Buying Commercial Machines and comparison to domestic

[qualin]

This was in response to a previous thread where Supremewhirlpool and I were discussing issues in regards to Commercial Machines.

This in turn has created a few questions on my side:

Supremewhirlpool said:

> For a brand new Wascomat W620, I got a quote of $3845 from a distributor I knew.

Considering that a high end consumer grade machine is roughly around the $2k mark here, does that mean that most commercial machines with similar capacity of domestic models are about 2x that of TOL consumer models?

I've noticed that a lot of domestic machines now come with drums in the 5.0 cu.ft area, which is something generally reserved for commercial triple loaders.

> Due to an event that happened recently, I just won't be seen with an Alliance built Ipso,

Would you care to elaborate on this? I'm curious to know.

> The consumer sector and the Commercial sector are two totally different beasts.

I've noticed that commercial machines are generally designed to take a beating of which no normal domestic machine would be able to withstand. They're also designed so that you need special tools or keys to access things which wouldn't be required on a domestic machine.

The biggest thing I've noticed is the cycle and temperature selections, which are considerably more limited than what you'd find on a domestic machine. Then again, looking at Videos for Quantum Gold, they look infinitely configurable as long as you have the right computer equipment and software.

>E'lux selling Wascomats at retail for consumers is just a BAD idea.

I certainly would like to know why. They would be competing directly with Alliance in the home market.

> You have the cost issue,

For some people, dropping $4k on a machine is not unheard of. Now, dropping $12k on a machine is a whole different story.

> the requirements for the machines,

I can see how requiring 3 phase 230 volt power into a home would be a big problem. However, for the lighter duty machines, I don't see why 3 phase would even be a requirement at all. The W620 has a 25 lb capacity which is about the same as what you'd find on a domestic front loader.

> the repair bill when they break down,

I can see how that would be prohibitive, but could you cite an example or two?

> marketing is very different,

I can understand selling machines to the coin-op industry. Personally, this isn't an area I'm all that interested in, but you do drive a good point home. Commercial customers wouldn't be interested in "Powerfoam" or "VRT" techology, or other marketing gimmicks you'd find on a domestic machine.

> safety issues,

Now that I'm curious about. Obviously I can understand that these machines would most likely have to be bolted down to a solid concrete floor. They wouldn't care if your cat or dog climbed in and would wash it like everything else. However, could you elaborate on this further?

 

[launderess]

Am going to roll all those questions into one response.

There are basic commercial washing machines and there are those with microprocessor controls that allow full programming of each portion of a cycle from water levels, temperatures, wash action (rpms per minute tumbling), spin, etc. These setting normally are saved and given names such as "mops", linens hospital", linens hospital blood", "shirts", and so forth. It really all comes down to how much the laundry wants to spend and their needs.

Your basic "commercial" laundromat washer is designed to do one thing day in and day out; process laundry quickly to allow high turn over per washer to the owner can get more "money" per washer. No laundromat owner wants a conga-line of customers waiting hours for a machine. They may turn around leave and not come back.

It difficult to compare costs between a true commercial washer versus domestic. Much of what goes into many of the latter is "fluff" such as various cycles and other bells and whistles that don't really add much. Commercial laundry owners OTHO may care about frills but normally are more concerned about what is under the bonnet. If Madame's washer goes out she's out doing a few wash loads until it's fixed. When a commercial washer goes out that's money going out two ways: first it is not generating revenue, second one still has to pay for the unit even during down time. By this one refers to payments made if the unit isn't owned outright (leased, on credit, etc).

To the above commercial laundry owners are also concerned how long the washer will last. The idea of spending several thousand for a unit that will break down and basically isn't able to be repaired after about three years, just won't fly. By and large most commmercial washers are designed not only to be repaired but broken down and rebuilt. This is why you can find commercial washers >50 years old still chugging away.

Three phase powered motors are far more robust and longer lasting than single. Considering the duty cycles of commercial units are normally >25 or even >50 loads per day you want something that will do all that work day after day, year after year without complaints and last.

For some higher end quasi commercial/domestic washers such as those offered by Miele one cannot go by just what the machine "takes in" in terms of power requirements. Miele like many others puts various converters/inverters inside their units so even if the washer is using say 120v/single phase that isn't what is going to all parts of the unit. This does add to the cost of the unit but is still cheaper than one having to install proper converters and or inverters as separate units.

As for special tools and such for repair/access much of that has to do with keeping proprietary information about the product where it belongs. Miele does this for even their domestic products. Granted in the UK or EU it is easier to find parts and or other information on such appliances without going through Miele, here on this side of the pond we are usually out of luck.

Many commercial manufactuers of laundry equipment want nothing to do with domestic use unless like Alliance they have such a division. For one thing there are the legal liability issues involving safety. Then there is warranty support. Finally many commercial repairmen just don't want to deal with "Madame" or any other domestic user and either their misuse of the washer (then claiming it won't do with they want or was told it would do), or constant service calls because people don't bother to read directions, and so forth.

For commercial units there is also the fact service can take weeks or months,something many domestic users wouldn't stand for. I've seen washers out of service at our local laundromat for weeks or in one case months. There is an old saying that many laundromat owners and or those who run commercial laundries also are good repairmen. This is because many do much of the minor repair work themselves rather than have a washer out of service. Your average homeowner isn't going to have the proper tools, equipment, time or knowledge to pull and replace bearings, but you'd be surprised how many commercial laundry owners do and will.

 

[peterh770]

As a laundromat owner, I can say... (IMHO / YMMV)

1) Machines used to be priced at about $100 per pound of capacity. It's now closer to $150 or $175. However, commercial customers rare buy just one machine. Commercial distributes will charge a residential user/single unit purchaser the MSRP. And that does *not* include freight (from the manufacturer to the distributor), transport (from the distributor to the installation site), installation labor, site prep and taxes. So, the $3845 above might turn into a much higher number.

2) While 3-phase machines are available, most are now made single phase, thanks to the integration of inverter drives.

3) All commercial machines are good in doing the job for which they are installed. However, there is some quirkiness between brands, and it all depends on what the owner is willing to live with. For example, Wascos are very easy to repair, but are a bit less sturdy than they used to make. Dexters are extremely sturdy, but things like the door lock, gaskets, suds percolating out of the top of the machine are problems to me. I have never been impressed with the durability of Alliance commercial machines. I do not know how much Alliance has changed the original Belgium Ipso design, but I never liked Ipso to begin with.

4) Like the inverter drive, commercial are more computerized than ever. Each brand allows from some to total flexibility in changing the wash formula. However, most are a single change that applies to all cycles. Like #3 above, you have a certain amount of quirkiness in the computer that you have to decide what you will tolerate.

5) As far as I know, no commercial machine needs a proprietary tool to do a certain repair. You may need metric tools, but nothing that has to come from the manufacturer.

6) Nearly all machines need to be bolted into 6" of concrete. You can buy a softmount, but they are *extremely* heavy machine and will shake a mansion when they go into spin. All are gravity drain, most with no possible adaptation for a pump.

7) All commercial laundry owners work on their machines. Only when the repair really gets out of hand will they call someone to handle it. Thus, repair service calls are usually quite complicated, expensive and time consuming. For example, I would never attempt a bearing job, and am saving my pennies to call someone in to do it correctly, but everything else I do myself. You don't want to waste your money for something simple like a bra wire in the drain or a sock lodged in the outer tub -- something that would totally befuddle a domestic user.

 

[launderess]

Pump vs Gravity Drain

Wherein lies the rub:

If one wants truly commercial quality and results then IMHO you have to "sink a pit" and go with gravity drain. In so many ways one feels superiour results come from simply opening a valve and dumping water.

For one thing without a pump the washer is free to not only cycle faster but can get on with extracting even very sudsy water without worrying about choking said pump.

 

[circlew]

Actually I remember many appliance dealers offering commercial washers & dryers. The local GE dealer would have then on display from time to time, and the hardware store I once worked in that sold Maytag and Frigidaire could order them in. Swallen's always had Whirlpool coin-op models on display in their Fairfax store, and I think I saw Westinghouse commercial machines in there at some time. And of course, the Sears catalog featured Kenmore coin-op machines for many years. These washers were all top load with the exception of the Westinghouse front load. Owners of small apartment buildings were probably the most common customers to buy them at these stores.

 

[pulsator]

There is one commercial FL washer that isn't a rebadged Frigidaire residential machine with a pump! The Continental Girbau EH020. You can choose either pump or gravity drain, it can even come with a heater!

A friend of my boyfriend is planning on buying one for his new wife as she hates that you can't select specific temperatures (She's Russian) like she's used to. I'm quite jealous as I've been lusting after one of these myself!

http://www.continentalgirbau.com/opl/on-premise-washers-eh020.html

 

[mrb627]

Continental

The model with the heater requires 208/240v.

I wonder how connected CG is with Alliance. Clearly the dryer is the Speed Queen machine.

Would love to get my hands on the programming manual.

Malcolm

 

[qualin]

Thanks everyone.

I was on the verge of buying a machine such as this so I could get an inner tub that didn't have any plastic in it. Good thing that I didn't have to.

I've been contemplating the idea of starting my own laundromat for a while now, but I've been very leery because there are a lot of things I don't know yet.

Do most laundromat owners prefer to use gravity drain or pump drain? I've seen pictures of some laundromats where there will be a "Pit" between two banks of machines and then just a simple drain. I recall the issue with gravity drain is that if you have a bad seal, the machine can continue draining when it's not supposed to, so there's a situation where the clothes don't get clean and the water bill skyrockets.

I can also see an issue from a safety point of view that once you start a cycle, some machines don't give the user an option to pause or stop it.

I will admit, it is an awesome sight to see one of these machines try to break out of their hard mounts with a very unbalanced load. That also probably explains the slower extraction speeds I've typically seen with these machines.

 

[qualin]

To PeterH770

Peter, My e-mail address is qualin@n0$pam.shaw.ca (Get rid of the nospam part)

I have a bunch of questions to ask you in regards to your laundromat, but I wouldn't mind spending a bit of money to actually call you, would be a little faster.

 

[launderess]

"idea of starting my own laundromat for a while now....&

Yes, you would do well to speak with Peter and other actual laundromat owners.

In short it's not something to go into lightly and much harder than it looks.

Many people see the adverts in local news papers here put out by Alliance and other makers of laundry equipment about going into the laundromat business. The focus of such seminars is to get persons to part with large sums and sign on the dotted line for even greater sums (leasing of equipment, etc) to get the scheme going. Of course the equipment comes from Alliance, Wascomat and so forth so that is where they get their money out of it.

What happens is these poor souls have no clue what they are getting themselves into. Those machines must be kept running a good part of everyday in order to bring money to pay off debts including overhead before the laundromat owner even sees any sort of profit. This explains why (at least in these parts) many laundromats are either absentee businesses (usually the owner has several and or other money making ventures so he can *afford* to hire workers), or it's an immigrant usually with his family working all the hours God provides doing wash and fold service to make any money.

Where possible you want to own the building your laundromat is in or have a *very* long lease. Here most all commercial and residential leases cleary state anything bolted or otherwise affixed to the walls,floors, or other parts of the building belong to the landlord even if he gives permission. What has happened is a new person will lease a space and build up his laundromat business, only to have the lease not renewed at some point. Well now all that equipment (washers/dryers/etc) is sitting there and it's not unheard of for the landlord to get shot of the owner and turn right around and open up the mat himself already fully equipped.

There is a good website, CoinLaundry.com you might want to check out as well.

In short really do your homework! Just because most of us here like doing several loads of wash a day and or tinker with laundry appliances it in no way compares to washing hundreds of pounds of clothes per day.

Don't know about up north, but here in the United States Experian will furnish marketing data about a certain area. You tell them what parameters you are seeking and they generate reports. For a laundromat you need to know what established ones are serving a particular area you are interested in. What sort of business are they doing (strictly coin-op and or drop off fluff and fold), do they offer pick-up and delivery? Is the place clean and well run? How old is the equipment? What are his price points?

Where possible it is probably always better to purchase an exsisting business as opposed to starting up your own from scratch. An older mat is likely to have most of the equipment paid off so that is one less worry. Also you wont have the hassles of trying to compete. You can then make small differences such as changing the decor and other things that don't cost much to bring the place up while you are earning money. With a running mat you also will get a better idea of what your customer base wants/needs which is good for ordering new equipment.

 

[peterh770]

Bottom line: it is work. Do not confuse your hobby or something you do for fun with work. They are two completely different animals.

 

[coldspot]

I do not own a laundromat but the owner of the one near here will tell you how it is. He is 69 years old and this is all he has ever done. The place makes a good flow. But the machines are older I mean 1960's.

He keeps them up works on them his self. Only one thing in the place does not work no parts are made for it anymore and to remove it he clams it is heavy. That is a coin op do it your self press.

A few thing he told me is when you build the place like he did. You need a good spot, Then comes the hours he is 7am to 9pm. No wash to be started after 8pm. Tem hours he found works best. I ask why he said after 9pm you get trouble and problems from people.

This place is all self services. Man the machines are old even the lance machine is from the 1960's. Drink machine is around 1977. before that is was a bottole machine that took money.lol

Also he said places to set are the main thing he found people want. He is right I went to one that had no place to set and that sucked.

He has a bathroom and he keep it simple, Toilet a wall sink with just cold water and that is it. I ask why he said clean up and folks take things.

Another thing to think about money wise. Yes a front loader can save you money. But like he said most people go for top loaders only. That is why he has 40 top loaders GE about 1962.'

He has a total of 4 front loaders and they never get used much at all. And one large unit a new one that is ok. The old one was much nicer.

I ask about why he has not change the washer after all these years his reply was basic, They work and work good. He did think about going all front loaders but found they are not as easy to work on and get this hold more. Toploader holds less so more cash since folks need 2 to 4 at a time.

Would I own one no. Why a lot goes into it and unless that is all your going to do or have helpers your tied to it,

 

[coldspot]

By the way his dad was the first owner of the place and was built around 1951

 

[launderess]

Top vs Front Loaders For Laundromats

It is rare to find top loading washers in NYC area laundromats. Indeed one would venture to say the only commercial setting you'll see them are apartment buildings and or other places with route accounts.

In NYC laundries pay for water twice, once for incoming water and again for sewage so it pays to keep those costs down.

 

[supremewhirlpol]

Qualin:
I know too much about VFD's, inverters,and the such to use them in a commcercial FL machine. Yes they allow the machines to operate on 1 phase to otherwise power a 3 phase motor. The VFD's you find in the Wascos, Dexters, Alliance crap, etc. are the cheaper made ones in Nema 1X enclosures. So when a hose fails or breaks loose, gets the VFD wet in the NEMA 1x enclosure, you drop ~>=$450 to replace it, not including the tech that has to come out. Oh and yes you have to go to the manufacturer to get it. When I see decent VFD's in NEMA 4X enclosures in these machines, with decent protection circuitry, then and only then will I actually consider one as it is, otherwise any machine I get with one of these in it will get some modifications.

safety issues?

You'd have to fit these machines with E-stop circuits, safety fault switchs , and other stuff for the consumer, as either them or someone or thing stupid around them is just going to get hurt or killed using the machine as a play toy. Consumer sues the manufacturer and wins!

Other machine requirements?

Machines with dump valves need very good drains and plumbing. If professionally installed machines must pass code.

Alliance Gibbled up IPSO. I suspect they pulled a Whirlpool! I just won't be seen with the new Ipsos as every last model is electronic, the mechanical timer versions have been discontinued. Ipsos are now Allance machines, Have you forgotten how hard I ride the SQ Fanbois here? YOu have Alliance-Built TL machines with IPSO brand on them. I've never really like the construction of the Alliance FL machines, as that A-frame design always looked underegineered to me and of a inferior quality. I always see people with Alliance FL machines needing bearing kits, that's just no good. Yes the Ipso FL machines are no longer Ipso design.

Yes, I considered Girbau, as I have a distributor ~15mi from me. The problem I have with Girbau is that they aren't that popular, parts vendors aren't as plentiful compared to Wasco. Maytag(Primus), the same thing.

At this point as I see it, you won't really make any real money with a laundromat unless you have several and have a maintenance team to service the machines, other wise you'll just work yourself to death keeping things up, with little money.

 

[launderess]

"other wise you'll just work yourself to death keepi

There you go.

IMHO there is more money in route/drop off and or otherwise providing a laundry service than actually running a laundromat.

While running any sort of laundry is work at least service routes aren't dependent upon customers in a set area. One can have a greatly expanded service area long as it's managed well enough that costs aren't out of hand.

With more women entering the workforce more and more persons find less time to do any sort of household chores which explains the growth in home cleaning services as well. With laundry being one chore most persons hate doing anyway many appreciate not having to bother period.

All the laundromats in NYC offer extensive wash fold services with most doing >50% to even 75% (or more) of their business that way. During the summer months and or holiday season for instance our local is almost devoid of self-serve customers.

 

[gowest84]

I thought about it at one time

I did research and costed one out and I came to the conclusion that starting my own airline was easier. (OK, the only thing that laundromats and airlines have in common is that they require a great deal of capital on expensive machinery.)

Part of what is also important about location is that the lower the income is, the better chance you have getting steady business. The laundromats I also saw that had attendants in them, ones that spoke the native language (around my place in Phoenix, Spanish) and made sure that the place was taken care of.

For me, while I liked the idea of a laundromat, I don't have the skill or patience to fix my own machines. I'm not sure what I'd need to do to protect the machines or the place and while there would be a great deal of capital needed, would I be able to make the money back?

In the case of laundromats, if you're serious, take some wash and go to a few nearby. This is one business, at least in my mind, you cannot do enough research and planning.

 

[launderess]

Sadly Like Much Else Around Our Way

Local laundromats/dry cleaners tend to employ mostly immigrants, mostly illegal.

One knows this from simply speaking with the workers whilst the wash is getting on in the machine.

These persons do everything from running the wash/fold side of things to making deliveries in all sorts of weather.

Our local laundromat is owned by the man who own's the apartment building it resides in, so the workers are all hired directly by himself and he does nothing but collect the rent. OTHO no one knows how to service the machines and thus the mat has a service contract. It is not unusual to see one or more washers/dryers with out of order signs for weeks on end until they are repaired.

 

[qualin]

Thanks everyone.

All of you drive home some very good points.

So supremewhirlpol, you prefer Wascomat machines?

If I was going to seriously consider starting a Laundromat, I think the only way it could survive is if it did offer dry cleaning and wash & fold services as well as perhaps a pickup/delivery service to the area. Self-Service alone won't cut it.

Although, what I was focusing on mainly was the idea why more commercial manufacturers don't sell "home" versions of their commercial machines to the domestic market. Especially ones with commercial grade components.

It seems to me that Wascomat goes out of their way to make it difficult for a consumer to buy their light commercial on-premise laundry equipment. At least, that was my experience anyway. It was a lot easier buying Huebsch.

I think that the commercial entities could teach GE, Electrolux and WCI a big lesson on how to build machines if they did a better job targeting the domestic market. Especially the "Martha Stewart" types that want the best. Miele already is doing that to some degree and so is Alliance, up to a point.

When I was growing up, my father always wanted a larger commercial machine, like a 30 lb Wascomat, but of course it was cost prohibitive at the time.