Cascade phosphate free is getting TERRIBLE reviews by customers!

[sensi-temp]

I bought a new GE dishwasher about two years ago for a rental I have, dispenser has lines for how much to put in depending on water hardness. Manual says the same. My phosphate Cascade says to fill all dispensers completey full !! In my vintage GE I never use detergent in the pre wash, don't need to, and fill dispenser only 2/3 full, get better results than with full to the top. I have a softener as our water is very hard. My softener is a vintage Lindsay semi-automatic, at least 30 years old & works perfectly. AND it's tsp not stpp, tri-sodium phosphate !

 

[sudsmaster]

Here's an interesting article on consumer backlash against the phosphate ban in Washington State:

Troy Varness, general manager of Fred's Appliance Inc., of Spokane, says the company supports efforts to reduce environmental pollution, but the phosphate-free dishwasher detergents currently on the market are lousy.

Of the ban, he says, "I understand why they're doing it, and I agree with it, but, gosh, they need to come up with something that works. It just doesn't dissolve correctly. It gets into traps and pipes and it looks like a bar of soap melted in there. We end up making a lot of service calls because of it."

He adds, "A lot of it is education of the public. They automatically think their dishwasher is broken, but that's just not the case. They just have to do things differently. The No. 1 complaint we're getting is they're having to rewash their dishes."

Skirting the ban by driving out of county to buy detergents isn't necessarily a good option either, Varness says, because people typically buy the detergents in large quantities there, so they don't have to make frequent return trips, but such detergents have a shelf life because they have enzymes in them that die eventually.

"Then pretty soon they're no good either," he says.

I'm not sure about the claim that the enzymes "die eventually" (they aren't alive to begin with!), but apparently he doesn't know the trick involving buying phosphate free dw detergents (with fresh enzymes) and boosting them with STPP... LOL...

http://www.allbusiness.com/chemicals/agricultural-chemicals-industry/12275410-1.html

 

[mark_wpduet]

I received the STPP today........Now that I have it, can I just buy any cheap automatic dishwashing powder and boost it with STPP or no?

 

[sudsmaster]

Why not just try it? What do you have to lose? A few bucks for el cheapo dw detergent?

 

[rp2813]

Rich, I wonder if you are referring to "Grocery Outlet" where you found the phosphated Cascade. I was just there today and there's tons of powder and also liquid. I didn't check the price. I already have a decent stash that might "die" on me.

 

[frigilux]

One thing to be said for Consumer Reports is that when they say your product is lousy, companies usually get on the stick to make improvements. Let's hope this happens with the dishwasher detergents.

 

[launderess]

Lookee Here

There was a reason automatic dishwashing detergents escaped the early state bans on phosphates that affected laundry detergents. It is *VERY* difficult to find another substance that deals with hard water minerals and other functions across the board as STPP.

Find it rather interesting that less than two months after P&G yanked the old formulas of Cascade off my local supermarket shelves, it is back, well at least at the one place I've been to this week.

From this we can only take that P&G got an earful and more to the point bad press about their new products. In the old days housewives and others would have simply had to "man up" and take things on the chin, however this is the INTERNET era, and bad word can get around fast. Every maker of consumer products fears one thing, an army of angry homemakers speaking ill of something. When you are getting bad reviews on Youtube, Eopinions, Amazon.com and so forth, a company has to react.

Not one single phosphate free dishwasher detergent, even the green brands cleans as well as those with the stuff.

 

[launderess]

Enzymes "Dying Off" In Detergents

Well that is news a moi! Have been using enzyme detergents from the l980's and early 1990's from my stash that are cleaning just as well as when new.

Will grant that certain dishwasher detergents will degrade if not kept in the optimal conditions.

 

[mark_wpduet]

rp2813

I don't think your stash will die. The other day I was in my laundry room and had about 1/2 used box of Cascade powder that had been in there for (gosh) maybe three years, toward the back of a few other things. I put it there because I used it in the washing machine once. When I found it, I ran a cycle through the dishwasher and all the stains in the dishwasher came out. There were faded wine stains and a few other stains that had collected over the past couple of months from where I had been using phosphate free.....This is what made me decide to get some STPP, because I couldn't believe how better the interior of the dishwasher looked.....(this with a three year old box of Cascade).....so no, I don't think your stash will go bad anytime soon.

 

[sudsmaster]

Ralph,

Yes, I found the old stuff being cleared out at Grocery Outlet. I plan on going back tomorrow and doubling my stash.

Here's the situation. As of 7/1/10, 16 states enacted bans on phosphated dw detergent sales. At least to residential users. The members of the industry group (forget its name) voluntarily agreed to eliminate phosphates in all their DW detergents at the same time, across the nation. This sucks for those of us in the rest of the 34 states that don't have these ridiculous bans, which are largely symbolic and do little to rectify the environmental problem they are supposed to address. They actually make it worse, since people are finding they have to wash dishes twice to get them clean, now, wasting water and energy in the process.

But I'm preaching to the choir, mostly, here, aren't I?

Launderess, isn't NY one of the states that has banned phosphated dw detergents?

The rest of you: if your state has banned phosphates, then write your state representatives and demand that they rescind the ban. There are other, better ways to fight water pollution, such as tertiary water treatment and control of excess fertilizer runoff on both residential and agricultural lands - and pig farms in the south are huge polluters, as well.

 

[launderess]

Nope,

New York State did ban phosphates in commercial laundry detergents recently, but dishwasher detergents are still AOK.

Ecolab, IIRC still has some STPP laced detergents, but if you look at the packet or other information it states "not for sale in New York State....." and so on.

Again shelves were full of phosphate laden stuff before P&G got cute, but Finish/Electrasol tabs were still to be found, and they contain the chemical in question.

Methinks what it boils down to is as with much everything else, factories are concentrated in one area, making a product for not just a local region,but perhaps the entire country as well.

Remember Calgon powder had two versions; one contained phosphates and was sold where allowed, the other did not. That changed when the makers of the product decided to consolidate production and now only one powdered version is made, without phosphates. Amway's "Smashing White" and a handful of other water softeners that contained one or more types of phosphates did the same.

 

[lordkenmore]

"Methinks what it boils down to is as with much everything else, factories are concentrated in one area, making a product for not just a local region,but perhaps the entire country as well."

I won't disagree. But I find it ironic that that detergent companies have NO trouble finding the resources to make 89 different formulations of the same detergent brand (different scents, special additives of one sort or another, etc, etc, etc). Yet, they have trouble maintaining just ONE choice with phosphates.

 

[launderess]

Pssssst!

Peek at the Material Saftey Data Sheets for many versions of Tide detergent.

You will see there that most are *all* the same main formula, with only slight variations (scent, colour and perhaps a few other properties).

So it's like making a plain roux or white sauce. You get the basic thing down, then add whatever you want to make it "special".

 

[lordkenmore]

That figures, Launderess.

I suppose that it's more complicated adding a "pinch" of STTP?

 

[launderess]

Yes,

It took detergent makers years to find chemicals that could do what phosphates did, and even now it takes several things to do the job.

IMHO, one reason you are seeing the huge move to liquid and gel laundry detergents is they can be made with high levels of surfactants,and mainly use citrates as water softeners, avoiding the problems of sequestering water hardness via powdered builders.

 

[sudsmaster]

Since sodium citrate is a salt, I don't understand why it couldn't be added to various powders for semi-sequestration duties.

Unfortunately sodium citrate will never replace STPP in all its abilities.

And liquid detergents, in my experience, fall flat on their slurpy faces when they try to tackle really soiled fabrics. It's just no contest.

 

[jerrod6]

I am in a state with a ban so there will be no return of DW detergents with phosphates unless that ban is lifted.

I had potatoes au gratin again and washed the glass casserole dish. The last time I used Finish All in 1 tab, this time I used Cascade Complete all in 1 powder - both non phosphate. Results about the same. Clean but with a few pieces of potatoe left. So the stuff cleans but still not as well as if phosphates were included. I also noticed that I have two plates with something still stuck on them... this after a 170F, 73 minute wash. I don't like that.

 

[passatdoc]

phosphate DW deterent is still on the shelves in SoCal

But I took no chances. I bought four 100-count containers of Finish Powerball tabs....each should last about two years. By that time, they probably will have come up with a solution, and in the meantime my Bosch DW will be happy using a soap designed to get things cleans. By the time the Finish tabs are gone, the Bosch will be 17 years old!!

 

[passatdoc]

@Laundress

What's the formula variation for Tide's HE powder? They must do something to it to make it low sudsing. My folks use regular Tide in their TL and you can see it make a lot of suds in their machine. Tide HE in my FL isn't as good as say Persil, but the suds level is reasonably low.

 

[launderess]

One can look up recent information on P&G's website, but last time one checked, most if not all powdered versions of Tide including their "Pro-Line" had the same MSDS listing. *Think* the only difference for "HE" versions is they contain foam surpressing agents.

Since P&G now lists chemcial content for products on their website, that probably is a better reference. Material data safety sheets only cover potentially hazardous ingredients, not total contents.

L.

 

[jerrod6]

Tide He is low sudsing?

This stuff creates so much foam that I cannot use it because it doesn't rinse well. Ok it is lower than regular tide but I could do with less suds from Tide He especially their liquids.

 

[launderess]

Well Yes, But...

As one stated before, P&G did not create a special "HE" detergent from the ground up, but tinkered with the Tide formula already in production.

Indeed, IIRC of all the "HE" detergents from the main players, none were created as such from the start,but evolved from their high sudsing cousins.

Even the cheapest BOL European detergent makes less froth and rinses better, IMHO than many of the American "HE" detergents.
Why? Simply because by and large H-Axis machines dominate the market, thus products are designed to work under those conditions.

In order to make Tide truly low sudsing it would take a total change of surfactants, and that in turn means rejigging everything from chemical formulas to production plants.

 

[foraloysius]

Perhaps P&G don't care too much about too many suds anyway. I bought a bottle of Ariel Excel Gel, can't wash my towels with it because it foams up like mad even with the smallest amount used.

 

[passatdoc]

Und was würde Klementine davon sagen???

The year I spent the summer in Holland, we were close enough to the German border to be able to view one German tv station. At the time, I did not yet speak German, but I noted that the Klementine concept was a direct rip off of the Josephine The Lady Plumber ads for Comet cleanser. Josephine had been on US television since the very early 1960s.

What I failed to realize was that both Comet and Ariel are Proctor & Gamble products, and P&G was free to rip off their own idea. They probably assumed (correctly) that few if any German tv viewers had ever seen a Comet ad or had heard of Josephine The Lady Plumber.

Here is a link to a Josephine The Plumber/Comet ad.



The underlined link below is a Klementine/Ariel ad. (Niet oop Nederlands maar oop duits).

 

[polkanut]

I'll stick with my Hytron detergent. It's made here in WI, loaded with chlorine, and phosphates too. It is also certified to be used in institutional settings as well.

http://www.stearnspkg.com/all_tek/464tek.pdf

 

[frigilux]

They certainly did copy the Josephine model for that commercial!

 

[mrboilwash]

Klementine

Just watched the old Ariel spot and thought it may be worth to mention that Ariel being a bio detergent was marketed in the beginning as a powder for the prewash cycle. By the time of the tv spot it was emphasized to be suitable for the mainwash as well but only up to 60° ;-)
I still remember when they finally gave up trying to convince Germans to do without boilwashing. It was in the late 70s when Klementine pronounced: From now on you can use Ariel for all your laundry, no more need to buy a seperate boilwash powder !
It somehow reminds me of Miele and the lack of bleach dispensers in the States. They learned their lesson, today`s Ariel Excel Gel, even the color type is good for any temperature whereas Persil Arctic Power kicks out at 60.

 

[foraloysius]

In the Netherlands we had our own "Klementine" She was "Miep Kraak" from the "Huishoudservice". There is nothing about it on the internet anymore. The name is still used but by a service company that makes houses and gardens spic and span for selling.

 

[sudsmaster]

As I recall, European dw detergents contain chemcials called phosphonates. These have phosphorus in them but the phosphonate combination supposedly doesn't allow the phosphorus to promote algae growth in fresh water.

The hoopla about phosphate pollution of coastal waters is a big bunch of BS. Seawater already contains vast amounts of phosphate - a bit more from dishwashers and clothes washers isn't going to make any difference whatsoever. Untreated raw sewage high in nitrates is the problem, again and again.

To top all this off, only 10-15% of the phosphates in sewage comes from household cleaners. The vast majority comes from human waste (urine and feces). It is an essential nutrient, without which we would all die. Are we going to commit mass suicide by restricting the phosphate in our diets to satisfy some ridiculous environmental fantasy?

http://www.phosphate-forum.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=13&Itemid=40

 

[foraloysius]

Yes, European dishwasher detergents contain indeed Phosphonates, but my detergent (Somat) contains less than 5% of it. However there is more than 30% Phosphates in it.

I guess at the time phosphates were banned there weren't that many dishwashers in Europe and the wash results of detergents without phosphates were probably a disaster at that time. So removing it from the dishwasher detergents didn't bring a lot.

Removing it from laundry detergent was considered important because of the nutrification of lakes in the Netherlands and some other European countries as well. I've seen totally green lakes when I was young. In the years after the ban of phosphates the lakes got clearer and clearer so I guess the ban had it's purpose.

Nowadays it's possible to filter out phosphates so I think it would be a good idea to replace the zeolites etc. by phosphates again. Much better for the environment I think.

Phosphates pollution in sea water is indeed nonsense, as you stated in the past nutrification by phosphates only happens in standing water.

Here's the list of ingredients. There are three categories:

Less than 15%: Phosphonates
5 - 15%: Polycarboxylate, non-ionic Tenside (translation?)
Over 30% Phosphates
Other ingredients: Enzyme (Amylase, Protease), Scent