Are New Appliances Always Doomed? Why A Grass Roots Movement Could Change Things

[henene4]

I did some quick research, and both me and my typical AI assistants are not capable to find a specific phrasing that would require manufacturers in the EU to provide cycle counters.
I am somewhat certain to have read that it is actually a requirement - either operating hour or cycle counters.

What is certain though is that in the period from 2024 to 2026 several directives and requirements for repairability, parts availability, circular economy stuff and warranty coverage have changed/will change.
Given that even some rather price orientated manufacturers have those counters now, I wouldn't be surprised it's just some way to cover some requirements under those regulations.

 

[DADoES]

My DishDrawer records the accumulated cycle count, separately for each drawer. I've not found a reference that the washers and dryers do so.

 

[michaelz08]

You seem to maintain your own clearly biased opinions and speculate on things, which you are free to do.
However, I've got decades of experience in my field of professional servicing, and you sound like you know more than me - which you are also free to do.
Also, I'm certainly not prone to paranoia as you imply.
I state the facts, I don't mince words, and I believe in stating honestly from experience what I know, what I've seen, and what others in my field have dealt with.
So you can chew on and debate all of us techs, because we've heard it all.

Biased opinions? I focused on factual points on why such an approach is either practically/technically not viable or not feasible as a method of designing products.

You have your service experience, which is credible and valuable, but are making assertions in the technical realm- with no support whatsoever to your claims- and the technical realm is my area of work.

The reason identifying marks are removed from IC chips (which has been happening since the 80's) is so that people/manufacturers can't reverse engineer the product, or do home repairs. It's also done in high end audio, so the end user doesn't realize his "audiophile" equipment uses common off the shelf chips found in mainstream brands, and is nothing special.

I'd love a link to these secret tech sites, even if we can't access them. Or is the whole site invisible?

This is absolutely correct. This has been the common practice for decades now.

What are you expecting to see if you scraped off the goop? A chip marked "APPLIANCE_DISABLER_M011 MANUFACTURED BY TSMC"?

Such a bomb would be in the CODE of the system, highly unlikely to be a dedicated chip. If you don't know that, you don't know enough to be making such a claim.

 

[phillymatt53]

Ya gotta love these so-called internet know-it-alls with their typical behavior of questioning, debating, and attempting to make others look less credible.

I could state that the sun comes up every morning, and they'd come back with "How can you be sure, if it's a cloudy day?"

Cracks me the hell up these types.

 

[simpsomatic]

Ya gotta love these so-called internet know-it-alls with their typical behavior of questioning, debating, and attempting to make others look less credible.

I could state that the sun comes up every morning, and they'd come back with "How can you be sure, if it's a cloudy day?"

Cracks me the hell up these types.

You don't realize you are describing yourself., again.......

 

[phillymatt53]

You don't realize you are describing yourself., again.......

LOL!

 

[me]

My 2009 Zanussi (Electrolux) has an operation hour counter, it's not in the manual, but is detailed in the 2007 service manual for the control board, which is also used in AEG machines etc. It maxes out at 6550 hours, and stops counting. Current AEG/electrolux models have their instructions to display the usage counter in the manual.

I'm well aware of the practices of having unmarked/lasered off chips and chips with custom identification codes, which is primarily done to make reverse engineering difficult, but also inhibits repair. It has been claimed that some manufactures have more recently done it to conceal their use of cheap cloned chips sourced from china, produced using stolen designs.

I remember hearing about a scam on the news years ago, carried out I think by a few photocopier repair companies; When their repairmen were called out to fix a fault, they would wire in a simple circuit board with a counter chip on it to trigger an error after a set period of time, so they'd get regular repeat business. If I recall correctly, they got caught and prosecuted, because the boss of one of the companies they ripped off got suspicious and found the hidden board and worked out what it did.

If any manufacturers were to engage in a practice of using "self-destructing" chips, their poor reliability would damage their brand and they would likely get caught eventually.

 

[michaelz08]

My 2009 Zanussi (Electrolux) has an operation hour counter, it's not in the manual, but is detailed in the 2007 service manual for the control board, which is also used in AEG machines etc. It maxes out at 6550 hours, and stops counting. Current AEG/electrolux models have their instructions to display the usage counter in the manual.

I'm well aware of the practices of having unmarked/lasered off chips and chips with custom identification codes, which is primarily done to make reverse engineering difficult, but also inhibits repair. It has been claimed that some manufactures have more recently done it to conceal their use of cheap cloned chips sourced from china, produced using stolen designs.

I remember hearing about a scam on the news years ago, carried out I think by a few photocopier repair companies; When their repairmen were called out to fix a fault, they would wire in a simple circuit board with a counter chip on it to trigger an error after a set period of time, so they'd get regular repeat business. If I recall correctly, they got caught and prosecuted, because the boss of one of the companies they ripped off got suspicious and found the hidden board and worked out what it did.

If any manufacturers were to engage in a practice of using "self-destructing" chips, their poor reliability would damage their brand and they would likely get caught eventually.

Let's also not overlook the programmed-in cycle limit on the W211 Mercedes E-Class electronic brake-by-wire system: Sensotronic Brake Control

IIRC: Those brake servo was programmed in to throw failure codes at a certain cycle (for lack of a better term) count with the belief that it would be so far down the line, that it would appropriately correlate to the wear on the unit.

Except that it didn't, and it only took some years before owners were getting these "failure" messages on not-that-old vehicles.

The result was a class action lawsuit and the warranty on the braking systems for these cars extended to a whopping 25 years- indeed, many of these vehicles are still under warranty.

This was undeniably a massive f-up by Benz and likely cost them millions upon millions between warranty work, re-engineering the part to behave properly, and the legal costs. And this wasn't even a malicious attempt to plan obsolescence!

There's other high profile cases that could be discussed, surely. Point being that it never pans out well for the company who engages in it.

You don't realize you are describing yourself., again.......

Seriously, the irony of his post is so tangible it seems as though I can reach out and feel it.

 

[DADoES]

I checked my 22yrs-2mos-old DD's cycle count. Upper = 1,322. Lower = 759. Average 7.8 loads per month. I primarily used the upper for some years, on premise of reducing wear to the lower. I have been alternating between them for the past few years.

Signed: Goofy Glenn

 

[johnb300m]

The reason identifying marks are removed from IC chips (which has been happening since the 80's) is so that people/manufacturers can't reverse engineer the product, or do home repairs. It's also done in high end audio, so the end user doesn't realize his "audiophile" equipment uses common off the shelf chips found in mainstream brands, and is nothing special.

I'd love a link to these secret tech sites, even if we can't access them. Or is the whole site invisible?

Agreed. I was going to say this.
I did an IOT project with fire safety some years ago.
Texas Instruments had to modify and make a custom chip to have it work.
We would have our factory sand off the TI part. I bet to make sure Google couldn’t reverse engineer or contact TI about the chip they made us.

 

[johnb300m]

Ya gotta love these so-called internet know-it-alls with their typical behavior of questioning, debating, and attempting to make others look less credible.

I could state that the sun comes up every morning, and they'd come back with "How can you be sure, if it's a cloudy day?"

Cracks me the hell up these types.

Oh wise one, can you please explain in detail how you and your prepper friends identified all these self-destruct chips?
I can’t seem to find them on Digikey.
Are they under a secret code?

 

[william8]

Oh wise one, can you please explain in detail how you and your prepper friends identified all these self-destruct chips?
I can’t seem to find them on Digikey.
Are they under a secret code?

I don't think he's a tech at all. I have a friend who is in electronics repair/design. He used to work for Motorola in the 80's and 90's, designing circuits for them for many products (police related). He knew why the chips identification was removed, many decades ago. No guessing/speculating involved.

 

[johnb300m]

Ok, since Phillymatt is such a fan of facts, I did a little research on self destruct circuitry.

There are several ways to implement this in a circuit design.

1. Physically Unclonable Function (PUF) Chips
   1. These chips generate a unique “fingerprint” based on inherent physical variations. Some designs include self-destruct mechanisms that trigger when tampering is detected—such as probing or voltage anomalies.
2. Circuit Suicide Techniques
   1. Researchers have developed chips that destroy themselves by manipulating voltage across encryption key circuits. These methods can be triggered by unauthorized access attempts or environmental changes like temperature spikes
3. DARPA-Inspired Self Destructing Chips
   1. A chip showcased at the DARPA Technology Forum can disintegrate within seconds when triggered. This is aimed at military and sensitive data applications, and uses materials that rapidly degrade under specific conditions.
4. Timeout-Based Destruction
   1. experimental designs include aging-based self-destruction, where the chip disables itself after a set operational period or when exposed to certain environmental stressors like heat or voltage shifts.

I think #4 is what Matt is alluding to. So I looked more into those. Especially since I don't think anyone was using DARPA chips in consumer electronics. The BOM costs would astronomical.

These are currently in very limited, or experimental production.
There's an Aging-triggered chip developed by the University of Vermont in tandem with Marvell Technologies (a supplier I'm familiar with).

• These chips exploit natural aging, temperature variation, and voltage stress to trigger self-destruction.

In Summary:
These chips are NOT commercially available today, let alone in the 80s and 90s when Matt was in his career heyday.

SO! I asked AI, how would a self-destruct circuit be built with late 1980s electronics and technology.

- Components to Use:​

Timing: RC circuits, 555 timer, NE555 or LM555​

Logic Control: TTL or CMOS logic gates, 74LS series or 4000 series​

Power Switching: Transistors or relays, 2N2222, TIP120, Reed relays​

Destruction Trigger (oooo): Fuses, burn-out resistors, SCRs, 1A glass fuse, MCR100-6 SCR​

​

- Timeout Mechanism:​

Use a 555 timer in monostable mode to create a delay:
Configure it to output HIGH for a set time (e.g., 10 minutes).
After timeout, output goes LOW, triggering the destruction circuit.

Alternatively, use an RC delay with a comparator (e.g., LM339) to detect when voltage drops below a threshold.

- Self Destruct Mechanism​

After the set timeout, trigger one of the following:​

Blow a fuse: Use a transistor or SCR to send high current through a fuse.
Corrupt a memory chip: Apply reverse voltage or overcurrent to a small EEPROM or SRAM.
Cut power: Use a relay to disconnect Vcc from the rest of the circuit.

​

Example Circuit Flow:

1. Power ON → 555 timer starts countdown.
2. During countdown → circuit operates normally.
3. After timeout → 555 output LOW → triggers transistor → sends current through fuse → fuse blows → circuit disabled.

PhillyMatt, were you able to identify these workflows or similar layouts in all the self-destruct circuitry you identified in all those years of experience?

Edit1: I can tell you right now, some of the products I've worked on in design, we barely, BARELY were able to fit all the electronics and circuitry we needed in the layouts and housings, while still functioning as we needed. Packaging is crazy tight, even with modern technology. To add all that self destruct circuit space, AND BOM costs! It would be a non-starter.
The cheapest and easiest way to "time out" a product would to just value engineer and cost cut the existing components, knowing with validation testing, they would fail after a typical # of years.

Edit2: Post-post, I found a blog on Marvell's site discussing self-destruct chips they're working on (now, not 20yrs ago)
https://www.marvell.com/blogs/self-...d-static-and-dynamic-entropy-in-one-chip.html

 

[michaelz08]

Ok, since Phillymatt is such a fan of facts, I did a little research on self destruct circuitry.

...

Amazing work John. Gee, those secret sites must have some nuclear-level advanced information if they really hold the truth behind his claims! I bet the cure to cancer is contained on them too.

 

[phillymatt53]

Amazing work John. Gee, those secret sites must have some nuclear-level advanced information if they really hold the truth behind his claims! I bet the cure to cancer is contained on them too.

Now you've lowered yourself even further by making fun of something that's been recognized as securing a professional internet site requirment for decades.
You criticize me about my posts, yet you act like a spoiled child when they don't get their candy.
Grow Up.

 

[michaelz08]

Now you've lowered yourself even further by making fun of something that's been recognized as securing a professional internet site requirment for decades.
You criticize me about my posts, yet you act like a spoiled child when they don't get their candy.
Grow Up.

Are we giving advice now? Yours has been dutifully noted. For you, consider learning how to make a credible argument and not cry "ur a child" when people point out the gargantuan holes your theory.

 

[william8]

Now you've lowered yourself even further by making fun of something that's been recognized as securing a professional internet site requirment for decades.
You criticize me about my posts, yet you act like a spoiled child when they don't get their candy.
Grow Up.

Where is the website? I've been securing websites for decades. You can still see them, but can't access them without permission.
Stop with the nonsense.

Look at this website you are on, it has secured forums, that can't be accessed without a membership.

 

[johnb300m]

@phillymatt53 When do you think I could get confirmation on the designs of self destruct chips and circuitry you’ve identified in products over the years?
Are they close to what I’ve laid out previously?
Can you share chip part numbers?

 

[vacerator]

Also too, as we have the flat earthers, the never been to the mooners, etc. pick your poison; you can either get a vaccine, and not get sick, or get not as sick, or refuse it, and chance death from the virus. I don't know if there was heard immunity during Bubonic plague. History has many lessons. If we ignore it and don't learn from it, we often repeat it.

 

[phillymatt53]

Where is the website? I've been securing websites for decades. You can still see them, but can't access them without permission.
Stop with the nonsense.

Look at this website you are on, it has secured forums, that can't be accessed without a membership.

It's well known on here that I retired in 2016 when we closed the shop and sold the building.
This also meant contacting all businesses and accounts that we dealt with and notifying that we were soon to close.
During the closure, the shop's owner who was the primary member of that "secured" website that was available to us technicians, was informed by the web's host/webmaster to close his account with them, and to delete any computer files.
Which, could only be accessed with the shop's computer system and IP address.
The website would know if another IP address other than the shop's internet was trying to access it and would give a "not available" warning.
Trust me, I tried it from my home PC back then.
Even though I was the senior/chief technician, I had to log on only at the shop's computer system under the boss's credentials.
So no, after 9 years, I do not, nor have any information saved about the website.

So now let all the fools and naysayer's continue the offensive ranting and amusing themselves with blabber trying to make me look bad.

 

[william8]

It's well known on here that I retired in 2016 when we closed the shop and sold the building.
This also meant contacting all businesses and accounts that we dealt with and notifying that we were soon to close.
During the closure, the shop's owner who was the primary member of that "secured" website that was available to us technicians, was informed by the web's host/webmaster to close his account with them, and to delete any computer files.
Which, could only be accessed with the shop's computer system and IP address.
The website would know if another IP address other than the shop's internet was trying to access it and would give a "not available" warning.
Trust me, I tried it from my home PC back then.
Even though I was the senior/chief technician, I had to log on only at the shop's computer system under the boss's credentials.
So no, after 9 years, I do not, nor have any information saved about the website.

So now let all the fools and naysayer's continue the offensive ranting and amusing themselves with blabber trying to make me look bad.

That is one incredible tale. Not true, or even plausible, but incredible.

You make yourself look bad. Guess I'm not on ignore after all...

 

[Chetlaham]

Anyone who is a professional knows there are websites which are either:

1) Groups on Facebook, communities on Reddit, or private chatrooms where in order to see anything you must ask to join and be approved or be invited to join. You either have to know a person or show the credentials they ask for prior.

2) Online forums that are partially visible online and can be accessed by anyone. However, in order to post you must be a professional or related to the industry. Any DIY posts are forbidden and leads to a permanent ban. A lot of the threads can be viewed by the public, but certain sub forums may be private for a variety of reasons such as proprietary information being discussed or private matters such as how to repair a security system as a random example.

I have no reason to doubt Matt considering the stuff he has shown on here and the level of sophistication involved.

 

[william8]

I have no reason to doubt Matt considering the stuff he has shown on here and the level of sophistication involved.

Except he can't show us the website. Why not? We would not be able to access the super secret website protected by ip address! If you knew anything about website development Chet, you would realize just how silly the whole story is.
And it's so secure everyone at the company could access it using his boss's credentials! Sure...and apparently he can't even remember the name of it.

 

[phillymatt53]

Anyone who is a professional knows there are websites which are either:

1) Groups on Facebook, communities on Reddit, or private chatrooms where in order to see anything you must ask to join and be approved or be invited to join. You either have to know a person or show the credentials they ask for prior.

2) Online forums that are partially visible online and can be accessed by anyone. However, in order to post you must be a professional or related to the industry. Any DIY posts are forbidden and leads to a permanent ban. A lot of the threads can be viewed by the public, but certain sub forums may be private for a variety of reasons such as proprietary information being discussed or private matters such as how to repair a security system as a random example.

I have no reason to doubt Matt considering the stuff he has shown on here and the level of sophistication involved.

Thanks Chet.
I tried to explain the best I could that the tech/repair site was enormously valuable as far as information, tips for us techs, and what is going on in the industry.
I've retained a lot of it in memory, particularly some of the goings-on with manufacturing and its oddball covert activities, which I might add, are not always beneficial to consumers - thus that post of mine concerning time-based malfunctions of some products.
Some Tv sets for instance, had countdown clocks which triggered malfunctions after a certain time.
The customer could access an "hours of use" menu reading or reset for such things as projection lamp hours, but even in the tech-only service menu there was no way to diagnose or rectify a system failure due to those "hidden" chips.
This drove us techs crazy, and became a hot topic on the website.
We chalked it up to manufacturers securing more revenue in a dirty way.

In a way, I'm glad that I retired, because towards the end, it became too frustrating and stressful to deal with.
Even some tech-line servicing info was becoming useless.
Samsung was one of the first to give us independant shops a hard time in solving repairs.
They claimed to only give help to "authorized" Samsung service centers.
That to me was the nail in the coffin.
Bose was another one, forcing the customer to send their expensive "wave radios" back to Bose for service - also at a high cost.
Since then however, some schematics have surfaced online.
Corporate politics are a powerful thing to fight.

Funny thing was, I was backed-up and loaded with the more "vintage" stuff that was built in a time before this manufacturing greed crap kicked in.

 

[Chetlaham]

Except he can't show us the website. Why not? We would not be able to access the super secret website protected by ip address! If you knew anything about website development Chet, you would realize just how silly the whole story is.
And it's so secure everyone at the company could access it using his boss's credentials! Sure...and apparently he can't even remember the name of it.

Because he no longer works for the shop or the company. It closed.

It sounds like the shop owner was granted a digital certificate, specific account and pass word to access a private forum but on the terms that only the shop owner and the techs working under him could access.

The same is true for Whirlpool Service Matters. Only registered techs or authorized dealers who have been given the appropriate tokens after having paid or been verified can log in and access private sections of Service Matters.

This is actually common for all parts of the professional industry. Sometimes these private sites or private sections are company run, other times it is a private citizen that wants the forum only to be accessed by others in the same line of work.

 

[william8]

Because he no longer works for the shop or the company. It closed.

It sounds like the shop owner was granted a digital certificate, specific account and pass word to access a private forum but on the terms that only the shop owner and the techs working under him could access.

The same is true for Whirlpool Service Matters. Only registered techs or authorized dealers who have been given the appropriate tokens after having paid or been verified can log in and access private sections of Service Matters.

This is actually common for all parts of the professional industry. Sometimes these private sites or private sections are company run, other times it is a private citizen that wants the forum only to be accessed by others in the same line of work.

Your almost starting to get it, while I can't ACCESS the whirlpool site, I CAN see it. There are no tokens, just a username and password. How else would they access it in the field?

https://servicematters.com/en_US

His story is BS, quit buying it.

 

[Chetlaham]

Your almost starting to get it, while I can't ACCESS the whirlpool site, I CAN see it. There are no tokens, just a username and password. How else would they access it in the field?

https://servicematters.com/en_US

His story is BS, quit buying it.

He would have a link that takes him to a sign in box, and once signed in then he can see the forums.

The sign in page may be nothing more than a grey wall with a few text boxes.

It depends.

 

[william8]

He would have a link that takes him to a sign in box, and once signed in then he can see the forums.

The sign in page may be nothing more than a grey wall with a few text boxes.

It depends.

All he has to do, is show the site., like I showed your example above. He can't, because it's BS.
What do you do for a living, if I may ask? It sure isn't IT or website related.

 

[phillymatt53]

He would have a link that takes him to a sign in box, and once signed in then he can see the forums.

The sign in page may be nothing more than a grey wall with a few text boxes.

It depends.

Chet, it's futile to even continue with that insistent member.
After NINE frikkin' years he thinks I still can just pop off some website link?
I don't even know if it's been changed since then, as many other sites have done, like this one.
It was on the shop's main computer, not mine, nor did I gold-plate it and stick it on the fireplace mantle.
This insistant web junkie just wants to trigger people, bully them, so that's why I blocked him, among others who have become annoying.
I don't need the aggevation.
Screw 'em!
Let him argue over this......

 

[Chetlaham]

All he has to do, is show the site., like I showed your example above. He can't, because it's BS.
What do you do for a living, if I may ask? It sure isn't IT or website related.

As I said, the site might be discord, it might be a grey wall, or it might not exist anymore.

Nothing Matt is saying is highly unlikely or violates the laws of physics. It is possible, and I doubt Matt would lie.