American Made Junk!
- Thread starter Timonator
- Start date
My quandary is this.....
Do I support "Fat Cat" American executives, or American workers. My Chevrolet only has about 40% American Parts, and the only American involved in putting it together and getting it to me was the salesman. Now, at 90K Miles it is literally falling apart. I mean, pieces are literally dropping off, and accessories (expensive options) are not working properly.
On the other hand. Hyundai's are built from start to finish in Alabama, and are backed up with a good warranty.
I have had the best luck with Chryslers. The only car I have ever gotten 200K miles out of. I think they are now mostly American.
Do I support "Fat Cat" American executives, or American workers. My Chevrolet only has about 40% American Parts, and the only American involved in putting it together and getting it to me was the salesman. Now, at 90K Miles it is literally falling apart. I mean, pieces are literally dropping off, and accessories (expensive options) are not working properly.
On the other hand. Hyundai's are built from start to finish in Alabama, and are backed up with a good warranty.
I have had the best luck with Chryslers. The only car I have ever gotten 200K miles out of. I think they are now mostly American.
American made junk
Tim,
What a funny thread. My first post messed up. Let's see, I am still driving a very dependable old Buick that has the nerve to have a rust spot starting on one of the doors. I just built a new house last year and my 30+ years Maytag 806 washer and dryer were still washing the clothes. I was cooking my meals on the 1978 Frigidaire Custom Imperial range and my Frigidair bottom freezer was still keeping the milk cold. Who could use my parents Air-Way sweeper! It was only from 1950 or 51 and still sucking the dirt off the rug. I still enjoy my Zenith Trans-Oceanic radio that I got as a graduation gift in 1971. I always enjoy taking a friend to have her her her Altima repaired. She has to ride in that terrible old 1990 Buick! What a fun thread!Thanks for the laughs.
Tim,
What a funny thread. My first post messed up. Let's see, I am still driving a very dependable old Buick that has the nerve to have a rust spot starting on one of the doors. I just built a new house last year and my 30+ years Maytag 806 washer and dryer were still washing the clothes. I was cooking my meals on the 1978 Frigidaire Custom Imperial range and my Frigidair bottom freezer was still keeping the milk cold. Who could use my parents Air-Way sweeper! It was only from 1950 or 51 and still sucking the dirt off the rug. I still enjoy my Zenith Trans-Oceanic radio that I got as a graduation gift in 1971. I always enjoy taking a friend to have her her her Altima repaired. She has to ride in that terrible old 1990 Buick! What a fun thread!Thanks for the laughs.
bpetersxx
Well-known member
washing the wallet
Is that the same as money laundering
I had one of those toy washers when I was a kid.
Friend of mine washed her dolls clothes in it then her older sister spun them dry in their moms Maytag 606 washer
Is that the same as money laundering
I had one of those toy washers when I was a kid.
Friend of mine washed her dolls clothes in it then her older sister spun them dry in their moms Maytag 606 washer
thirtyater
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
- Messages
- 205
American trash
Here is my 2 cents worth! I have owned numerous American cars and driven many of them to 200,000 to 250,000 thousand miles with no motor or tranny repairs(and we are also talking about 1970's Lincolns and T-birds with 3 speed automatics). In fact the only motor repair I have made is to a 1982 Cadillac DeVille. It turns out it had a very poor quality foreign made 4100 engine. I presently own about 25 american cars. I could not possibly be more happy with the quality of my American vehicles.
My GE washer is 10 to 15 years old and is used daily and hasn't been repaired yet. I would buy another GE.
Here is my 2 cents worth! I have owned numerous American cars and driven many of them to 200,000 to 250,000 thousand miles with no motor or tranny repairs(and we are also talking about 1970's Lincolns and T-birds with 3 speed automatics). In fact the only motor repair I have made is to a 1982 Cadillac DeVille. It turns out it had a very poor quality foreign made 4100 engine. I presently own about 25 american cars. I could not possibly be more happy with the quality of my American vehicles.
My GE washer is 10 to 15 years old and is used daily and hasn't been repaired yet. I would buy another GE.
Saturn as a foreign car? Now that's funny!
Caddy 4100 engine . . .
If that wasn't made in the US then it must have come from Canada. Certainly not made in Europe or Asia.
Much to their detriment, GM spent many, many years (starting with the Vega) trying to make linerless aluminum engine blocks as cheap as iron blocks. It could be done, just not with any level of reliability. This was after mothballing the well engineered and reliable Buick 215 aluminum V8 in '64 because it cost too much to build. That engine had iron liners in the aluminum block.
Of course, we all know the story of Rover buying the Buick design and tooling and having it back in production by '68 in Britain. It eventually became the Range Rover engine for 20+ years and famous for being the most reliable part of a Range Rover. During the same era GM was paying millions in warranty costs to fix dead Vegas (in the '70s) and Caddies (in the '80s) because their engines didn't last. Meanwhile, both Porsche and Mercedes developed good, reliable linerless engines proving that it could be done, just not on the cheap.
It's so sad that after having pioneered many, many advances and general good quality in mass produced consumer goods from the '20s throught the '60s, American companies started chasing the lowest common denominator in the '70s and beyond.
Who wants to bet that a washer with a Franklin transmission is cheaper to make than either a Westinghouse front loader or a Frigidaire thumper?
If that wasn't made in the US then it must have come from Canada. Certainly not made in Europe or Asia.
Much to their detriment, GM spent many, many years (starting with the Vega) trying to make linerless aluminum engine blocks as cheap as iron blocks. It could be done, just not with any level of reliability. This was after mothballing the well engineered and reliable Buick 215 aluminum V8 in '64 because it cost too much to build. That engine had iron liners in the aluminum block.
Of course, we all know the story of Rover buying the Buick design and tooling and having it back in production by '68 in Britain. It eventually became the Range Rover engine for 20+ years and famous for being the most reliable part of a Range Rover. During the same era GM was paying millions in warranty costs to fix dead Vegas (in the '70s) and Caddies (in the '80s) because their engines didn't last. Meanwhile, both Porsche and Mercedes developed good, reliable linerless engines proving that it could be done, just not on the cheap.
It's so sad that after having pioneered many, many advances and general good quality in mass produced consumer goods from the '20s throught the '60s, American companies started chasing the lowest common denominator in the '70s and beyond.
Who wants to bet that a washer with a Franklin transmission is cheaper to make than either a Westinghouse front loader or a Frigidaire thumper?
Believe the 4100 engine came from Bedford, Indiana.
Reynolds Aluminum shares some blame for overpromising on the Vega engine. They sold GM a bill of goods...
Reynolds Aluminum shares some blame for overpromising on the Vega engine. They sold GM a bill of goods...
arrrooohhh
Well-known member
A japanese washing machine from the 1970's
Here is one. This is a National from the mid 70's. It was sold in Australia as a Westinghouse and sold in a fair few numbers. In the late 70's and early 80's Hitachi and Sanyo washing machines were popular too. They are small though, obviously made to be installed in Japanese bathrooms. Twin tubs were popular in Japan for a long time too.
Here is one. This is a National from the mid 70's. It was sold in Australia as a Westinghouse and sold in a fair few numbers. In the late 70's and early 80's Hitachi and Sanyo washing machines were popular too. They are small though, obviously made to be installed in Japanese bathrooms. Twin tubs were popular in Japan for a long time too.
arrrooohhh
Well-known member
And here is a Toshiba too.
From the late 70's.
From the late 70's.
arrrooohhh
Well-known member
And here is a Sanyo.
And whilst I understand the need for pride in ones own manufacturing capacity be glad that many things are still made in the US. Australias only washing machine factory in Adelaide will be closed in a few months. Big companies are not interested in the expense of running a factory in our small and remote country.
And whilst I understand the need for pride in ones own manufacturing capacity be glad that many things are still made in the US. Australias only washing machine factory in Adelaide will be closed in a few months. Big companies are not interested in the expense of running a factory in our small and remote country.
Engine trouble???
I worked at the Cadillac dealer in the early 1980's We replaced the 4100 engine in some new Cadillacs with as little as 4,000 miles on them. Customers were NOT happy, even though the parts and labour were covered by the warrentee. Every one of the cars built from 1982 to 1986 came back for major engine repairs/replacement sooner or later. Many Cadillac customers purchased other brands because of their car problems with these models, and some NEVER did come back.
(me in the suit, btw)
I worked at the Cadillac dealer in the early 1980's We replaced the 4100 engine in some new Cadillacs with as little as 4,000 miles on them. Customers were NOT happy, even though the parts and labour were covered by the warrentee. Every one of the cars built from 1982 to 1986 came back for major engine repairs/replacement sooner or later. Many Cadillac customers purchased other brands because of their car problems with these models, and some NEVER did come back.
(me in the suit, btw)
andrewinorlando
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- 1,392
There is a very fundamental difference in the way a japanese or european company does business versus the way american companies do business. In America, the underlying theme of business is on return on investment to the shareholders. In Japan and Europe, that is a minor concern. Emphasis is on product development and quality, not squeezing every nickel till the buffalo shits. That's a distinctly American business model. Not that it's always necessarily bad, but it does allow bean counters to make decision on design and engineering that they have no business making. So, there is a reason that Honda, Nissan and Toyota continue to come in tops in Quality Surveys. I too have a Buick...a 1998. It has 125,000 miles on it, and although it has been very well cared for, it's the biggest piece of shit to come out of Detroit (or, in it's case, Canada), since the infamous Cadillac V8-6-4 engine! Quality-wise, it's not even in the same ballpark with my previous Acura Legend. And I'll never buy another one again. Same for the last 3 GM cars I've owned - SHIT! Thank God for extended warranties.
surgilator1
Well-known member
I have to admit that i,m fed up american made cars too! a 84 cadilac seville with engine problems, a chrysler new yorker with every electrical problem known to man, and a 91 lincoln continental with so many air suspension problems it was a friggin cruel joke.. i'm not going to even mention the incredible depriciation that i had to endure and could not afford. needless to say i now drive a infiniti Q45 and just love it with no compromises. I gave a A-1 attempt at owning american and finally just couldn't take the expense and unreliability any more.
its harddddddddddd to zip my ummmmm lip
Thanks aaaaroooh for the cool pics those are some small machines!Asfar as the "other" posts..yes the 4100 was a bad engine but once again it pioneered many other things later on as for the lincoln air suspension..probably not the greatest thing either but noone else has ever tried it! it was cool in its day ..when it worked. So now..youll buy an acura..which is basically a overpriced Honda years and years later...with no air suspension .. The biggest mistakes back in the 80"s was this some of the products just werent ready yet but the automakers scrambled to do something! btw Todays Lincolns are some of the Highest rated vehicles..according to JD Powers
Thanks aaaaroooh for the cool pics those are some small machines!Asfar as the "other" posts..yes the 4100 was a bad engine but once again it pioneered many other things later on as for the lincoln air suspension..probably not the greatest thing either but noone else has ever tried it! it was cool in its day ..when it worked. So now..youll buy an acura..which is basically a overpriced Honda years and years later...with no air suspension .. The biggest mistakes back in the 80"s was this some of the products just werent ready yet but the automakers scrambled to do something! btw Todays Lincolns are some of the Highest rated vehicles..according to JD Powers
panthera
Well-known member
Actually,
Europeans are very profit oriented. The ROI in Germany is higher than in the US, and has been historically, not just right now.
The difference is, I think, in the mentality. Until the post-WWII era, Americans were very much of the "mend it, fix it, make it work or do without" mentality. This shows in so very many high quality products which we love in our club.
In the post war era, very slowly at first, but like any untreated cancer, spreading faster and ever faster, the concept of built-in obsolescence took root. Manufacturers and marketing succeeded in convincing consumers that it is 'normal' for durable goods to only last a few years.
I know that there is a real sense of anger and frustration about 'foreign made' goods in the US. The problem is, however, not us nasty foreigners selling you higher quality goods at lower prices. The problem is the way Americans let their companies outsource to slave labor markets. The problem is the way American companies stopped creating value in the US. The problem is the technical, sorry, but there is no other way to say it - the technical backwardness of so many US industries compared to the rest of the world. The problem is, as GM has so poignantly stated before Congress, while folks worry that universal health insurance is socialism, American companies are going bankrupt trying to carry this responsibility on their own shoulders while competing against us nasty foreigners who can produce cars of equal or better quality for less because our society spends less on health care...
OK, time to stop before this turns into a rant. I started this post mentioning that we are very profit oriented in Europe. We are. Universal health care is cheaper and better for business and workers than endless debates. Our students don't have free college here, but anyone who has the ability and desire to study is encouraged and industry together with society finds a way for them to. America has to import scientists and engineers because education is only for the very wealthy in the US.
Sure, we are also suffering from the young-dynamic-manager 'screw the shareholders, screw the workers, screw the customers' mentality. But there is a basic consensus here that profit is good and the way to make profit is to have a good product, made by middle class workers who have the security to spend their money on domestic goods.
As long as folks in the US suffer from knee-jerk 'but that is socialism!' mentality, American workers and consumers are going to continue to suffer.
There is no lack of brains, courage and skill in the US. But there is a genuine lack of support for both investors (see our higer ROI) and workers (no health care, no affordable education). High quality goods won't return until people wake up and take a good, hard look at why us nasty Europeans are winning the capitalist sweepstakes.
The basis of capitalism is pragmatism. Americans were once the pragmatists of the world. Now, every idea which works elsewhere is rejected as 'socialist' or not conservative or Christian.
Well, off me soapbox. My US made clock (1924) just chimed the quarter hour and I have to get going. Such poor quality, she loses nearly half a minute a month.
Sheesh...
http://study
Europeans are very profit oriented. The ROI in Germany is higher than in the US, and has been historically, not just right now.
The difference is, I think, in the mentality. Until the post-WWII era, Americans were very much of the "mend it, fix it, make it work or do without" mentality. This shows in so very many high quality products which we love in our club.
In the post war era, very slowly at first, but like any untreated cancer, spreading faster and ever faster, the concept of built-in obsolescence took root. Manufacturers and marketing succeeded in convincing consumers that it is 'normal' for durable goods to only last a few years.
I know that there is a real sense of anger and frustration about 'foreign made' goods in the US. The problem is, however, not us nasty foreigners selling you higher quality goods at lower prices. The problem is the way Americans let their companies outsource to slave labor markets. The problem is the way American companies stopped creating value in the US. The problem is the technical, sorry, but there is no other way to say it - the technical backwardness of so many US industries compared to the rest of the world. The problem is, as GM has so poignantly stated before Congress, while folks worry that universal health insurance is socialism, American companies are going bankrupt trying to carry this responsibility on their own shoulders while competing against us nasty foreigners who can produce cars of equal or better quality for less because our society spends less on health care...
OK, time to stop before this turns into a rant. I started this post mentioning that we are very profit oriented in Europe. We are. Universal health care is cheaper and better for business and workers than endless debates. Our students don't have free college here, but anyone who has the ability and desire to study is encouraged and industry together with society finds a way for them to. America has to import scientists and engineers because education is only for the very wealthy in the US.
Sure, we are also suffering from the young-dynamic-manager 'screw the shareholders, screw the workers, screw the customers' mentality. But there is a basic consensus here that profit is good and the way to make profit is to have a good product, made by middle class workers who have the security to spend their money on domestic goods.
As long as folks in the US suffer from knee-jerk 'but that is socialism!' mentality, American workers and consumers are going to continue to suffer.
There is no lack of brains, courage and skill in the US. But there is a genuine lack of support for both investors (see our higer ROI) and workers (no health care, no affordable education). High quality goods won't return until people wake up and take a good, hard look at why us nasty Europeans are winning the capitalist sweepstakes.
The basis of capitalism is pragmatism. Americans were once the pragmatists of the world. Now, every idea which works elsewhere is rejected as 'socialist' or not conservative or Christian.
Well, off me soapbox. My US made clock (1924) just chimed the quarter hour and I have to get going. Such poor quality, she loses nearly half a minute a month.
Sheesh...
http://study
thirtyater
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
- Messages
- 205
4100......
I don't actually know where the 4100 was made. The Cadillac dealer just told me it was foreign made. They may have been to ashamed to tell me it was USA made.
There was a 4100 and a 4.1. I believe mine was the 4100 and the 4.1 was a much better engine. I had the heads rebuilt and a valve job at 40,000 miles then sold it to dad. They they kept it for years and totally rebuilt it at around 100,000 miles and soon after gave it back to me. It is a garage queen and is very mint but no dealer around here would take it on trade with that engine, even with a fresh rebuild so they gave it back to me for the collection. (Yay!)
I don't actually know where the 4100 was made. The Cadillac dealer just told me it was foreign made. They may have been to ashamed to tell me it was USA made.
There was a 4100 and a 4.1. I believe mine was the 4100 and the 4.1 was a much better engine. I had the heads rebuilt and a valve job at 40,000 miles then sold it to dad. They they kept it for years and totally rebuilt it at around 100,000 miles and soon after gave it back to me. It is a garage queen and is very mint but no dealer around here would take it on trade with that engine, even with a fresh rebuild so they gave it back to me for the collection. (Yay!)
Ok enough is enough
I never intended for this thread to run this long in this part of the Forum Sorry Robert not my intentions. If it needs to be moved elsewhere I totally understand! To me it was a fun washday! And yes I got my Jabs in too lol. But its time to let it rest! NOW ! If someone wants to open it up in the other "Forum" I'm sure I'LL put my two cents worth here and there. But Come on Guys Lets see some washer Pics and Posts We know you have them! Show us your stuff! Tell us why you like the machines and why you own it or..your problems with the machines Lets get back to the subject at hand!
I never intended for this thread to run this long in this part of the Forum Sorry Robert not my intentions. If it needs to be moved elsewhere I totally understand! To me it was a fun washday! And yes I got my Jabs in too lol. But its time to let it rest! NOW ! If someone wants to open it up in the other "Forum" I'm sure I'LL put my two cents worth here and there. But Come on Guys Lets see some washer Pics and Posts We know you have them! Show us your stuff! Tell us why you like the machines and why you own it or..your problems with the machines Lets get back to the subject at hand!
...and don't forget about trade tarriffs
Tariffs get a bum rap. Up until the Civil War, they funded the entire government, and up until the WWII era, they funded a huge chunk of the government.
All a tarriff said was that you are welcome to import something to the US, you just have to pay for the privilege. And it was applied industry by industry, so you could protect some more than others. Hence it could also be used as a club to get some industries to fall in line.
I'm not anti-trade, but I am for a fair and level playing field. The idea should be to raise the standard of living and quality of products for everyone.
Tariffs get a bum rap. Up until the Civil War, they funded the entire government, and up until the WWII era, they funded a huge chunk of the government.
All a tarriff said was that you are welcome to import something to the US, you just have to pay for the privilege. And it was applied industry by industry, so you could protect some more than others. Hence it could also be used as a club to get some industries to fall in line.
I'm not anti-trade, but I am for a fair and level playing field. The idea should be to raise the standard of living and quality of products for everyone.
In regard to tariffs...
I have two words for you: "Smoot" and "Hawley".
And one other thing:
"America has to import scientists and engineers because education is only for the very wealthy in the US."
Okay, the other points that panthera made can be argued, but this one is absolute, utter BS. Yes, it costs a lot of money to go to Harvard... but you can get a damn fine education in the U.S. without going to Harvard! I paid my own way through a state school with a highly-regarded computer science program. Yes, money was tight at times, but I survived, and I didn't graduate with crushing student-load debt (I had some, but I've loooong since paid it off). And now I'm a senior-level engineer with a top aerospace company. And anyway, if you look at a lot of what goes on at Harvard these days, I'd say the place is overrated.
At least we don't have the government deciding which students will and won't be allowed to go to school, like France does.
I have two words for you: "Smoot" and "Hawley".
And one other thing:
"America has to import scientists and engineers because education is only for the very wealthy in the US."
Okay, the other points that panthera made can be argued, but this one is absolute, utter BS. Yes, it costs a lot of money to go to Harvard... but you can get a damn fine education in the U.S. without going to Harvard! I paid my own way through a state school with a highly-regarded computer science program. Yes, money was tight at times, but I survived, and I didn't graduate with crushing student-load debt (I had some, but I've loooong since paid it off). And now I'm a senior-level engineer with a top aerospace company. And anyway, if you look at a lot of what goes on at Harvard these days, I'd say the place is overrated.
At least we don't have the government deciding which students will and won't be allowed to go to school, like France does.
panthera
Well-known member
Sorry, fa f3 20,
I grew up in the US, did my first degree in the US and, yes, my family and I paid for it. Both my parents sacrificed a lot to put me through school and I worked full time, studied full time and paid back some of my student loans teaching in Brooklyn. It was not much fun having body guards escort us to and from our classrooms, but even at 6'2" and way too 'butch' to fcuk with, my students knew I was just as well armed as they were...and they knew I wasn't paid enough to put up with any shit. I daresay that gives me the right to take issue with your statements.
Teaching at a technical university here in Munich, I have the opportunity both to speak to the young American students who study abroad as well as to my colleagues and industry representatives in the US.
I can only assume you are unaware of of the situation for college students in the US currently.
Although real incomes have *fallen* since my graduation in 1982, tuition at my state university (a quite good one but not Ivy League) has gone up by a factor of 10. It is by no means one of the more expensive universities for engineering.
It is nice to be all patriotic and pretend that things are just fine and dandy, but maybe you should sit down and take a look at how things really are for the average American right now and not for people of privilege.
Germany, by the way, does not tell students what they have to study, we simply recognize that by educating our young people to their full potential we are in a better position to make a profit.
I grew up in the US, did my first degree in the US and, yes, my family and I paid for it. Both my parents sacrificed a lot to put me through school and I worked full time, studied full time and paid back some of my student loans teaching in Brooklyn. It was not much fun having body guards escort us to and from our classrooms, but even at 6'2" and way too 'butch' to fcuk with, my students knew I was just as well armed as they were...and they knew I wasn't paid enough to put up with any shit. I daresay that gives me the right to take issue with your statements.
Teaching at a technical university here in Munich, I have the opportunity both to speak to the young American students who study abroad as well as to my colleagues and industry representatives in the US.
I can only assume you are unaware of of the situation for college students in the US currently.
Although real incomes have *fallen* since my graduation in 1982, tuition at my state university (a quite good one but not Ivy League) has gone up by a factor of 10. It is by no means one of the more expensive universities for engineering.
It is nice to be all patriotic and pretend that things are just fine and dandy, but maybe you should sit down and take a look at how things really are for the average American right now and not for people of privilege.
Germany, by the way, does not tell students what they have to study, we simply recognize that by educating our young people to their full potential we are in a better position to make a profit.
panthera
Well-known member
Probably,
That was a bit over the top, I do apologize. Most teachers are defensive when it comes to their students. Still, I am sorry for being rude.
Education is just about the only true advantage a country can have in the 21st century, and it saddens me to see the way things are going in the US these days.
That was a bit over the top, I do apologize. Most teachers are defensive when it comes to their students. Still, I am sorry for being rude.
Education is just about the only true advantage a country can have in the 21st century, and it saddens me to see the way things are going in the US these days.
Panthera,
What you said was harsh, but you were also on the right track i think.
I am halfway through grad school at NIU...the school that just had the 2nd campus shooting here.
I think anyone who doesn't see that the U.S. in some sort of tailspin, mild or severe, is ignorant.
Our currency is falling, prices of everything's going up. Our health care is a laughing stock, our manufacturing base is drying up like a puddle in the Sahara.
I have a buddy who has also lived in Germany, Italy and Russia. And the things you said, he has also said.
The E.U. in general strives to be self sufficient and innovative for the common good of its whole society, in general of course.
The U.S. clearly does NOT do that. It is very much a dog eat dog world here. Some of us are doing fine, an ever increasing amount of us are NOT doing so well right now.
I've said this to alot of friends my age group, and they generally agree (Born in the early 80's) that we will be the first generation (with others following) that will NOT have it better than our parents.
Think about that. Think about the American dream.
Something's wrong.
And I don't think we have the intellect or the leadership to currently fix it.
This country is f*&^#d if it doesn't wake up soon.
BTW, I HOPE I am proven very wrong.
What you said was harsh, but you were also on the right track i think.
I am halfway through grad school at NIU...the school that just had the 2nd campus shooting here.
I think anyone who doesn't see that the U.S. in some sort of tailspin, mild or severe, is ignorant.
Our currency is falling, prices of everything's going up. Our health care is a laughing stock, our manufacturing base is drying up like a puddle in the Sahara.
I have a buddy who has also lived in Germany, Italy and Russia. And the things you said, he has also said.
The E.U. in general strives to be self sufficient and innovative for the common good of its whole society, in general of course.
The U.S. clearly does NOT do that. It is very much a dog eat dog world here. Some of us are doing fine, an ever increasing amount of us are NOT doing so well right now.
I've said this to alot of friends my age group, and they generally agree (Born in the early 80's) that we will be the first generation (with others following) that will NOT have it better than our parents.
Think about that. Think about the American dream.
Something's wrong.
And I don't think we have the intellect or the leadership to currently fix it.
This country is f*&^#d if it doesn't wake up soon.
BTW, I HOPE I am proven very wrong.
andrewinorlando
Well-known member
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- Oct 18, 2004
- Messages
- 1,392
Keven,
What you say has some element of truth to it, for sure, but, there are plenty of state universities here that are very affordable, excellent quality schools. Private schools are not always worth their overpriced tuition, and many students here in Florida have found that they get excellent educations at Florida State schools, even starting their fist two years at Community Colleges if they can't make the grade to get into the state schools, which then guarantee admission to the state university of their choice. Florida State Law School at Gainesville is still just around $9,000 - $10,000 a year, and it's a very reputable school.
True, some private schools are very overrated, but if you're a smart kid, and can make the grade and get admitted, you can still get a free education at Yale. There is no tuition charged at Yale...it's free. Of course, they only accept about 1600 students per year, but you don't need to necessarily be rich, just smart. I certainly wasn't rich by any stretch of the imagination when I graduated high school in 1981, we were barely getting by, and I was accepted to Yale, but chose to stay close to home and didn't accept (I know...STUPID!) So there are options, but I think before we even get to the college/university discussion, we really need to look at what's happening at public junior high and high schools. Now some of that is truly scary!
Good points though.....
What you say has some element of truth to it, for sure, but, there are plenty of state universities here that are very affordable, excellent quality schools. Private schools are not always worth their overpriced tuition, and many students here in Florida have found that they get excellent educations at Florida State schools, even starting their fist two years at Community Colleges if they can't make the grade to get into the state schools, which then guarantee admission to the state university of their choice. Florida State Law School at Gainesville is still just around $9,000 - $10,000 a year, and it's a very reputable school.
True, some private schools are very overrated, but if you're a smart kid, and can make the grade and get admitted, you can still get a free education at Yale. There is no tuition charged at Yale...it's free. Of course, they only accept about 1600 students per year, but you don't need to necessarily be rich, just smart. I certainly wasn't rich by any stretch of the imagination when I graduated high school in 1981, we were barely getting by, and I was accepted to Yale, but chose to stay close to home and didn't accept (I know...STUPID!) So there are options, but I think before we even get to the college/university discussion, we really need to look at what's happening at public junior high and high schools. Now some of that is truly scary!
Good points though.....
When I started at the U of Iowa back in '83, tuition was $645 per semester. I could make a year's tuition working in the File room at Mutual of Omaha during the summer, and Mom & Dad paid my rent. When I left, I think it was $750. Now it's $3200 a semester, and I don't think Mutual even HAS a file room anymore, lol.
Granted, Iowa is no Ivy League, but it's a good, no-nonsense Big Ten school.
Granted, Iowa is no Ivy League, but it's a good, no-nonsense Big Ten school.
better than our parents?
I hear the comment all the time of 'we are the first generation not to do better than our parents.'
Well, John, I daresay I'm about 20 years older than you, having been born in the middle sixties. Here is my spin on it:
The boomer generation, as a whole though not in all specifics, have spent their lives spending money they did not have. Is a 'millenial' worse off than his or her parents? Or will he be? I don't know. What does it mean to "own" a 400,000 dollar house, when you have less than 10% equity in it, because you continuously refinance to support a lifestyle of consumption? What does it mean to have NOTHING saved for retirement, when you are in your fifties or older? Is this 'well off'?
It was the boomer generation who gave us leveraged buyouts, pension fund raids, and the like. Their money has gone into consumption, not investment and wealth building.
We have SERIOUS issues in the USA right now. But I do not believe that it has always been rosy and is now crappy. Consider: One thing that made houses affordable in the 1950s was rising productivity of workers, and the selling of unfinished 'cape cod' style houses. How many newly built houses are 1200 square feet and have one bathroom?
I live in a ranch house built in 1962. It now has a finished basement (probably finished sometime in the seventies or eighties) and it now has two bathrooms. But I'm sure that the original house had one bathroom for the first twenty years or so of its life.
Part of the problem we have in America is that it is no longer possible to live the kinds of lives our parents lived in some instances because the choices they made aren't makable any longer.
I don't know how people afford their educations anymore. I worked my way through school about the time you were born and it was tough, very tough. It is harder now. Of course, I also think you have to ask "how many people do college on the cheap?" Go to a community college for your lower division courses, and transfer to a better named school for your junior/senior year. I did this. I got out of college owing -- wait for it! $600 in student loan debt. It *IS* true there was more financial aid then then now. But -- if the baby boomers are having trouble paying to put their kids through school, why isn't there clamoring for schools to be more efficient with their money? To have more endowments for lower income people? I don't know why there isn't more recognition of this UNLESS consumers of the education system (parents, mostly, because they pay for it) WANT education to be expensive to keep the 'riff raff' out.
It is my opinion - and folks, please don't flame me for my opinion - that an awful lot of the unbelievable fall in the standards of living of so many has come from a number of factors: Over consumption to start with (buying on credit means you don't 'own' the thing); fall in income may be related to lack of desire to improve your lot in life (as a nation rises up the food chain you MUST be better educated to succeed); and other out of control things that can happen (an uncovered large medical expense can EASILY bankrupt you).
Unfortunately, medical expsnses ae one of those things that we have little control over. I would like to know, however, how much of the percentage of cost of health insurance and health care comes from things like medications that are to correct problems that lifestyle changes could cure, or whether in other countries folks simply 'live with it.' (Irritable bowel syndrome, for example, can be a misdiagnosis of celiac sprue, Crohn's disease, or sedentary habits, but large numbers of expensive medications are sold to 'cure' it).
Nothing is easy, nothing is free....tanstaafl!
Nate
I hear the comment all the time of 'we are the first generation not to do better than our parents.'
Well, John, I daresay I'm about 20 years older than you, having been born in the middle sixties. Here is my spin on it:
The boomer generation, as a whole though not in all specifics, have spent their lives spending money they did not have. Is a 'millenial' worse off than his or her parents? Or will he be? I don't know. What does it mean to "own" a 400,000 dollar house, when you have less than 10% equity in it, because you continuously refinance to support a lifestyle of consumption? What does it mean to have NOTHING saved for retirement, when you are in your fifties or older? Is this 'well off'?
It was the boomer generation who gave us leveraged buyouts, pension fund raids, and the like. Their money has gone into consumption, not investment and wealth building.
We have SERIOUS issues in the USA right now. But I do not believe that it has always been rosy and is now crappy. Consider: One thing that made houses affordable in the 1950s was rising productivity of workers, and the selling of unfinished 'cape cod' style houses. How many newly built houses are 1200 square feet and have one bathroom?
I live in a ranch house built in 1962. It now has a finished basement (probably finished sometime in the seventies or eighties) and it now has two bathrooms. But I'm sure that the original house had one bathroom for the first twenty years or so of its life.
Part of the problem we have in America is that it is no longer possible to live the kinds of lives our parents lived in some instances because the choices they made aren't makable any longer.
I don't know how people afford their educations anymore. I worked my way through school about the time you were born and it was tough, very tough. It is harder now. Of course, I also think you have to ask "how many people do college on the cheap?" Go to a community college for your lower division courses, and transfer to a better named school for your junior/senior year. I did this. I got out of college owing -- wait for it! $600 in student loan debt. It *IS* true there was more financial aid then then now. But -- if the baby boomers are having trouble paying to put their kids through school, why isn't there clamoring for schools to be more efficient with their money? To have more endowments for lower income people? I don't know why there isn't more recognition of this UNLESS consumers of the education system (parents, mostly, because they pay for it) WANT education to be expensive to keep the 'riff raff' out.
It is my opinion - and folks, please don't flame me for my opinion - that an awful lot of the unbelievable fall in the standards of living of so many has come from a number of factors: Over consumption to start with (buying on credit means you don't 'own' the thing); fall in income may be related to lack of desire to improve your lot in life (as a nation rises up the food chain you MUST be better educated to succeed); and other out of control things that can happen (an uncovered large medical expense can EASILY bankrupt you).
Unfortunately, medical expsnses ae one of those things that we have little control over. I would like to know, however, how much of the percentage of cost of health insurance and health care comes from things like medications that are to correct problems that lifestyle changes could cure, or whether in other countries folks simply 'live with it.' (Irritable bowel syndrome, for example, can be a misdiagnosis of celiac sprue, Crohn's disease, or sedentary habits, but large numbers of expensive medications are sold to 'cure' it).
Nothing is easy, nothing is free....tanstaafl!
Nate
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