Are New Appliances Always Doomed? Why A Grass Roots Movement Could Change Things

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I did some quick research, and both me and my typical AI assistants are not capable to find a specific phrasing that would require manufacturers in the EU to provide cycle counters.
I am somewhat certain to have read that it is actually a requirement - either operating hour or cycle counters.

What is certain though is that in the period from 2024 to 2026 several directives and requirements for repairability, parts availability, circular economy stuff and warranty coverage have changed/will change.
Given that even some rather price orientated manufacturers have those counters now, I wouldn't be surprised it's just some way to cover some requirements under those regulations.
 
You seem to maintain your own clearly biased opinions and speculate on things, which you are free to do.
However, I've got decades of experience in my field of professional servicing, and you sound like you know more than me - which you are also free to do.
Also, I'm certainly not prone to paranoia as you imply.
I state the facts, I don't mince words, and I believe in stating honestly from experience what I know, what I've seen, and what others in my field have dealt with.
So you can chew on and debate all of us techs, because we've heard it all.
Biased opinions? I focused on factual points on why such an approach is either practically/technically not viable or not feasible as a method of designing products.

You have your service experience, which is credible and valuable, but are making assertions in the technical realm- with no support whatsoever to your claims- and the technical realm is my area of work.

The reason identifying marks are removed from IC chips (which has been happening since the 80's) is so that people/manufacturers can't reverse engineer the product, or do home repairs. It's also done in high end audio, so the end user doesn't realize his "audiophile" equipment uses common off the shelf chips found in mainstream brands, and is nothing special.

I'd love a link to these secret tech sites, even if we can't access them. Or is the whole site invisible?

This is absolutely correct. This has been the common practice for decades now.

What are you expecting to see if you scraped off the goop? A chip marked "APPLIANCE_DISABLER_M011 MANUFACTURED BY TSMC"?

Such a bomb would be in the CODE of the system, highly unlikely to be a dedicated chip. If you don't know that, you don't know enough to be making such a claim.
 
Ya gotta love these so-called internet know-it-alls with their typical behavior of questioning, debating, and attempting to make others look less credible.

I could state that the sun comes up every morning, and they'd come back with "How can you be sure, if it's a cloudy day?"

Cracks me the hell up these types.
 
Ya gotta love these so-called internet know-it-alls with their typical behavior of questioning, debating, and attempting to make others look less credible.

I could state that the sun comes up every morning, and they'd come back with "How can you be sure, if it's a cloudy day?"

Cracks me the hell up these types.
You don't realize you are describing yourself., again.......
 
My 2009 Zanussi (Electrolux) has an operation hour counter, it's not in the manual, but is detailed in the 2007 service manual for the control board, which is also used in AEG machines etc. It maxes out at 6550 hours, and stops counting. Current AEG/electrolux models have their instructions to display the usage counter in the manual.

I'm well aware of the practices of having unmarked/lasered off chips and chips with custom identification codes, which is primarily done to make reverse engineering difficult, but also inhibits repair. It has been claimed that some manufactures have more recently done it to conceal their use of cheap cloned chips sourced from china, produced using stolen designs.

I remember hearing about a scam on the news years ago, carried out I think by a few photocopier repair companies; When their repairmen were called out to fix a fault, they would wire in a simple circuit board with a counter chip on it to trigger an error after a set period of time, so they'd get regular repeat business. If I recall correctly, they got caught and prosecuted, because the boss of one of the companies they ripped off got suspicious and found the hidden board and worked out what it did.

If any manufacturers were to engage in a practice of using "self-destructing" chips, their poor reliability would damage their brand and they would likely get caught eventually.
 
My 2009 Zanussi (Electrolux) has an operation hour counter, it's not in the manual, but is detailed in the 2007 service manual for the control board, which is also used in AEG machines etc. It maxes out at 6550 hours, and stops counting. Current AEG/electrolux models have their instructions to display the usage counter in the manual.

I'm well aware of the practices of having unmarked/lasered off chips and chips with custom identification codes, which is primarily done to make reverse engineering difficult, but also inhibits repair. It has been claimed that some manufactures have more recently done it to conceal their use of cheap cloned chips sourced from china, produced using stolen designs.

I remember hearing about a scam on the news years ago, carried out I think by a few photocopier repair companies; When their repairmen were called out to fix a fault, they would wire in a simple circuit board with a counter chip on it to trigger an error after a set period of time, so they'd get regular repeat business. If I recall correctly, they got caught and prosecuted, because the boss of one of the companies they ripped off got suspicious and found the hidden board and worked out what it did.

If any manufacturers were to engage in a practice of using "self-destructing" chips, their poor reliability would damage their brand and they would likely get caught eventually.
Let's also not overlook the programmed-in cycle limit on the W211 Mercedes E-Class electronic brake-by-wire system: Sensotronic Brake Control

IIRC: Those brake servo was programmed in to throw failure codes at a certain cycle (for lack of a better term) count with the belief that it would be so far down the line, that it would appropriately correlate to the wear on the unit.

Except that it didn't, and it only took some years before owners were getting these "failure" messages on not-that-old vehicles.

The result was a class action lawsuit and the warranty on the braking systems for these cars extended to a whopping 25 years- indeed, many of these vehicles are still under warranty.

This was undeniably a massive f-up by Benz and likely cost them millions upon millions between warranty work, re-engineering the part to behave properly, and the legal costs. And this wasn't even a malicious attempt to plan obsolescence!

There's other high profile cases that could be discussed, surely. Point being that it never pans out well for the company who engages in it.

You don't realize you are describing yourself., again.......

Seriously, the irony of his post is so tangible it seems as though I can reach out and feel it.
 
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I checked my 22yrs-2mos-old DD's cycle count. Upper = 1,322. Lower = 759. Average 7.8 loads per month. I primarily used the upper for some years, on premise of reducing wear to the lower. I have been alternating between them for the past few years.

Signed: Goofy Glenn
 
The reason identifying marks are removed from IC chips (which has been happening since the 80's) is so that people/manufacturers can't reverse engineer the product, or do home repairs. It's also done in high end audio, so the end user doesn't realize his "audiophile" equipment uses common off the shelf chips found in mainstream brands, and is nothing special.

I'd love a link to these secret tech sites, even if we can't access them. Or is the whole site invisible?
Agreed. I was going to say this.
I did an IOT project with fire safety some years ago.
Texas Instruments had to modify and make a custom chip to have it work.
We would have our factory sand off the TI part. I bet to make sure Google couldn’t reverse engineer or contact TI about the chip they made us.
 
Ya gotta love these so-called internet know-it-alls with their typical behavior of questioning, debating, and attempting to make others look less credible.

I could state that the sun comes up every morning, and they'd come back with "How can you be sure, if it's a cloudy day?"

Cracks me the hell up these types.
Oh wise one, can you please explain in detail how you and your prepper friends identified all these self-destruct chips?
I can’t seem to find them on Digikey.
Are they under a secret code?
 
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Oh wise one, can you please explain in detail how you and your prepper friends identified all these self-destruct chips?
I can’t seem to find them on Digikey.
Are they under a secret code?
I don't think he's a tech at all. I have a friend who is in electronics repair/design. He used to work for Motorola in the 80's and 90's, designing circuits for them for many products (police related). He knew why the chips identification was removed, many decades ago. No guessing/speculating involved.
 
Ok, since Phillymatt is such a fan of facts, I did a little research on self destruct circuitry.

There are several ways to implement this in a circuit design.
  1. Physically Unclonable Function (PUF) Chips
    1. These chips generate a unique “fingerprint” based on inherent physical variations. Some designs include self-destruct mechanisms that trigger when tampering is detected—such as probing or voltage anomalies.
  2. Circuit Suicide Techniques
    1. Researchers have developed chips that destroy themselves by manipulating voltage across encryption key circuits. These methods can be triggered by unauthorized access attempts or environmental changes like temperature spikes
  3. DARPA-Inspired Self Destructing Chips
    1. A chip showcased at the DARPA Technology Forum can disintegrate within seconds when triggered. This is aimed at military and sensitive data applications, and uses materials that rapidly degrade under specific conditions.
  4. Timeout-Based Destruction
    1. experimental designs include aging-based self-destruction, where the chip disables itself after a set operational period or when exposed to certain environmental stressors like heat or voltage shifts.
I think #4 is what Matt is alluding to. So I looked more into those. Especially since I don't think anyone was using DARPA chips in consumer electronics. The BOM costs would astronomical.

These are currently in very limited, or experimental production.
There's an Aging-triggered chip developed by the University of Vermont in tandem with Marvell Technologies (a supplier I'm familiar with).
  • These chips exploit natural aging, temperature variation, and voltage stress to trigger self-destruction.
In Summary:
These chips are NOT commercially available today, let alone in the 80s and 90s when Matt was in his career heyday.

SO! I asked AI, how would a self-destruct circuit be built with late 1980s electronics and technology.

- Components to Use:​
Timing: RC circuits, 555 timer, NE555 or LM555​
Logic Control: TTL or CMOS logic gates, 74LS series or 4000 series​
Power Switching: Transistors or relays, 2N2222, TIP120, Reed relays​
Destruction Trigger (oooo): Fuses, burn-out resistors, SCRs, 1A glass fuse, MCR100-6 SCR​
- Timeout Mechanism:​
Use a 555 timer in monostable mode to create a delay:
Configure it to output HIGH for a set time (e.g., 10 minutes).
After timeout, output goes LOW, triggering the destruction circuit.

Alternatively, use an RC delay with a comparator (e.g., LM339) to detect when voltage drops below a threshold.

- Self Destruct Mechanism​
After the set timeout, trigger one of the following:​

Blow a fuse: Use a transistor or SCR to send high current through a fuse.
Corrupt a memory chip: Apply reverse voltage or overcurrent to a small EEPROM or SRAM.
Cut power: Use a relay to disconnect Vcc from the rest of the circuit.
🧪 Example Circuit Flow:
  1. Power ON → 555 timer starts countdown.
  2. During countdown → circuit operates normally.
  3. After timeout → 555 output LOW → triggers transistor → sends current through fuse → fuse blows → circuit disabled.
PhillyMatt, were you able to identify these workflows or similar layouts in all the self-destruct circuitry you identified in all those years of experience?

Edit1: I can tell you right now, some of the products I've worked on in design, we barely, BARELY were able to fit all the electronics and circuitry we needed in the layouts and housings, while still functioning as we needed. Packaging is crazy tight, even with modern technology. To add all that self destruct circuit space, AND BOM costs! It would be a non-starter.
The cheapest and easiest way to "time out" a product would to just value engineer and cost cut the existing components, knowing with validation testing, they would fail after a typical # of years.

Edit2: Post-post, I found a blog on Marvell's site discussing self-destruct chips they're working on (now, not 20yrs ago)
https://www.marvell.com/blogs/self-...d-static-and-dynamic-entropy-in-one-chip.html
 
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Ok, since Phillymatt is such a fan of facts, I did a little research on self destruct circuitry.

...
Amazing work John. Gee, those secret sites must have some nuclear-level advanced information if they really hold the truth behind his claims! I bet the cure to cancer is contained on them too.
 
Amazing work John. Gee, those secret sites must have some nuclear-level advanced information if they really hold the truth behind his claims! I bet the cure to cancer is contained on them too.
Now you've lowered yourself even further by making fun of something that's been recognized as securing a professional internet site requirment for decades.
You criticize me about my posts, yet you act like a spoiled child when they don't get their candy.
Grow Up.
 
Now you've lowered yourself even further by making fun of something that's been recognized as securing a professional internet site requirment for decades.
You criticize me about my posts, yet you act like a spoiled child when they don't get their candy.
Grow Up.
Are we giving advice now? Yours has been dutifully noted. For you, consider learning how to make a credible argument and not cry "ur a child" when people point out the gargantuan holes your theory.
 
Now you've lowered yourself even further by making fun of something that's been recognized as securing a professional internet site requirment for decades.
You criticize me about my posts, yet you act like a spoiled child when they don't get their candy.
Grow Up.
Where is the website? I've been securing websites for decades. You can still see them, but can't access them without permission.
Stop with the nonsense.

Look at this website you are on, it has secured forums, that can't be accessed without a membership.
 
Also too, as we have the flat earthers, the never been to the mooners, etc. pick your poison; you can either get a vaccine, and not get sick, or get not as sick, or refuse it, and chance death from the virus. I don't know if there was heard immunity during Bubonic plague. History has many lessons. If we ignore it and don't learn from it, we often repeat it.
 
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