Chlorinated Dishwashing Detergent Today?

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washer111

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Trying to determine the usefulness of chlorinated automatic dishwashing detergent in today's world with modern dishwashers and the longer cycles they come with. 

Is chlorinated detergent still an option today? I understand it is highly effective at removing tea/coffee stains along with tomatoe stains and anything that could "hurt" plastic dishwasher tubs. But I'm more concerned about other daily soils (especially Protein!).

 

Main reason for asking is I am *considering* getting some of that "Chlorinated Hytron" and would like to know its effectiveness beforehand. Water in the house where the dishwasher is (is) soft. Detergent mainly to keep the DishDrawer tub and our numerous plastic boxes and the like stain free. Many of them are turning RED from spaghetti sauce and other (red) sauces!

Is there any difference between the Phosphate and Phosphate-Free versions of the detergent? I checked the data sheet available online and Phosphate content is <0.5% The Finish detergent we use currently appears to have ">30%" Phosphate according to the MSDS online (packing has no mentions of Phosphate free/laden).

 

All help appreciated!
 
IMHO

I think that phosphate and chlorine free dishwasher tablets are a lot weaker than the ones who have that in them. The phosphate free tablets leave an unpleasant white residue on the dishes which I believe is limescale or chalk. They do not clean well in general and I speak of the usage in Euro dishwashers which are naturally a bit more powerful than their US or Aussie counterparts.
 
Just buy Gel...

Pretty much any Gel based automatic dishwashing detergent, is Chlorine Based, and will give you the chlorine you want. Being as though, your in Australia, more then likely, you'll have access to Phosphate Laden versions, vs our Phosphate Free crap we can only buy here.

If your not a Gel person, try looking at Store Brand Powders, or Cheaper Brands. I'd assume a decent bit of them are still Chlorine Based, too.
 
Thanks!

Many thanks for your replies. As our government hasn't quite gotten around to "Phosphate Free" BS, we've been okay. Having tried one of the leading powders, there wasn't much to complain of, except the little rinse-aid bits that have stained the filters and sump area of the Dish-Drawer.

 

Whilst one is apparently "not supposed" to use gels in the DishDrawer according to the user-guide, I don't really think it is an issue, unless those detergents will turn into some sort of "fun-fair bubble bath" during a normal cycle! I'll have to give it a try - although I admit our choice in my locale is rather, limited to say the least. We have the Morning Fresh Gel in the "Eco" pouch (Phosphate Free) and in the squeeze bottle (Green and Purple), also phosphate free.  

I'll check the MSDS online and see if there is anything that might be helpful for me. 
 
Finish Gel Yellow version in Italy do contain chlorine  bleach and phosphates up to 30%... and a few other powders (all with STPP)...Fnish powder have phosphates but no chlorine.
*BUT*
Then, if the american  Institutional Cascade is  really like the "old"  REAL Cascade as they say, then it should contain  chlorine bleach also,  it  of course includes PHOSPHATES!!!
I do not know elsewhere......I think you might have to look into institutional stuff also.......

[this post was last edited: 8/26/2013-17:47]
 
Interesting

It appears my detergent already contains Bleach, albeit the oxygen type. 

 

http://www.rb-msds.com.au/uploadedFiles/pdf/Finish Concentrate Powder-v1-D0351343.pdf
 

Sodium Percarbonate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach
 

The one we're looking for *appears* to be Sodium Perborate, if Wikipedia is correct. 

 

And the "Morning Fresh" powder appears to have Enzymes, Peroxide and Sodium Caronbate... That seems counter-intuitive, unless we're talking Oxy Bleach...

http://www.pzcussons.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75&Itemid=69
 
Oxygen stuff  as perborate are bleachng agents, perborate also function as an alkali creating basic conditions,  but oxy stuff are anyway different than chlorine bleaching agents.....and chlorine detergents does not have enzymes.
In  dish-care-washing Oxygen bleaches if in right concentration and strongness (so using a well balanced detergent) can do a paragonable job as chlorine bleach,  consider the last one can be brought in powder and if you consider the  volume that perborate takes and the one the the chlorine powder takes, the chlorine powder  would  in  just a little more than 1/3 of those 3/3 of volume that perborate requires, do the same job, (you've to consider the fact that detergents containing chlorine often contains oxy bleaching also along), but, I could personally experience and heard that sometimes a bad stained yellowed tupperware, for example: An old  yellowed one where you  stored  glazed carrots for long time may still present a yellow/orange patina, ...as  for those VTG dishes (that I forgot the name of the material now) that  would absorbe food stains and particular food pigments such as beetroots, tomato sauce, gravy etc... so with some not so well balanced non-chlorinated powders, when most of the daily loads may get  fairly clean with the usual amount of product, you'd have to increase the dose of your oxygen based bleaching agent detergent for these others kinds of items, and, in case oxy bleaching agents are not brought in a fair percentage or in conditons  to act  well (like in case of premeasured tabs, or not much concentrated  or bad balanced powders * an ex: too many fillers* or about conditions: low temp washings, where oxygen stuff as percarbonate can't just give their best), you may possibly not get the same result as with a chlorinated, ( so in case of a bad balanced powder  would result in loosing a considerable quantity of surfactans and product just to increase qty of bleaching agents to get an higher bleaching action capable to get rid of such stains)....while usually with "chlorinated" detergents (that are generally considered as per their conformation to give a  more effective *in most washing conditons* bleaching action thanks to the presence of  chlorine, and also oxy stuff along) are able to prevent it to happen, thus cleaning whenever such conditions occurs....

[this post was last edited: 8/26/2013-19:27]
 
Well I am in the USA and where I live I cannot go to a store and buy DW detergent with phosphates or chlorine bleach. oxygen bleach yes.

I really think phosphates are better than without because I still have some old detergent containing it. When I run my DW with a detergent containing phosphates the soil sensor seems to shorten the cycle much more even with heavy soil than with the detergent without phosphates which tells me that the phosphate might be cleaning at least faster than detergent without.

Chlorine: Chlorine bleach and enzymes don't work well with each other because the bleach kills the enzymes. I have both and think that the enzymes give better performance than chlorine
 
stains

I have not seen any tablet ,pill, powder, gel, pac or whaterver!!! or any machine for that matter get tomatoe stains of PLASTIC !! someone have any idea? even LCB in the sink overnite dosnt work!!
 
 

If you want I can always ship you some Finish+enzyme+phosphates+perborate from Italy! 
smiley-laughing.gif
 
The Chemical in Question

It appears the chlorine used in chlorinated detergents is Sodium Dichloro-S-Triazinetrione dihydrate.

Googled the MSDS for chlorinated Hytron and got my answer. Now to just eBay some Cascade with bleach!
 
Usually Insitutional and or Commercial Dishwasher Detergents

Often contain chlorine for both cleaning and sanitizing purposes.

Chlorine bleach is aggressive to protein such as eggs which is another reason why automatic dw detergents contain the stuff. It also explains why one shouldn't use the substance on wool or silk.
 
get tomatoe stains of PLASTIC !!

You might try this, it's an old Tupperware hint.
Set the item out on a picnic table or patio and let the sun bleach it. I have seen it work on Tupperware, but it may be a different type of plastic. Worth a try.
 
Reqular Cascade Gel...

Contains Sodium Hypochlorite (Chlorine), while Cascade Complete contains Enzymes..

And the Cascade Complete (with Bleach Hydroclean Action) Contains both Sodium Perborate & Enzymes.. ;)in a Gel Compound.
 
My mother who was a Tupperware dealer in the early 60's for a time used to soak her Tupperware in the sink in hot water with a 50/50 mix of chlorine bleach and very hot water overnight. It always worked, even after storing meatballs in tomato sauce for a few days.
 
Yes bleach has same  function of enzymes when it comes to protein aminoacidic and any organic enzymatic dirts..... so your concerns about the lack of enzymes should not be so......chlorine do the job of enzymes as Launderess rightly pointed out.
Yes some new dishwashers in USA and way more frequently in Australia now have a different action based on  longer cycles and less  pumping-jet action  (European ones have been so since lot of time, even some longer in new models with  energy saving cycles, the new Euro machines I find do have  a  further weaker action and lower max temps also)  I guess their long cycles with a weaker mechanical action was supposedly (with no that much of avail IMO) meant to soak the dirt  (a more  water-static action  than mechanical/water jet-force one) so they have a way weaker washing action/splashes, IMO they're not even  remotely paragonable to the old machines that would litterally give you spotless dishes and  REAL "water splashes" which are actually able to wash as a   dishwasher is  supposed to do, so even the  tough infamous Lasagne burnt in food or dried on dirts that today's dishwashers faces  with  way more difficulties, real splashes actually reaching all the load properly, old machines (american machines) were also able to eliminate every trace of solid food through  their built-in  chopper/liquidizer (that in new models is disappearing and that I never seen in an Euro DW  or at least talian one built after the early 70s) instead than leaving that nasty layer of solid trash on filters trays and dirty dishes! So IMO the old were the better not only providing a quicker washing but a better quality effective/actual washing!
I don't think the two different kinds of powders would work better in  a type of machine rather than another....
Btw even in Europe there always been both  the chlorinated and enzmatic ones.....
 
@ eronie

Cascade Plastic Booster did a great job on orange-ish dyed plastics but they've terminated it.
 
Finish....

Michael,,,
Well if you want to try it let me know...really, no problem  to ship you some, rather glad!  20 bottles!  LOL Wow! I told you it's almost impossible to find bottles now, just bags of 2kg, but  can try,  again  I offer my disponibility to ship whatever you want! The more you ship the less is cost per Lbs, shipping lighter is always more expensive in term of cost per lb than when shipping heavier...  I mean if shipping 1 lb may cost you 10, shipping 3 would cost 20, 4 would cost 25 and so on...I'm serious if you want just drop me some lines in PVT on here and will let you know cheapest shipping quote I can get....
 
I don't know why some people finds yellowed tupperware and plastic such a though job...I could also attend  professional kitchens where "plongeurs" could say they tried any sort of way to wash them with no avail, when actually personally for me at home and in such occasions a wash and eventually an overnight soak in the sink with bleach always worked out perfectly...I was always seen as a sorcerer after getting them done....
 
I use...

Cascade Complete with Bleach Hydroclean Action (it has Oxygen Bleach, and is Power Packed with Enzymes) and it easily cleans away the nasty stains off our tubberware, and it ALWAYS comes out sparkling.

Keep in mind, my version is Phosphate-ed but still, I don't think one should have less then similar results, even with the new formulas.
 
Another Idea.

Cascade used to recommend (when there formula was Chlorine Based) mixing One Tablespoon to 2 Quarts water, as a presoak, or to remove grease.

One Could try 1-2 Tablespoons, of Cascade Gel (the Regular, Lime Green Bottle, without the Complete logo) and allowing the solution, mixed with HOT Water to soak overnight.

Bet, it would sure remove the Tomato, or Other Plastic Staining.
 
My impression is that the chlorine in older dw detergents was a chlorinated TSP.

It' my experience that older dishwasher with short wash cycles (like the 15 minute cycle of the 1958 KD2P) work better with a chlorinated powder. I was able to find some of that under the Sun brand at a Mexican grocery about five years ago, but I haven't seen it there in the last couple of years. I think the modern enzyme dw detergents require a longer wash time for the enzymes to work their best. Too bad for us with older, faster vintage dishwashers, I guess.
 
Sun-bleaching...

...might also work. Oxygen-based bleach seems to be a bit weak... It does a good job on tea, coffee and spinach but tomato and carrot are really tough, though.
 

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