70's Kenmore Suds model

[akronman]

Hey John

Yea, I think the easy out idea is good, I'll try it soon. I do strongly want to get it all apart, replace the drain hose grommet and center post grommet, throw a nice glob of sealant over the tub bolts, the porcelain seams of the outer tub, all the stuff one's supposed to do on an old WP/K. I also think it's really easier to drill/tap/EZ-out with all the assembly out of the washer, instead of standing over it, leaning, etc. We'll see.

My 1960 WP has the same technology dispensers, I've used them for 3.5 years with extra hot water poured in, etc, they stay clean with a small amount of care. This one takes about 1 and 1/3 cups each side, the old one was more like 3/4 only, so this should truly be easy to keep running free with that space for hot water each load.

As ugly as the cabinet looked, it's only surface rust and should all clean up and take new paint well. Colors are fine if you get a machine that doesn't need repainting, but I like white for the old rusty ones, so darn easy.

and I ran enough loads with the timer as is, it works perfectly, so I'm gonna do the diagram labelled changes while it's all apart. Energize and switch between one wire and one contact for that optional second rinse, and switch the suds to kick on as soon as draining begins. Currently, it drains out the drain hose until the water level switch kicks in. then you get maybe 18 suds gallons saved. The diagram shows where to re-wire to get all 25 gallons, suds saving right from the moment draining starts. I've gone thru many loads with both hoses in the same tub, my soapstone sink takes maybe 25 and 1/8 gallons, very close to overflow.

 

[akronman]

Finished(almost)

What a washer! The leak was the fabric/bleach dispenser hose and entire cheap plastic assembly all along, which I figured out after sealing everything else! And the base of the dispenser was full of cracks, see the bone-dry repair job, what a hoot!
I can see why it's wiser for Lady K to have flow through, no-clog dispensers. This one is now working imperfectly, the bleach side drains out about half way before the solenoid activates, I can't get it seated perfectly. But I can live with that, as rarely as I LCB. The FS side works fine. Both solenoids are pretty quiet instead of the loud ones on my 1960.

I used a patch of nylon window screen under the JB Weld for starters, held around the edges by tape. Once the first patch dried, I removed the tape and went over the entire area with a new coat of JB Weld to fill in the screen. 2 small leaks remained, sealed with blue RTV. Under the rusted Corwin clamp, a leaky hose, but most of the lenght was fine. On the top water level for washing, the very base of this hose is below the water level, so it leaks all thru a full tub load. I spliced in a 6 inch section, all new clamps, lots of slack for suspension movement, this washer is now DRY DRY DRY. Pretty hokey way to repair, but it can't be seen and it works. And, I doubt I could find a new dispenser.

 

[akronman]

Filtering

Since I never got the inner tub out, but it doesn't leak a drop, I never got into the filter. But here's the lint from the sieve, it kicks out the drain hose, never the suds hose. I still don't know the details on how the hosing works with the suds valve and filter system, but you do not get the self-clean filter glog-O'Lint in the suds tub, only down the drain hose. SMART STUFF!

Yes, that strainer will be used Monday night for pasta!

 

[akronman]

cycling

I jumpered the correct contact from the timer into the correct wire, and switched that line with a simple 120 V, 10amp toggle switch behind the console. As soon as the spin motor stops at the end of the normal cycle, it immediately fills for the second rinse. Seems like 4 minutes of agitation, then a thorough spin out with no spray rinsing. I'll rarely use it, but I finally have my automatic second rinse machine.

Since I watch most every load I ever wash, the lid hinges and lid sitting on the floor aren't a worry to me, lol. I'll fix that soon, no biggie.

The only other (non)-issue is the detergent dispenser solenoid, non-working, and I don't have the damn dispenser anyways, and it only kicks in at the longest time for each cycle, wouldn't even do any good if you only wanted 6 minutes or something. Wish I had it, but oh well.

So---Still left to do, the suds start out the drain hose, it only switches to the suds hose once the level switch calls for water. Then the rest, most, of the suds go in the correct tub. But my laundry tubs are huge, can hold it all, I gotta do the suggestion on the diagram for ALL suds into the suds tub.

ALSO----while sucking suds---it only sucks in until the level switch is satisfied! You can get baqck only 3/4 of a tub if you want! My 79 GE just simply sucks for 4 minutes regardless of the level switch. This is TOO COOL. This console does EVERYTHING.

I am also quite impressed with my songle speed, no option solid tub Speed Queen. The variety is what I enjoy.

Thanks for all suggestions and advice, I'll check soon with Gordon for that "all suds" feature.[this post was last edited: 5/4/2014-00:03]

 

[rp2813]

Great Story!

Mark, you did a great job on this old girl, and I'm thrilled to know someone else appreciates this model as much as I do.  I have a soft spot for it, since in a way it's the first washer I ever shopped for and it certainly exceeded my expectations.

 

You nailed it re:  the detergent dispenser.  Using it is an exception rather than the rule.  You're not missing anything, but I understand that it would still be a novelty to have one and watch it work -- a time or two. 

 

The FS and LCB dispensers on my mom's machine had issues on more than one occasion.  I took to cutting patches from other plastic material that seemed compatible, and used a soldering gun to graft them onto the problem areas.  Ugly, but they all held.

 

[combo52]

KM BD Suds-Saver Operation

On Self-Cleaning filter models, the filter flushing-cleaning only occurs when the water is draining through the rinse drain hose, you can easily trace the drain hose goes from the pump to the two-way suds valve and then either to the SCF or out the suds-save-drain hose.

The water-level switch [ or even float ] was always in the circuit during Suds-Return on WP built washers, this prevented an overflow if somehow you had more water in the save tub than the washer could handle, many other washer brands [ I will not name them here, LOL ] were not this clever on their SSer models.

The Single-Shot dispensers were easy to fix, I think we still stock new dispenser bodies and the little plastic plunger with the rubber seal at the end. If your bleach is leaking out you need this plunger and seal.

The single shot detergent dispenser was ONLY meant to be used with either the soak-prewash followed by automatic advance to a 2nd wash period. You would never use this dispenser more than once for a regular single wash cycle as they were a mess to clean. I found one yesterday while cleaning at our parts room, and like most of these I have ever seen it was certainty never used.

John L.

 

[akronman]

John

Wow---that's some news! Price me up 2 plunger/seals and that detergent dispenser for sure if you're interested in selling. Or at least take a pic of the dispenser. With the detergent solenoid not working, maybe I ain't interested? But it would be nice to see what it looks like.

But for sure I'll buy the plungers, might as well get 2 if you have them around. All the leaks are sealed on that cheap plastic piece of crap, every RTV color of the rainbow, and the solenoids are fine.

While I don't expect to use the Soak-To-Wash and extra rinse often, it's quite a cycle. First it pulls in the amount of suds you want on low speed, then 4 minutes low speed agitation, then 20ish minutes of pause/10seconds low spped agi/etc. Then 4 minutes more of low speed agitation, drain out the drain hose, low speed spin with no sprays. Then automatically into 14 minutes of highspeed wash cycle with new detergent dispensed, suds get saved at the end of wash, the normal Kenmore spray rinses before and after deep rinse. Then it goes into the final rinse, with no spraying afterwards. That is one big long deluxe cycle with so many options in it. It's just over 180degrees of the timer, start to finish! Once in a while, for the hell of it, I gotta find some really grossly dirty clothes and just let her rip. And let the water meter just rip too, lol. For the price I paid for this machine, I got quite a highly optioned powerhouse.

And that tub, it matches right up there with extra-sized Maytags, doesn't it? So far, the Penta-Swirl does everything. Not wildly, like 1-18's and Norges, but effectively.

John--thanks for help and advice--
Mark

 

[akronman]

Design flaw

Well nothing is perfect, but this surprised me. On the highest water level, the tub water is about an inch above the bottom of the FS and LCB dispensers. Between that and no flo-through water design, the LCB barely moves!!!!! The fabic softener, on the other hand, gets dispensed when the tub is just barely beginning to fill for rinse, so that runs down the hose and into the tub properly. But with no flo-through, if it isn't strongly diluted, I bet some stays in that hose for sure to be flushed out the next time I'm dumb enough to try the other half for bleach. On the other hand, any level below full would allow everything to work properly.

Tons of this machine is cool as hell and works wonderfully, but nothing about the dispenser system is very well designed or built. At least it no longer leaks.

Other than that, a strong machine and all the options one wants for cycles/sudsing/extra rinse, very good washer here. 39 years old and going strong.

 

[combo52]

Single Shot LC Bleach Dispenser

Good observation Mark, I have also often thought that this looked like less than a perfect way for the bleach to enter the wash water, although it does seem to work.

If you look at the WP-KM both BD and DD and MT machines without the solenoid it would also seem that the LCB would just get stuck in the hose that leads to the bottom of the outer tub if it was added after the washer was filled, but again it does seem to work.

On my 1971 LKM that has the dispenser like yours I ran the hose from the dispenser to a port on the side check valve, this way the LCB, and softener is sucked into the recirculating water system. You can actually hear it going in as when the last of it goes down you hear the sucking sound.

 

[akronman]

Hey John Combo

John------I'll gladly run that hose elsewhere. Read your emails, buddy, if you are interested in selling 2 of those plunger/seals. Then the whole assembly will work perfectly and I'll gladly run the hose elsewhere, it will solve their design flaw. Then this washer will kinda be better than brand new. Kinda. And the dispensers will work for any water level, properly, and all fluids will get into the system.

Gordon----I am hoping you are reading----you have given great help on Kenmores, and you were right on the leak, I sure as hell wasn't.

I am getting more familiar with the hoses, this baby has quite a few. I am guessing I need to run it into #47 on this diagram, the hose from the outgoing pump to the suds valve? During agitation(for LCB Dispensing), that hose does this: (I am asking more than stating knowledge)
a)Tub water gets sucked into the filter thru the one side port.
b)goes out the bottom hose connection on the outer side of filter.
c)continues thru the "jumper hose" that stick out the back of the cabinet
d) goes thru the suds valve to the inside-the-cabinet connection, this hose 47 to splice
e)goes thru the negative pressure, sucking pump and thereby into the bottom of the tub for agitation and bleaching.

Haha, I learned all that as I stared at the diagram and typed!

Then , for Fabric Softening, the dispenser will open simultaneously with the water valves open for rinse water. The diluted softener will run down my new hose into hose #47 close to the pump and sit while the tub fills(diluting more as the hose fills, but there's no active flow right now). When agitation starts, it will rapidly get pulled into the stream of negative pressure water, just like the LCB during active water flow, and come into the tub at the bottom drain opening, base of outer tub.

Now, if anyone has any patience left, and kinda for the archives for Kenmore Suds Models mid 70's with this tub mount self-cleaning filter, I'm gonna list for myself and any overly patiient fellow what happens:

First of all, this huge Kenmore knows many laundry tubs wont hold 25 gallons, so it starts with a normal drain into your sewer:
a)flapper inside the pump moves for outgoing pumping, high speed positive pressure and the suds valve stays in the agitation mode. Water moves from the bottom of the tub, thru the pump, thru hose 47 to the susd valve, into that exterior jumper hose again, to the bottom port on the exterior of the filter, backwashes out the lint thru the top port on the outside of the filter, then right out the hose for sewer draining, gone gone gone.

When the water level switch calls for water, it instead activates the suds valve. The pressurized pumping water instead flows into your suds drain tub for saving. The other hose from the suds valve is inactive now, so the backwashing lint filtering is inactive now. You only get clean suds, no lint. Since no suds get saved for rinse water, again it automatically backwashes out the correct hose, from start to finish of rinse pumpouts. Anyone interested, this machine automatically saves suds on NORMAL and KNIT-Delicate, no savings on PermaPress.

From typing this out, I am guessing there is a check valve of some sort built right into the tub-mounted filter
.

Is good old Home D gonna have a 1" barb fitting with a 3/8 or so tee? I guess I better find that before cutting a hose, lol. Or a 1" tee, then a reducing fitting or two. There's decent space near the pump and up to this dispenser for plumbing add-ons.

I apologize for the longest thread of the year, but typing it out and running it past some pro's solidifies it in my head. I love my BOL machines too, trust me, but some brains went into all this machines behaviors. Except the cheap plastic dispenser!
Done typing----thanks to you all for advice and patient reading.
MArk

 

[akronman]

Oh good lord

I humbly apologize!!! I (obviously) just had my 2nd pot of coffee for the day! Wow, that got long-winded---
Sorry-Mark

 

[cornutt]

That's a great explanation, actually!

And after reading your explanation, I'm beginning to understand how that strange "jumper hose" on the exterior of the cabinet came to be. It probably stems from the addition of the self-cleaning filter to the older suds valve setup. On the older machines with the manual-clean filters, I think the suds port went straight to the suds hose. Making it work without the self-cleaning filter would have involved changing the way the suds valve mounted in the cabinet.

 

[cornutt]

That's a great explanation, actually!

And after reading your explanation, I'm beginning to understand how that strange "jumper hose" on the exterior of the cabinet came to be. It probably stems from the addition of the self-cleaning filter to the older suds valve setup. On the older machines with the manual-clean filters, I think the suds port went straight to the suds hose. Making it work without the self-cleaning filter would have involved changing the way the suds valve mounted in the cabinet.

 

[cornutt]

I have no idea how I posted that twice...

 

[akronman]

Wrong again

Hose 47 is negative pressure during agitation, but pressurized/pumping during all draining periods, I can't tap into it. Hose #30 or #41 are the only ones for this purpose, their only use is recirculating.

 

[combo52]

Exterior Jumper Hose

This hose was only on Super Capacity models with a SCF and Suds-Saver feature for the simple reason they ran out of space in the cabinet, on all the standard capacity models they managed to get everything inside.

Whirlpool-Kenmore had three different positions that the two-way SS valve was mounted in over the 1947-1987 duration of BD washer production.

{ there was also a cheaper to build system tried around 1957 that was quickly abandoned that used a TWV that was mounted on the base-plate and controlled by the agitate cam-bar ]

John L.

 

[akronman]

6-3-2014 PATENT of the Day

is the missing detergent dispenser!

This machine has quieted down significantly with use, goes into spin nearly silently.
The dispensers are working with no leaks, that agitator turns over anything, it's a great Kenmore!

Thanks to all for the advice on its repairs, it's the coolest Suds model I own.
Mark