Backup Generators?

[turboace]

Hi All,

Does anyone here have any experience with backup power generators? We’re starting into hurricane season here on the East Coast. We live in a very rural area in NJ, very low population density, so we are always the last to have power restored after a storm. The power was out today for 6 hours after the storms blew thru and took out some power lines.

My basic requirements are that it be able to run my 1.5hp well pump and two 0.5hp furnace blowers along with a couple freezers, the fridge and some lights and TV.

So far I'm looking at two different options. The less expensive one is a PTO generator that would hook up the PTO on our tractor for the power source. The advantage here is that I know our New Holland tractor will always start and that we will always be able to get diesel for it. The generator has no motor, so will require no regular maintenance. I would back feed it into my load center using a generator lockout which ensures that the load center is either on gen set power or utility power. When the power was to go out, I'd have to get it out, hook it up and plug it into an outlet on the outside of the house, go to the basement and flip breakers around and we would be in business. This looks like it’s going to run between $2500 to $3000 for this option, which would give me about 10KW of power.

The second option is a Cummings/onan back up gen set with an automatic 200 amp transfer switch. The unit is fueled by propane; we have 1000 gal underground tank, and makes 12kw of power. The operation of this generator would be totally automatic. When the power goes out, the transfer switch automatically tells the generator to start and switches over to generator power, regardless if we are home or not. Much more convenient, a little more power, a lot more money, about twice as much, so approx, 6 grand.

Anybody have one and/or have any advice?

 

[58limited]

I have a Generac 15Kw automatic standby generator with 200 am transfer switch. I can run my whole house, including A/C, with it. I turn off the A/C to use the dryer. It cost me $3000 in 2005 and it worked great until it was flooded by Hurricane Ike (I live on the seawall). I plan to replace it with another Generac unit, this time I will raise it 4 feet (if the water gets that high, I will have lost everything so the generator wouldn't matter).

In an inland setting, it would work great. They run off of propane or natural gas, and would be cheaper than the $6K unit you priced. They make them up to 20Kw air cooled in the $3000-$4500 price range, or you can get a liquid cooled unit for double the price, and you can get a higher Kw model if you go liquid cooled.

 

[circlew]

Don't have one at the present, but thinking of getting a generator as part of the renovation that I'm doing on my home. Friends down the street got a Winco 12 KW natural gas fired unit a few months ago, but have only used it once, so don't know about its reliability as of yet. A relative in Mississippi has a Kohler diesel 50 KW genset with auto transfer switch that transfers the entire house load over in 10 sec. That size was needed due to size of house and electric heat. It was used for 5 days during hurricane Katrina with no problems, in addition to frequent shorter outages on a regular basis. It exercises itself about once a week, which is important for reliability. It sits about 40' behind the house as it's rather loud - sounds like a farm tractor when it's running. Since I'm considering one, I've done some research and found that ones with 1800 rpm engines are more durable than those with 3600 rpm. Also, in a cold climate a block heater is necessary to ensure reliable starting. As I don't have gas service, and don't wish to get propane, I'll need to get one that runs on diesel, either 20 or 30 KW if I want to be able to use everything in my house as normal. Will probably choose Kohler or Cummins. I think Tolivac is the expert here on this subject - hope he'll give his thoughts on this matter.

 

[whirlcool]

During Hurricane Ike our neighborhood was abuzz with the sounds of generators running. Thank god a cold front came through the next day so we could sleep with the windows open. But the noise kept us awake.

You could also get a gasoline operated generator, but they use about a gallon an hour and when you run out of fuel you have to face the long lines at the gas stations with other people trying to buy more gas for their generators too.

Natural Gas or Propane seems really the way to go. Our neighbor across the street has a natural gas model and ran his whole house on it for 10 days. Sure made the wait for the electricity to come back on much more comfortable!

 

[tolivac]

Don't have one at home-and don't think its worth it even though I am in a "hurricane" area.A couple of neighbors further down the street have the packaged backup units.Just before Floyd-people flocked to Lowes and Home Depot,Sears for gensets.During Floyd-hats off to the utility companies for keeping the power,gas,water and phone services going.My water was interrupted at best for two days.the water company fixed and even replaced the broken water line to my neighborhood very quickly.After Floyd most of the generators gathered dust in peoples garages.Sometimes you see them at yard sales!
At work we have a more complex genset system-a Cat 3816 16 cyclinder 1.8Mw generator that can be used with the power company as load mangement-or isolated for emerg power.If you have a generator of any sort YOU MUST have a transfer-isolation switch.Otherwise you can be in violation of electric codes and the power companies regulations.In fact in areas here there was no power and people were using genrators the power company linemen checked the temp gen users to make sure their gen unit could not feed back into the power system causing a hazard to linemen trying to repair the lines.The automatic genset systems with the transfer switch are worth it.However please note if you gen runs from natuaral gas it won't work if the gas line is made inoperative from a disaster.Propane powered ones from your own tank would be fine.You will just need to able to have your propane tank refilled.The gen will use the propane more quickly.

 

[hydralique]

Diesel is a nice idea if you don't have propane, but remember a few things about it: it does have a shelf life, and you can't just put up a diesel tank anywhere. The latter can be a real expense as you may have to have double wall tanks or a concrete containment basin to catch a spill in case of a rupture. Best to check with your local Building and Safety department as to their rules for residential storage of diesel fuel. Cold temperatures are an issue too; in subfreezing weather standard diesel #2 must be treated with diesel #1 or it will thicken up and be unuseable. This is done by the refinery according to season and location, but if you have a tank of summer diesel and try to crank the generator during an ice storm you might as well be storing molasses - it won't flow until it thaws out unless you have a way to heat it up.

 

[tolivac]

The genest at my workplace is diesel-and the site has two 7500gal tanks for the fuel-honestly an 18wheeler tanker truck has to fill them.What a Bill!The gen uses about 420Gal per hour when being used.Otherwise the fuel feeds two boilers for heat.The boilers don't run in the summer.The gen Does for load management.Yes, stale fuel can be a problem for diesels and that is another reason the diesel sets have "exercisors"on them-esp in unattened installations.So far the generator out here hasn't had any problems of stale or frozen fuel.Another consideration for diesel generators is having the fuel tested for sulphur-sulphur can foul turbochargers-And void the warrantee of the engine-Caterpiller has this notice in their geneset manuals.The fuel supplier typically knows the sulphur content of the fuel.Or you can have a lab test it.The exercisors help keep the fuel lines to the engine filled with fresh fuel-keeping it from freezing or "parrafinizing"(wax crystals forming-why the fuel can go stale)And yes fungus can grow in it!This can clog fuel systems too.the tanks at the workplace are concrete.and also there is a fuel pump so you can fill the tractor or other portable diesel motored vehicles here.

 

[58limited]

My generac has an insulated cabinet to deaden the sound. It is quieter than the little portable generators that everyone used after the hurricane, but it is louder than an A/C unit. I installed mine on the back side of the garage to minimize noise in the house.

 

[hydralique]

Tolivac . . .

Being in NC, I'd guess that most of the time you'd be OK with regard to freezing diesel fuel, unless the generator needed to kick on during a real cold snap. In the north and midwest it could be a problem. You're very right about the possibility of fungus growth in old, stored diesel.

Sulphur shouldn't be a big problem with diesel fuel these days, as for the past several years the EPA has mandated ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel) througout the nation. This was done for two reasons: to lower sulphur emissions, and to allow modern diesel engines to use the most advanced emissions equipment. From about 2001 through 2007 most diesel cars couldn't be sold here in the US because the sulphur in the fuel would kill the advanced catalytic converters - the turbos weren't the problem.

 

[countryguy]

We installed a whole house standby generator (made by Guardian) about 1.5 years ago. It is a 16 KWH model and runs almost everything in the house including the A/C, well pump, sewage pump, electric hot water tank, electric baseboard heaters, stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, blower motor on the wood stove as well as lights. It has been a godsend and has come in handy several times for 5-6 hours at a time. It runs on propane. We had to get 2 large propane tanks to run it. So far the tanks have only been filled when we initially got them. One tank is still at 100% and the other is at 60%. The generator starts automatically after the electricity has been out for 30 seconds and then the transfer switch switches everything over. When the power is restored, the transfer switches everything back and the generator shuts down. It also starts weekly and runs for a 15 minute test. Even in our cold winters where it can go to -30 F. the generator has run flawlessly. Yes it was expensive, almost 12K including the equipment (the generator alone was almost $4K), installation, propane tank rental, initial fill of the tanks, etc. Coincidentally I just heard the generator start for its weekly test Since both my ex-partner and I have sleep apnea and require cpap machines, we can't go without electricity.

Gary

 

[whirlcool]

I am sure a lot of people out there are thinking like I do. That is how do you justify the cost? In Houston the last Hurricane in which this area lost power was in 2008. The one before that was in 1983. We've had a few power failures in the meantime for just an hour or so, but not too often.
I am thinking if I buy a standby generator now, will it still work 10-15 years down the road when it will really be needed? How much of this cost can be recouped in a sale of the house?

I have had an estimate of $8K to set our house up with one to run everything, but I have a hard time justifying the expense in this economy.

 

[yogitunes]

at the last house we had the backup automatic set up, about $3000.00 for complete set up, ran on natural gas, powered everything you needed, sat outside about twice the dimensions of the central air unit, neighbors were all jealous, we had power when they did not, at that time we also had a tower antennae, could switch over and watch TV (local)when cable went out, prepare for everything if you can .....

looking to do it again soon in the new house, combining it with solar and air generators, save where you can

 

[sudsmaster]

Here in California, hurricanes don't happen (although we can have wind storms, once every 10 years or so). The real threat is earthquake. The problem is that if the quake is big enough to put out electric power, it may also have resulted in cracked natural gas lines and therefore a generator running on natural gas would be out as well.

I have thought of getting a small emergency generator but am not too keen on the yearly maintenance that would be needed to make sure it's operational. Power outages here are relatively infrequent. Usually it seems to be the result of a car or truck hitting a power pole. Last year we had one that lasted about four hours. Long enough for neighbors to start trading flashlights but no real threat to most people. Chest freezer was fine.

In the event of a major quake, I'd shut off the filter setup to the fish pond (it could go bad in a couple of hours of no flow) so that when the power comes on the fish wouldn't be poisoned. When the power returns I'd power flush the filter so it would be safe for the fish again. I'd resign myself to losing the contents of the chest and other freezers. That stuff can be replaced. I have a propane grill with a pot burner so could cook on the patio if natural gas goes out.

And a major quake in this area will happen. It's overdue. Life will change for most people as a result. I'm hoping the seismic foundation retrofit I did 10 years ago would keep the house inhabitable, but you never know. Would depend on the size of the quake.

Oh, and the tap water might go out as well. I'm prepared to start drinking boiled fish pond water, if necessary. ;-)

Anyway, though, if I were in deep hurricane country I'd probably go for the fully automatic standby generator running off propane or natural gas. Who knows you might need that farm tractor for clearing downed trees, or maybe even transportation.

 

[revvinkevin]

Hello Andy (Turboace)!

First my little generator story. The only personal experience I have with a generator is when I lived in a 20-unit townhouse complex about 14 years ago. The garages for the units were below street level and there was a floor drain sump with a pump. One time we had heavy rains and the power was out for more then 6 hours. No power = no pump = flooding in the garages. After that incidence the HOA bought a 5.5 KW generator and had an electrician modify the wiring so we could move the generator from storage and power the garage area gate and the sump pump. The next time we had heavy rain and no power, it worked like a charm and never had a flooding problem again.

Obviously your power requirements are a little greater then my experience above, but if I am offer my 3 or 4 cents worth…

I would suggest going with the propane powered, permanently installed and connected genset, especially since you already have a very large propane tank.

From a maintenance and environmental standpoint, propane is much cleaner burning then diesel, so a lot less pollution (a good thing!) and you can go longer periods between oil changes (it should be changed every 2 years at the very minimum with minimal use). In propane powered engines the oil just does not get dirty when compared to gasoline or especially diesel. While I don’t know the size of your tractor, I'm guessing the propane-powered genset may also burn less fuel per hour as well.

Convenience. Obviously this type of genset would have auto start and the auto transfer switches so you would not have to go out to move the tractor, connect the generator AND make the connections to your electrical service. Plus, a stationary generator such as this has a very narrow operational RPM range to produce the proper voltage and frequency (i.e. 120V & 60 Hz). Any time you'd start your tractor to power the generator, you'd have to make sure it's right within that narrow RPM window, which I believe only has about a 200 - 400 rpm range. You'd also have to make sure your throttle lock holds tight for hours in case you have a long outage.

Another point is a tractor-mounted, PTO generator (I assume) will not auto-compensate for load, adjusting the throttle accordingly, as the purpose built genset will. So if your A/C or electric heat kicks on while your sump or water pump, TV and refrigerator are running too, the load will cause the RPM to drop out of that operational RPM window, causing lights to dim or things may even shut off.

One last thought. If you are in an area, which has frequent and/or long duration power outages, then go for the larger, permanent set up which will power everything. If you only experience infrequent or short duration outages, or cost is an issue, maybe consider a lower power genset only large enough to power the basic essentials. For instance, your refrigerator and deep freezer, a TV, a heater and a few lights.

I hope this helps!
Kevin

 

[58limited]

Whirlcool,

If you are a do-it-yourselfer like me, the generator is not that hard to install. I ran my own natural gas line and wired the transfer switch to the main box. I had an electrician come and inspect my installation and adjust the generator - that cost $200. My total expense was about $3500 (generator, sales tax, pipe for gas, electrician, misc parts). Some electricians who are dealers for a certain brand offer a package deal - one local to me will install a generator for $200 if you buy it from them (you have to have the gas line installed yourself).

In my area, thanks to three hurricanes since 2005, a standby generator is a selling asset for the house. You might ask a realtor how much it will affect the resale values in your area. Unfortunately, we can't predict the next hurricane. My area hadn't had a major one since 1962, then Bam! Three in four years - two of which were major.

In 1998, we lost power for several days in a rare ice storm - the generator would have been a great asset then. In the past several years I have had several power outages, some for over 12 hours, just from regular storms and once from a truck taking out a power pole. The generator was great to have since I could keep the A/C on, use my computer, and watch TV. It all depends on how much comfort you want, or need. For me, this alone justified the expense, and will justify the repair or replacement of my damaged unit.

 

[58limited]

Whirlcool,

If you are a do-it-yourselfer like me, the generator is not that hard to install. I ran my own natural gas line and wired the transfer switch to the main box. I had an electrician come and inspect my installation and adjust the generator - that cost $200. My total expense was about $3500 (generator, sales tax, pipe for gas, electrician, misc parts). Some electricians who are dealers for a certain brand offer a package deal - one local to me will install a generator for $200 if you buy it from them (you have to have the gas line installed yourself).

In my area, thanks to three hurricanes since 2005, a standby generator is a selling asset for the house. You might ask a realtor how much it will affect the resale values in your area. Unfortunately, we can't predict the next hurricane. My area hadn't had a major one since 1962, then Bam! Three in four years - two of which were major.

In 1998, we lost power for several days in a rare ice storm - the generator would have been a great asset then. In the past several years I have had several power outages, some for over 12 hours, just from regular storms and once from a truck taking out a power pole. The generator was great to have since I could keep the A/C on, use my computer, and watch TV. It all depends on how much comfort you want, or need. For me, this alone justified the expense, and will justify the repair or replacement of my damaged unit.

 

[58limited]

Whirlcool,

If you are a do-it-yourselfer like me, the generator is not that hard to install. I ran my own natural gas line and wired the transfer switch to the main box. I had an electrician come and inspect my installation and adjust the generator - that cost $200. My total expense was about $3500 (generator, sales tax, pipe for gas, electrician, misc parts). Some electricians who are dealers for a certain brand offer a package deal - one local to me will install a generator for $200 if you buy it from them (you have to have the gas line installed yourself).

In my area, thanks to three hurricanes since 2005, a standby generator is a selling asset for the house. You might ask a realtor how much it will affect the resale values in your area. Unfortunately, we can't predict the next hurricane. My area hadn't had a major one since 1962, then Bam! Three in four years - two of which were major.

In 1998, we lost power for several days in a rare ice storm - the generator would have been a great asset then. In the past several years I have had several power outages, some for over 12 hours, just from regular storms and once from a truck taking out a power pole. The generator was great to have since I could keep the A/C on, use my computer, and watch TV. It all depends on how much comfort you want, or need. For me, this alone justified the expense, and will justify the repair or replacement of my damaged unit.

 

[58limited]

Sorry about the triple post - the website hung up and I hit reload. Guess the post came through multiple times.

 

[tolivac]

The cold hasn't bothered either genset or the boilers.There is a pump that pumps the fuel from the two main tanks to holding tanks in the main building and the gen building.The pump is in an insulated enclosure.Yes,i guess since diesel fuel is now used in cars the sulphur content would be reduced or eliminated.so that is no longer a concern-just remeber the notice in the manual for an older Cat geneset.Looks like the muffler on the unit out here is to be replaced-an new one is sitting on a large pallet outside the building near the generator.Its about 8 ft long and 4 ft in diameter.Large muffler for a 2700Hp engine.There is thoughts about getting another one of these gensets to use here-then we could run most of our load.This series of Cat genesets can auto start and parrallel when required-ie the first gen starts-then as the load increases-the second starts and loads up.
Yes the tractor PTO units could be a problem for loads requiring precise frequency and voltage.I remember years ago a radio station studio that used a Craftsman genset as a backup-when you used it-it caused Turntable and tape machine motors to have unstable speed-lots of "wowing" on the air.The gen was replaced with an Onan unit that had better frequency and voltage regulation.The tractor units were a throwback to many years ago when they were used to help start large irrigation pumps that used to be used.With the older rural-from power electric systems they didn't like large loads being started-like the pump motors-so the PTO gensets helpted there-sometimes the pump and motor could be started from the tractors PTO itself with an override clutch-so when the motor started-it wouldn't affect the tractor-the pump motor could be higher HP than the tractor!These sismilar clutches are still used on large "batwing" mowers so when the tractor is shut down the spinning mower can't try to restart the tractor motor.I have seen these clutches on the tractors used to mow the towerfeild out here at my workplace-3,000 acre feild.

 

[yogitunes]

In case of emergency!

If necessary, go to CLOROX.com...they have a formula for using regular bleach (so many drops to a gallon of water and a waiting period) and this allows you to provide somewhat basic drinking water for emergency situations....

might help to print out for emergency use, you never know were you may be and need to use this!....never hurts if you have to use pond water or something that may not be considered safe....just a thought

 

[sudsmaster]

Oh yes, as I recall it's about six drops of bleach to a gallon of clear water, and then let sit for about 20 minutes. Turbid water should be filtered. Somewhere I also have a little drinking straw with a silver based disinfector inside it. Supposed to make questionable water OK.

We Californians are also educated to use all available water sources. Our water heaters are strapped to the frame of the house so they don't fall over and break a gas line. Also, we're educated NOT to use any hot water after a quake, but instead reserve that water for drinking etc. Same goes for water in toilet tanks - if disinfectants haven't been used they should be good for a few gallons as well. There's always a shovel and the back yard ;-).

Also have a well on the property, but would use that water for drinking only as a last resort. It could be used for light bathing and clothes washing, however. And the electricity would have to be on to power the well pump - perhaps a reason to think about getting a small emergency generator just in case, as well as to power the chest freezer and one fridge.