Confessions of a Phosphate addict.

[sudsmaster]

Silicates in liquids

I don't see any reason why a liquid laundry detergent couldn't have silicates. However it may be that they are not needed in most liquid detergent formulations.

If the label lists "washer protection agents" or similar ingredient, then that means the product probably has silicates in it. However I note that in various ingredient lists (see link below), silicates seem to be associated with the presence of sodium carbonate (washing soda). My conclusion is that sodium carbonate is the main culprit in corrosion of washer parts, and the silicates are added to counter this corrosion.

Liquids usually have sodium citrate added as a water softener instead of sodium carbonate. I'm guessing that sodium citrate either doesn't attack washer parts like sodium carbonate does, and/or it has some built-in protection against such corrosion to begin with.

http://www.pinstripesandpolkadots.com/detergentchart.htm

 

[AZREOspecialist]

What on earth are you people washing in your dishwashers that you need phosphates? I use non-phosphated Cascade Complete powder in my Miele La Perla and everything comes out clean as a whistle. In fact, it's impossible to get the dishes any cleaner. Do you guys have really hard water or put chocolate cakes in your dishwashers? LOL

 

[whirlcool]

No, just regular dinnerware, flatware and cooking utensils.

The reason we use phosphates is that so far the non-phosphated DW detergents leave white spots on your washed items. Then it leaves a coating or white film all over the interior of the dishwasher. And it also ruins aluminum cookware, turns it black.
Use a phosphated detergent one time and all of this goes away.

The reason you are probably not experiencing this is because your Miele has a water softener built into it. Most American machine do not.

 

[a440]

So Excited!!!

I am so happy! By chance or should I say luck, I found 50 boxes of the original Cascade with Phosphate with Bleach for $3.50 a box. They are 75 Ounce boxes! Most were still in the original cases! The cashier looked at me like I was crazy when I got to the check out. She asked if I was going to buy all of them. I just looked at her and said I have a lot of dishes to do.
Funny how much I missed this wonderful smell! By luck I had two dishwashers filled that I was going to run tonight when I got home. The whole house smelled wonderful.
I have been using the STTP mixed with regular detergents. I found it worked better, but not as good. Not sure if that was in my mind or not.
Can you tell I am on cloud 9?
Brent

 

[whirlcool]

I Hit The Motherload Today..

We were out to pick up dog food and I noticed a Dollar Store right next to the PetSmart store. So after we picked up the dog food, we went into the independent Dollar Store. It looked like a Chinese Bazaar inside, and was operated by some Chinese women. We looked around and when we got to the detergent aisle, I was floored!

They had cases and cases of the Original Green Boxed Walmart Great Value DW detergent! This is the good phosphated stuff that Consumer Reports gave a "Best Buy" to.

I counted 10 cases and the woman said they have more in the back. And they were selling the boxes for $1.00 each! (64oz box)I couldn't believe my luck! So we bought 12 boxes, which should last us over a year!

I quickly shrunk wrapped the boxes and put them in our closet. They should stay nice and dry there.

What a find, eh?

 

[westie2]

What a find for you.

  We are down to about 5 months for us but I do have the phosphate to add.

 

[whirlcool]

It's been just over a year since the phosphated stuff went away. How is everyone's stash holding up?
Do you think that the manufacturers have come up with a suitable solution for phosphate replacement yet?

 

[joe_in_philly]

From what I have seen online, the Finish Quantum seems to be the best phosphate-free detergent available. Just about anything seems to work with my water/dishwasher, but some friends were having problems with the phosphate-free Cascade powder. They switched to the quantum and they have been very happy with it.

I have noticed that the Finish Quantum has better bleaching abilities than phosphate containing Cascade. The stains from white cutting boards are not completely removed with the Cascade, but come out completely white with the Quantum.

 

[a440]

I have been lucky to find quite a bit in the Atlanta area.
Yes I know I do sound like a hoarder....
I now have 90 75 Oz. boxes of Cascade Complete with Phosphates and Bleach.
The total for all of these boxes so far has been about $130.00. I am not complaining in anyway! Esp. when I see this same exact stuff for sale on Ebay and Amazon for on average at $25.00 or more a box!!!
I think I will be okay for awhile.
I just can't pass it up when I find it!
Brent

 

[a440]

Correction on the price total.
Don't know what I was thinking...
I have paid so far about $280.00 for the 90 boxes I have found.
I get them on average at about 3 to 5.00 each.
Still think it is a bargain.

 

[labboy]

I still have several boxes of phosphated Cascade Complete. Finish Quantum is the best phosphate free formula I've found so far...great cleaning, no white film, no excess foam and good bleaching ability. Only drawback is the price.

 

[whirlcool]

It seemed that when Finish Quantum first came out it was very expensive! IIRC, it was something like $9.00 for 12 tabs or something like that. The price has now come down, I have even found a 25 tab box bundled with a bottle of Jet Dry Turbo for $5.00 at Target recently. That's less than .20 per wash.

Cascade really has taken a dive in the ratings. They used to be one of the top brands. I do have a few packs of their phosphated stuff with Dawn in it and it still works good.

 

[jerrod6]

My stash is holding up fine.  I alternate detergent brands every week.  Last we I used Miele tabs with phosphate, this week I am using Quantum non phosphate tabs.  I also use the newer version of Finish powder non phosphate but  now with enzymes and that works well too.  Mostly I am using the non phosphate detergent and every once in a while I go to the stash and use phosphates for one week.  Good old Electra Sol 3 in 1 tabs with phosphate work well too - even though these are several years old.

 

I only wash  completely full loads so that's about a run every other day(no runs on the weekend) so my stash should hold for a while.

 

[mixfinder]

Ready to Snort

I used a 20 pound box of STPP and counldn't tell a difference so I didn't bother replacing it.  I just got a second shipment to have it for dishwasher additive and I'll keep some next to the washer for grungy loads.

 

[whirlcool]

After mixing in STPP with non phosphated DW detergents I have found that the STPP stops the harmful effects of the non phosphated detergent, but is still not as good as a phosphated detergent from the factory.

That's why I am so glad I found the "good stuff" mentioned above.

 

[sudsmaster]

I have found that

STTP sure has made a difference in laundry, esp for cleaning mineral laden soil from whites, even with relatively soft (4 grain) water.

Haven't had to try non-phosphated DW detergent yet, and since I put away a sizable stash of phosphated stuff last year, it might be many years before I have to try adding STPP to the newer stuff.

In a dishwasher, the water softness out of the tap might make a major difference, as well. More so than with laundry, because in general we don't add mineral soil to our dishware, but it is a common substance present on work clothes etc.

 

[Robbytuck]

Re: Phosphate "Junkies"

Have to agree with the all members of the "Phosphate Users Anonymous Program".

Earlier the year, I experienced the same "loss of performance" in my 3 yr old Maytag portable dishwasher; cycle options remained unchanged 99% of time (Cascade Complete Powder. normal wash, high temp rinse, no heat dry.

Problem with the Maytag? NO.. after close friend who works for local authorized repair company came over and gave it once over.

Subsequently I begn to read about the formula changes that were Federaly mandated.
Like many if the other members, I started to experiment with other brands and format ie: liquid, powder and the "tabs". After about a month of this "chemistry experiment, I found STTP at my local Ace Hardware.

The rest is all history. My final "receipe" is: 2 Cascade Complete tabs, 1/2 tablespoon of STTP in both main and prewash chamber, Normal Wash with High temp, rinse agent dispenser re-set to "5" ( we have very hard water. Yes, 2 tabs, one tossed on the door and second in the " Main Wash" chamber of the dispenser.

End result was no more pre-rinsing, "yiblets" left in glasses and no more grumbling from my spouse each morning when he pours his glass of orange juice!

Have a great weekend,

Bob

 

[DADoES]

STPP or TSP

 
redacted[this post was last edited: 8/27/2011-19:03]

 

[launderess]

TSP

One knows everyone goes on today about STPP and how TSP is "bad", but being as that may several of my vintage commercial laundry manuals recommend the latter as a water softener/builder. True they go on to extoll the virtues of polyphosphates, but if TSP was all one had acess to..............

While TSP is very alkaline, so is washing soda and persons often heave tons of that substance in their washers.

 

[whirlcool]

And before painting a room you can wash your walls with TSP to take the gloss off the walls to get better adhesion of the paint! I think it is much to alkaline to use on today's fabrics.

 

[sudsmaster]

As I recall, TSP is less alkaline than sodium carbonate (washing soda). So one need not worry on that account if boosting detergent with TSP.

The main problem with TSP would be that, like washing soda, it will form a precipitate with minerals in the water or in the laundry. This could show up like lint on fabrics, and like cement on washer parts.

TSP does a great job etching painted surfaces to prepare them for repainting.

However if it is not completely rinsed off, its residual alkalinity could adversely affect the new coat of paint.

I just got through prepping and repainting a badly weathered coat of paint on my garage. I did use a combination of TSP and bleach, diluted, to wash the surface. However I followed that up with a diluted vinegar rinse to neutralize the residual alkalinity.

 

[launderess]

Did Some Further Research

On "vintage" laundry methods using washing soda and or TSP for softening water and "breaking".

It seems long as wringer washersor mangles were the norm neither of the above was "that bad" since laundry was lifted out of wash tubs and the water squeezed out. Even early pony and other H-Axis washers were not a huge problem because well rinsed laundry would be removed and either put through a mangle or into an extractor. Much of the "gunk" settled to the bottom of the tubs and would be gotten rid of when water was changed.

Things changed once automatic washers/extractors became the norm, especially top loaders. Now all those hard water minerals combined with soap/detergent and so froth was often drained through the wash (neutral drain) and or flung about after the first cycle or subsequent cycles depending upon how well the machine drained.

Finally as one has often stated, a trained laundryman didn't just bung heaps of washing soda, TSP or even STPP into a wash wheel. Rather they always aimed for a certain pH level of water and used no more product that would get them there.

 

[a440]

Phosphates making a comback?

I am finding more and more dishwasher detergent with phosphates....

Kroger brand "Value" with bleach & Phosphates. 65OZ box for $1.99. Bought several.

Asked the stock guy if this was new old stock. He scanned the bar code and said that it was NOS and they have another huge shipment coming soon.

The Kroger brand smells just like the Cascade with bleach.

I wonder if the manufactures have found some loop hole around the new laws?

I bought 4 boxes. Will use and if good will go back and buy more....

Brent

 

[a440]

Typo....

Was not NOS (new old stock) He said it was current stock that
was manufactured a month ago.

 

[combo52]

CONSUMER REPORTS TESTS DW DETERGENTS

Just got my October issue this morning and they tested many DW Ds and found most if not all leave white film on glasses in hard water after just 20 washings.

 

As a big environmentalist myself I do believe that this is the worst thing that was ever signed into law as they should made sure that the new stuff worked before it was required. I tell all my customers that are upset to contact thier legislators, this can be overturned. This might be a good reason for a ballot drive and take it to poplar vote.

 

In our area new DW sales are up over 25% as everyone that has a machine that is over 5 years old and its leaving film on dishes thinks that the machine is worn out and replaces it. It will also be interesting to see if there is a spike in clogged kitchen and main drain lines in homes.

 

[whirlcool]

I've heard that too from neighbors who have a SS interior on their DWs. They are saying that the interior is all streaked and cloudy and therefore the dishwasher must not be cleaning properly. I usually give them a few tablespoons of STPP and tell them to try that and I let them know where to buy it. Usually I'll hear, "and we were getting all set to go dishwasher shopping!". Little did they know that the new dishwasher will do the same thing.

Which DW detergents did CR like the best and what did they say about the lack of phosphates?