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Basically yes, that's where dew point comes into play. In order to dehumidify, the coils need to be below the dew point temperature of the air crossing them. Ideally somewhere in the low 40s so the dew point inside can be pulled down to 50 degrees or below that to achieve a comfortable humidity level indoors. It's the same basic principle as a glass of ice water on a hot summer day vs a cold winter day.

The thermostat for my upper level system has a "dehumidify" mode that sends a signal to the board in the furnace (the furnace must support this) and slows the blower down a certain percentage to decrease the coil temperature and dehumidify the air faster without having to run the system a whole lot. Normally the outlet temp is around 48-52 depending on how hot the attic is, with dehumidify mode on that drops to anywhere in the range of 35-40 degrees. The indoor dew point is usually around 48-50 degrees here so think about that. (The outlet temp is slightly warmer then the coils naturally)

I hope I didn't complicate that too much.
 
Chillers...

The problem we had at the hi-ris I worked at on Miami Beach was management. Insisting the temperature of the water be no lower than 50* It wasn't low enough to dehumidify the ocean air. Over the weekends, maintenance would bump it down to 42* and it made a world of difference. Until a resident complained the ac only worked well over the weekend, I got busted.

But what did I know? I was just the havc tech on 2nd shift.

Malcolm
 
Fox Theater Atlanta

I did the behind the scenes tour at the Fox Theater in Atlanta yesterday and they took us to the old "swamp chiller" area that in 1929 (until recently according to the docent) cooled this Atlanta landmark. As many times as I had taken that tour and been to this theater, I never knew this. I did read on the timeline that an AC company had augmented the system somehow, back in the 1960s or so to make it cooler. I am not to aware of that technology (even the swamp cooler) but it was interesting to know that the system was from the late 1920s and still was working up until recently....
 
No, I was able to follow your explanation. So I guess the next move is to determine the temp of the inflow and outflow.  I'll have to tape the sensor onto the pipe and then wrap it in cloth so ambient air temp doesn't affect the reading. The cloth will eventually get wet and cause evaporative cooling, but the 5 minutes it'll take wouldn't be long enough to worry about that, right? 

 

Hmmmm...... while I'm doing that maybe it'd be a good idea to check the squirrel cages. I might find a C.F.M. rating on the plate. 

 

Dammit! I need to do the same for the bedroom unit, don't I? If I don't, how would I know if there's a difference with the living room unit? Also, I confess I'm curious about the two very different humidity levels. I measured both units the same way so the results should have been similar, albeit in error in both cases.

 

Both units and 30 pt. dehumidifier  were running all night. Gizmo currently reads 70F and 57%.

 

Thanks,

 

Jim
 
Sorry, Guys...

Life has kept me busy but I finally measured the pipe temps. I taped the sensor to the pipe and wrapped it in a hand towel. I then let it sit for about 10 minutes with the fan on low. Readings were no more than 0.2F different between the 2 units: 53.5F for the inlet and 56.5 for the outlet.

 

Several times I was away for an overnight or two and left both units running. I left the dehumidifier off. I came back to temps of 70-72F and humidity of 59-61. With the dehumidifier on I get humidity readings a few points lower, but never less than 57%

 

What do you think of the inlet/outlet temps? Is a drop of 3 degrees normal?

 

Thanks,

 

Jim
 
Sounds like if they just cranked the loop temp down to 40-42 all your problems would go away. There's no good reason to keep it at 50-53, just way too warm.
 
There is a reason to keep it that warm

Its called energy conservation. If building management feels that temps can be controlled to a comfortable level at 50-56 degrees, then that is what it is set at. They have to control the electrical usage. They are responsible for the electric bill for the building. The more they save the more they make. They don't care about humidity factor just cooling. I know the building I live in, the electric bill is the largest expense and the gas bill coming in second. We are talking over $100,000.00 for electricity and the same for gas.

Jon
 
Thanks, All!

ALL utilities are included in the maintenance fee. I guess that's why the water temps are that high. I have to admit that if one is concerned only about temperature, the 53F input is more than cool enough.

 

Well, I guess the only thing to do is to get another de-humidifier. Well, what do you know? I've just ordered another one. That'll make a total capacity of 60 pts. per 24 hours. Maybe with that I'll see 55%?

 

Jim
 
I understand the need to conserve energy but humidity control IS part of cooling! You can't have cooling without controlling moisture! Also without controlling moisture you invite mold and god knows what else to start growing.

Anyone maintaining a chilled water system needs to understand that the loop temp can't be above 50 degrees in cooling mode no matter what. Once it is above that, the latent capacity of the system is effectively zilch, leaving only sensible cooling capacity in turn making a moldy clammy mess indoors.

Also keep in mind when the air is dryer it tends to feel cooler, as it is now I bet the electric bills aren't any better with the loop temp so warm then it would be if it were set properly, as people will be less inclined to leave the fan/coils running as much since it will feel so much more comfortable at a warmer temp as the air would be much dryer.
 
I know that in the building I live in, it breathes a lot. There is a large amount of air that exchanges itself constantly, which contributes to higher humidity. I need to do some sealing and caulking around the pipes under the kitchen sink. Large cutouts for the drain and water lines. I have gaps 3 or 4 inches around all the pipes. Its amazing how much air comes through them. Then there is the issue of the gap under the front door and the space all around the door. There is a faint whistle sometime from the air going in or out. They don't make buildings like this as tight as a single family stand alone house, esp since all the hallways are heated and a/c. This I believe is the reason why your dehumidifiers are not drying out your place as expected. Your trying to do your whole building. Check around and see what you find in these areas and see if you can seal them up. I know on windy days the exhaust fans in both bathrooms seem like they are on but they are not. There is a massive exhaust fan on the roof that keeps air moving when they are not on. I can open the dryer on windy days and It feels like the blower is running there is so much air movement within the unit. All this adds to a great change of air in my house. Sometimes we have to just accept the fact that this is the way it is, and not much can be done about it. If sleeping in a humid environment is the issue, possibly you can close your bedroom door with a dehumidifier running and it may lower it more in just one room, if you can tolerate the noise. Hope this helps bring some light in your situation. Oh another incident we have, we don't have a double air lock where our elevators are located. If someone jacks open 1 of the outside doors to unload or load things into the elevator, it will stop the elevators because of all the air pressure rushing up or down the elevator shafts. So if it can stop them you can see the amount of air entering the building.

Jon
 
While people view drafty houses as undesireable, the suggestion is that our homes have air that is 20,000x more polluted than the outside air (but you know, 20K x Next to Nothing, is still, Next to Nothing. So it could be a moot point).

Point is, having that extra air movement is very beneficial. I don't know whether I want Old Mrs. Winkle's fowl odours of yesteryear in my apartment, nor Uncle Lewis' cigar smoke in there either.
(That was meant as sarcastic, but you get the point).

I stayed in a hotel recently with what was/is an ancient chilled water (and probably heating) system. So much so the thermostat had about a 1/2 turn of dead-zone before it actually did anything (stripped threads), and the settings were anywhere between "Cold - NORMAL - Hot," with Low or High fan speed (which made a relay clunk, but no change in airflow).
It could cool the room reasonably, given the OAT at the time was in the mid-20s, at best. It got positively cool in there at night.

However, I stayed there during the Summer for just one night, on the top floor. The unit was retrofitted with a "real" thermostat. It indicated the room temperature was about 25ºC (77ºF). I cranked it as cold as possible for the night, and it didn't budge one bit. The room was still warm, and stuffy. Air vent was cool, but not icey cold. Difference was the lobby had their system running, so I suspect a large amount of capacity was "zapped" by this running. Looking at the hotel reviews, it *seems* to be a common complaint the system isn't quite up to snuff. Thats a hotel from the (and stuck in) the 1970s for you...

My limited experience here suggests that if the system is running flat-tack trying to keep the whole complex cool, it could just be the water warms up considerably by the time it reaches you, or its undersized and not coping with the load.

Does the system perform any better during cooler, but still relatively humid weather? If your water temperatures decrease, you might have your answer -> An old, ailing system thats overtaxed for its job.

As others suggested, it could be that the system is being run in an "energy-efficient" mode, at the cost of system effectiveness, and that most of this post is invalidated.

If you can, my only other suggestion is running *just one* unit, maybe on high, as it could be you've just got too much capacity going. Again, only a suggestion, and I figure it probably isn't relevant. Worth a shot, if you haven't already tried...
 
Just a note to say this morning it is cloudy and raining here. Very high humidity. A/C is set to 68 degrees. Humidity inside is 48 percent. This is without the dehumidifier running. So I guess even as the circulation water temps in the 50's the system still dehumidifies adequately. So I would gather to say that it might look like that the situation is air infiltration into your living space that is causing your high readings. I am on the north shore of Boston and right on the ocean. Doesn't get much more damp than this outside.
Jon
 
Good points, all.

 

There is both heating AND cooling overcapacity, no doubt. I usually leave the living room unit running 24/7 and turn bedroom unit on only when needed. The only control I have is the fan switch. I've noticed no difference in temps (by feel) in the pipes regardless of whether the fan is on or off. This applies to both heat and a/c modes. Therefore I'm pretty confident the water circulates 24/7 regardless of whether I have the fan on or off. I.e. the fan switch isn't connected to a valve.

 

Yes, air infiltration is jaw dropping. I understand why the owner left them untouched given the units are clearly oversized in terms of heating. Building went up in mid 60's. Doors (balcony) and windows are new and appear weathertight themselves, it's just everything around them that leaks, especially around door frame.

 

I've taped the more major leaks and will check less obvious ones. i suspect that given the building's age, there's a limit to what can be done about air infiltration, but I don't think I've hit it yet.

 

I'm renting here so I can't do anything that'd be noticeable and permanent. I've been here just 6 months but have pretty much decided I want to buy here when my lease is up so I need to avoid any hint of being inquisitive/PITA. That said, I suspect perceived 'geekiness' would not be a problem once I've found the right people.

 

Kitchen and bath have old-fashioned vents that look like air returns. I'll take pics and post in a couple of days.

 

I KNOW I'm over-sensitive to humidity. That's why I'm kind of partial window units over central a/c. If the weather is low 80's but damp I close all the windows, and run the smallest unit 24/7. 

 

Weather has been steamy here in NYC for last several days. I was away for about 36 hours and left both units running on lowest fan speed. Dehumidifier was off. I came back to 68F and 56% humidity on gizmo and 65% on dehumidifier (10 min after I'd turned it on). I felt too cool and too clammy, lol.

 

I'll make some mods as suggested and get back to you in a couple of days.

 

Thanks,

 

Jim

   
 
So I'm staying at a hotel on the Riverwalk downtown in San Antonio, TX. It's 17 stories and they cool the guest rooms with a central chiller plant that I can see part of through some windows on the side of the building, and can see the cooling towers on the plants roof from our window, not to mention hear them...

What's funny is our top floor suite suffers from the same issue that has been discussed so much in this thread - too high of loop temperature. The in-wall fan/coil unit has to run continuously to maintain about 70-72 and never shuts off. The RH is on the high side, I'd say high 50s. The outlet air temp seems to be about 60 degrees. I'm guessing the water is in the low 50s.

The problem is, from what I can tell is not building management cheaping out on cooling but rather because we're on the top floor mixed with possibly poor engineering of the chilled water system. When I was on the third floor the air blowing out of the vents felt much cooler - to the point that condensate was dripping off the wall register.
 
@gusherb

We noticed the same thing at Kings Hotel in Perth.

On a *mild* evening, where the temperature was around 75º (Daytime was about 85ºC) our top-floor "Penthouse" (we were upgraded) struggled to get below 77º, even with the system on High Fan, and set at 65º.

Staying there again, myself, this past April, the daytimes were about 75º, and nighttime in the 60s. It managed a reasonably chilly temperature in there, so I suspected that the lobby air-conditioning loop reduced the capacity significantly, not to mention the building's existing heat load may have had an effect.

Funnily enough, a couple of the lower floors did share a large blower vent where the elevator was, but the higher floors did not. I saw into the cleaner's room where this duct runs, and it almost appeared as though the same vent serviced the bathrooms (as each one had a vent that seemed to do precisely nothing).

On the outside of the building, there was a large duct, with a big open blower unit, which I assumed would be responsible for running some of this ductwork...

Must say that older hotels are very interesting!.

Link is of photo of the type of room I personally stayed in!

 
Cool hotel room. I've always liked that kind of sleek style.

Sorry for being so uncommunicative, but the summer work schedule (just finished) plus the heat&humidity just wore me out. Sucks about the whole heart valve thing, but HOT DAMN it felt good to hear the doc tell me that all my heat-related 'issues' were NOT in my head ... as I'd been told by so many for so long.

Back to topic:

I've sealed up everything I can reach. I've bought a second dehumidifier, a 30-pint Danby Model DDR30B1GB. I got it off FleaPay brand new for $79.99. Believe it or not it's whisper quiet and fills its bucket as quickly as the roaring GE that cost me nearly double and had great reviews. Pics are attached. The GE is in the living room and the Danby in my bedroom. Both run 24/7 except when I'm out of the house longer than it takes for their buckets to fill. The chiller in the living room is always on and the bedroom unit probably 80% of the time.

I'm able to keep the temps around 70 and more importantly the humidity down to 50%. In a perfect world I'd like it a bit warmer and a bit dryer but I'm satisfied with this as my sinuses are no longer constantly swollen and I don't work up a sweat just walking around my apartment.

Air infiltration is still quite high. whenever I open the door there's a massive whoosh of air... half the time rushing in and half the time rushing out. There are 2 vents, one in the kitchen and one in the bathroom (pics attached), that have no dampers on them. I'm not sure of their function and whenever I've put my hand to them I've felt no air flow at all. These seem to be unique to buildings put up in the mid-50's to late-60's.

Thanks all for the info and suggestions. As always, I've learned a lot :-)

Jim

warmsecondrinse-2015081611245309889_1.jpg

warmsecondrinse-2015081611245309889_2.jpg

warmsecondrinse-2015081611245309889_3.jpg
 
it's smokin...

It was 117 yesterday, 118 predicted for this afternoon. I fear my American Standard air conditioners are going to explode. They're on the West side of the house, the hot side. I go out there every so often and ask them how they're doing. People talk to their plants so why not?
 
Joe

They are workhorses and they love it.

My Trane units live under my bedroom window and when the temperature gets above 97 they actually start humming a happy tune to me. They don't like it when it gets into the 70s and below (and neither do I) and they start to sound a bit raspy.
 
I had a VW Rabbit that responded to weather like that. The higher the humidity was, the rougher and louder it ran. The less said about its reliability in the rain, the better.

OTOH, as soon as the temps dropped below freezing it ran smooth as silk and nearly silent. No matter how cold it was, no matter how long it had been sitting, it started with the first nudge from the alternator. It was a great winter car - freakishly unstoppable in the snow, pumped out heat faster than any other car I had, and threshold breaking was a no-brainer as the pedal gave perfect feedback.
------------

Not sure of today's high, but it was hot and humid enough my heat loving friend said it was too much. I was told that there was nobody at the pool. I went outside briefly at around 7pm and was glad I spent the day indoors.

My American Standard air chillers with my 2 dehumidifiers kept me cool and comfy :-)

Jim
 
Cars Quiet in Below Freezing

I wonder whether the engine in that VW Rabbit of yours might've been quite harsh on the motor oil in the summer, and heated it beyond a "reasonable" motor oil temperature. Viscosity when hot is measured at 100ºC, so an oil that might be a 30 or 40 weight hot could well step down a grade. In the winter, the engine is nowhere as hot, and thus the oil remains the correct weight, thus shutting up the engine. 

 

Sounds like you have a working solution. Those air grills are probably passive ventilation slits. See if you can detect air movement with the door or window open... 

 

I noticed the same thing at the hotel; the vent in the bathroom seemed not to do anything, and actually had a louvre inside... I thought it couldn't POSSIBLY be a fresh air vent; as you wouldn't want unpleasant odors from the bathroom being blown in the room, but, being a 40 y/o building, ANYTHING is possible! 
 

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