of water; ergo, conserving water is bullshit.
2. It snowed a lot in Washington, D.C.; ergo, climate change is bullshit.
vintagesearch
Well-known member
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- Messages
- 554
i think global warming is real im not being ignorant however, i feel that in particular something like this is a far way of just putting a band aid on the real problem. If everyone pays a water bill trust me the sheer consciousness behind it will trigger the thought of how much am i actually using around here? I turn off lights when not in room, i dont to leave the water running when doing dishes, and specifically when doing laundry i always match water level and do decent sized loads to keep it more economical i dont just wash a pair of jeans and socks for the hell of it LOL. Also in all reality most HE appliances as we all know often are mediocre for reliability. There are members here that go all out on spending money and take good care of there units and and "error code" a "factory default malfunction" no thanks. and how about those eco friendly toilets? we have one and its no good we have had nothing but problems since day one dont even ask what we have to do not to clog it its a process LOL it may look pretty but looks aint everything LOOL and the money we spent ughhh
You guys are spot-on with the water & climate statements. Ignorance can be cured though. There is an ongoing drought in China right now that has diminished drinking water supplies to 10 million people. Many areas have to depend on water that is trucked in. While this seems far away, have another look at that picture of Lake Mead. It's real and it will touch everyone. Tap water supplies in this country have always been heavily subsidized by the government (Socialism coming out of your tap!) but once the supplies of fresh water start to run dry, whatever the cause, water will be much more expensive as local, state and federal government agencies won't be able to subsidize the costs without either higher rates or higher taxes.
Rapunzel, it only seems to be the US machines that Lack the Additional water options.
The Bosch, Miele, LG, Electrolux and Whirlpool machines in Europe/AU all have sensitive options that either increase the number of rinses or increase the water level.
I dont know why the US doesnt adjust the legislation to increase the flexibility to give people the choice. The issue seems to be that US consumers are seen as being dumb and the machines are configured to keep the options as close to what they had on a TL machine.
I've had no rinse issues with 3 low level rinses on my Miele and have found two rinses with the auto rinse control (Which can fill 1/3 of the way up the glass if needed) does a great job.
Its all what you get used to. I've been front load only for 5 years after a lifetime of Topload machines and I'd never go back, but that has been my experience with a flexible good quality machine. With the right machine and an open mind, people could be pleasantly surprised.
The Bosch, Miele, LG, Electrolux and Whirlpool machines in Europe/AU all have sensitive options that either increase the number of rinses or increase the water level.
I dont know why the US doesnt adjust the legislation to increase the flexibility to give people the choice. The issue seems to be that US consumers are seen as being dumb and the machines are configured to keep the options as close to what they had on a TL machine.
I've had no rinse issues with 3 low level rinses on my Miele and have found two rinses with the auto rinse control (Which can fill 1/3 of the way up the glass if needed) does a great job.
Its all what you get used to. I've been front load only for 5 years after a lifetime of Topload machines and I'd never go back, but that has been my experience with a flexible good quality machine. With the right machine and an open mind, people could be pleasantly surprised.
'The issue seems to be that US consumers are seen as bei
and the machines are configured to keep the options as close to what they had on a TL machine.'
I don't necessarily think that this has to do with anyone assuming that US consumers are dumb(er) than average, because they are not. It is my guess that manufacturers, especially foreign ones, want to make sure that their products find appeal with American consumers. Everyone wants to sell their stuff in the States and competition is fierce there.
Hi Brisnat,
Okay now, my point is this - why not design machines that wash and rinse clothes properly without the need for add-on options and other gimmicks? Appliances that do not go into landfill after only half a dozen years or so? Yeah, I know, I'm starting to sound like a broken record.
My preferences are different to yours and I would not be satisfied with the three low level rinses. Then again, there are lots of other things about front loaders that I would not be satisfied with. I know them well and don't want to get used to these machines again. I want clean, well-rinsed clothes from a machine that satisfies my expectations and meets my needs.
Appliances fascinate me and I (sometimes) love doing laundry, but I do this for eight (nine from Saturday) people. It isn't only about watching the agitator swish clothes around and make a suds cake. I also have to iron, fold and put away everything. The scope of this task takes on another meaning when you have more than one or two people to do this for.
I have no time for gimmicks, know what gets my clothes clean and want this done qickly, efficiently and with the level of flexibility and convenience that only a traditional top loader can offer. I want plenty of water and, when I do the washing, I am in control, not the machine. No mucking around here.
Thats all for now - take care
Olav
and the machines are configured to keep the options as close to what they had on a TL machine.'
I don't necessarily think that this has to do with anyone assuming that US consumers are dumb(er) than average, because they are not. It is my guess that manufacturers, especially foreign ones, want to make sure that their products find appeal with American consumers. Everyone wants to sell their stuff in the States and competition is fierce there.
Hi Brisnat,
Okay now, my point is this - why not design machines that wash and rinse clothes properly without the need for add-on options and other gimmicks? Appliances that do not go into landfill after only half a dozen years or so? Yeah, I know, I'm starting to sound like a broken record.
My preferences are different to yours and I would not be satisfied with the three low level rinses. Then again, there are lots of other things about front loaders that I would not be satisfied with. I know them well and don't want to get used to these machines again. I want clean, well-rinsed clothes from a machine that satisfies my expectations and meets my needs.
Appliances fascinate me and I (sometimes) love doing laundry, but I do this for eight (nine from Saturday) people. It isn't only about watching the agitator swish clothes around and make a suds cake. I also have to iron, fold and put away everything. The scope of this task takes on another meaning when you have more than one or two people to do this for.
I have no time for gimmicks, know what gets my clothes clean and want this done qickly, efficiently and with the level of flexibility and convenience that only a traditional top loader can offer. I want plenty of water and, when I do the washing, I am in control, not the machine. No mucking around here.
Thats all for now - take care
Olav
lotsosudz
Well-known member
Well this is just my opinion but........
I think we should shoot everyone, and let the Lord sortem out!
LOL Sorry guy's, it was getting way too serious for my liking.
Thought we could use a little humour. My bad?
David
I think we should shoot everyone, and let the Lord sortem out!
LOL Sorry guy's, it was getting way too serious for my liking.
Thought we could use a little humour. My bad?
David
US consumers aren't dumb, but...
we've certainly been taken for fools, being led to believe that "government regulations" require manufacturers to make water-sipping, tepid-water-washing front-loaders. They're actually doing it for the tax credits. If we all knew this, maybe we'd insist on better front-loaders.
Top-loaders, on the other hand, use enough water and energy to actually be pinched by the current and upcoming mandatory federal standard for clothes washers.
we've certainly been taken for fools, being led to believe that "government regulations" require manufacturers to make water-sipping, tepid-water-washing front-loaders. They're actually doing it for the tax credits. If we all knew this, maybe we'd insist on better front-loaders.
Top-loaders, on the other hand, use enough water and energy to actually be pinched by the current and upcoming mandatory federal standard for clothes washers.
runematic
Well-known member
I recently finished service training on the new direct drive replacement washer.
I WILL NOT//CANNOT GO INTO TOO MUCH DETAIL SINCE THIS PRODUCT HAS NOT BEEN INTRODUCED OR EVEN HAD ANYTHING WRITTEN ABOUT IT YET.
It looks like they will mostly be HE top loaders made in the USA for the "premium brands." Look for the value brands to remain DD for the next year or so as well.
And NO, it's not based on anything epednableday arecay (in other words not an older DC Maytag).
I WILL NOT//CANNOT GO INTO TOO MUCH DETAIL SINCE THIS PRODUCT HAS NOT BEEN INTRODUCED OR EVEN HAD ANYTHING WRITTEN ABOUT IT YET.
It looks like they will mostly be HE top loaders made in the USA for the "premium brands." Look for the value brands to remain DD for the next year or so as well.
And NO, it's not based on anything epednableday arecay (in other words not an older DC Maytag).
runematic
Well-known member
Oh, and according to one of my reps, LG will make the washer called Oasis for Kenmore now.
spankomatic
Well-known member
My thoughts...
1. I am all for freedom of choice. If I want a top loader I should be able to buy one. The government should not decide that for me.
2. Water is an issue. Years back during a drought year here in California we could not do laundry at home. We were on water meters and had to save every ounce of water just for showers. We had to go to the laundromat. Rates would double and triple if we went over.
3. The rainy season is almost over here and the reservoirs should be full by now. They are NOT!
4. California needs to build more reservoirs so we would not have this problem. The growth in population has already happened here and we are not going back.
5. Some of these top loaders are just too stingy on the water for me. There needs to be some happy compromise on water levels.
1. I am all for freedom of choice. If I want a top loader I should be able to buy one. The government should not decide that for me.
2. Water is an issue. Years back during a drought year here in California we could not do laundry at home. We were on water meters and had to save every ounce of water just for showers. We had to go to the laundromat. Rates would double and triple if we went over.
3. The rainy season is almost over here and the reservoirs should be full by now. They are NOT!
4. California needs to build more reservoirs so we would not have this problem. The growth in population has already happened here and we are not going back.
5. Some of these top loaders are just too stingy on the water for me. There needs to be some happy compromise on water levels.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
2. Water is an issue. Years back during a drought year here in California we could not do laundry at home. We were on water meters and had to save every ounce of water just for showers. We had to go to the laundromat. Rates would double and triple if we went over.
WOW! That's just crazy!
We went through a drought here ONCE.....It was blazing hot and I don't we had any measurable rain for a month and a half...For here that's a LONG time to go without rain. I know parts of California will go months without rain and that's normal. Unfortunately they had years of drought. I heard reports on TWC that the you guys had drought busting rains this winter. I'm surprised the reservoirs are still low.
WOW! That's just crazy!
We went through a drought here ONCE.....It was blazing hot and I don't we had any measurable rain for a month and a half...For here that's a LONG time to go without rain. I know parts of California will go months without rain and that's normal. Unfortunately they had years of drought. I heard reports on TWC that the you guys had drought busting rains this winter. I'm surprised the reservoirs are still low.
vivalalavatrice
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,031
TLHA!!!
I'd never get tired to shout it... BLAST! It would be so EASY, either for US market alwasy gone against this kind of machine...
Until the last breath..... TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS ...........................
Hurry-up manufacturers thoug to make those dusty projects coming out from the drawer and get to US brothers the washing machine they've been waitinh for almost fifty years! The top loading convenience TOGETHER with the horizontal axis efficiency... And if only the critic point of this product were the drum flaps, well they last fifty years to get them better and better... what else you'r waiting for?
DIOMEDE
I'd never get tired to shout it... BLAST! It would be so EASY, either for US market alwasy gone against this kind of machine...
Until the last breath..... TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS TOP LOADING HORINTAL AXIS ...........................
Hurry-up manufacturers thoug to make those dusty projects coming out from the drawer and get to US brothers the washing machine they've been waitinh for almost fifty years! The top loading convenience TOGETHER with the horizontal axis efficiency... And if only the critic point of this product were the drum flaps, well they last fifty years to get them better and better... what else you'r waiting for?
DIOMEDE
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