CR: New SQ Front-Loader Leaps Up Ratings List

[frigilux]

Bob-- Thanks for all the great water level/temp information! I've copied and printed that post so I can do the same with the Maytag for comparison. The next few weeks are going to be brutal work-wise---yesterday was the first day in ages that I didn't have time to pay a single visit to AW---but I'd like to have that arsenal of information for my machine as well.

Would also like to figure out if the water heater is engaged whenever Extra Hot is selected or if that occurs only on certain cycles. Is it possible that information is available in the service manual?

Gansky-- I like having access to CR Online, but wish they'd offer more specific testing information. I detest their signature red dot/black dot rating system. They rate tested items using a 1-100 scale so why not just give us the numbers? Example: Let's say a washer gets a cleaning performance rating of Very Good. I want to know exactly where in that 20-point spread the machine scored. If the 'Very Good' range is from 60-79 points, my decision on whether to purchase that washer would depend very much on whether it scored a 61 (only a point or two away from the dismal 'Good' rating) or a 78.
I think the rest of their testing methodology has actually improved since their vintage years, but the tells-us-very-little red/black dot system is a terrible waste of the specific information they gather during testing. If they don't want to abandon their beloved dots, at least make the exact numbers available as an incentive to buy their online subscription.
[this post was last edited: 9/30/2015-07:16]

 

[twintubdexter]

If I'm ever in the market for a new washer, I don't think a built-in water heater would intrest me. Anything that uses additional electricity is something I avoid. And those "test stains" really don't interest an old man like me either. Other than wine, oldsters don't need to be concerned about things like oil and carbon and I haven't sweated since 1999. For me, another catagory called "bathroom accidents" would be helpful.

 

[iej]

I'm not sure I agree with these huge capacity machines being more efficient as how often are they actually used full on a long wash cycle?

 

[launderess]

Have Two German Washing Machines With Heaters

And am here to tell you that aside from perhaps the longest wash cycles the heaters do not come back on once the set temperature is reached. In fact often not even then. Thus have never witnessed any of this talk about heaters required to maintain temps.

Posted this before that when one had a Malber washer which did not have a heater would do a cold or warm prewash followed by a hot fill wash. Measuring the water after main cycle as it drained there was not that much of a temperature drop. Indeed if one did a short spin between pre-wash and main cycle the difference was even less. On rare occasions when wanted to do a "boil wash" and added a kettle of hot water heated on stove again, the difference between initial temp and what came out after the wash was not that great.

SQ's domestic front loaders are taken from their OPL machines and as such a quasi-professional machine. In fact under the bonnet there aren't much different between these offerings (sold under various names including IPSO) and their hard or soft mount laundromat/professional machines.

Over on a coin laundry website's forum a member posted he could reach "higher" wash temperatures when using hot water if the programmed his machines to do a short spin between the cold or warm pre-wash and main cycle.

Historically commercial washing machines sold in the USA didn't bother with heaters for a simple reason; between short cycles and centrally heated water that could be in excess of 140F it just wasn't needed.

Commercial washers are built to do one thing; process loads of laundry quickly. The longest cycle in the new SQ front loaders at local laundromat is about 33 minutes for machines rated between 20 to 50 pounds. If one knows what one is doing (and one does) perfectly acceptable results can be obtained. This versus using my Miele or Lavamat that takes over one hour to do just eleven pounds of wash.

 

[washer111]

Thats an interesting point you have Launderess. 

 

I have found our 2012 Miele W5741 will maintain wash temperatures - you can hear the relay "clack," and some fizzling sounds begin during the pauses between tumbles, most particularly on 60º and hotter cycles. 

The door glass, too, remains warm through the cycles. 

 

I guess there might be *some* differences between a 1980's/1990s Miele and one from 2-3 decades later. Same with the AEG....

 

[logixx]

Same here

I was doing some cleaning in the basement and was pleasantly surprised to hear the heater click on and off in almost one minute intervals even towards the end of the 140F main wash.

 

[launderess]

With the Miele w1070 there is no mistaking when the thermostat engages heater as there is a very audible "click" or "clunk" if you like. If one wishes to shorten wash times once that sound happens can merely turn the timer a bit and it will advance out of the heating portion. Indeed the owner's manual states clearly one can do this if wished.

On the Lavamat the "click" is less loud but none the less if one listens you can tell when the heaters are engaged and or disengaged.

Now suppose if one's washers were located in a very cold/unheated area such as a basement or garage where heat loss might be greater thing would change.

This experiment is easy enough to replicate. All one needs is access to the drainage stream from washer and a thermometer.

 

[DADoES]

 
I just perused the service manuals for the "old" Neptune frontload models with water heating.  The documentation says the heating turns on/off to maintain +/-5°F of the target.  Maximum heating time is the time of the wash period.

Cold temp with Stain Treat option and water heating option engaged will heat to 65°F if needed.

Warm temp with water heating engaged or Stain Treat is 105°F.

Hot temp with water heating option engaged or Stain Treat is 130°F.

 

[brucelucenta]

Speed Queen is fine for laundromats. For home I want something not "old school". There have been quite a few improvements in the past 25 years you know. My LG made front loader does an excellent job of cleaning and extracting the water and partly that is due to heating the water to sanitize things. Besides, who wants the same washer and dryer for the next 25 years anyway? Join the 21st century.

 

[stricklybojack]

.
Well i do for one...
It's part of why pickup trucks remain so popular. Tired of flimsy junk, give me something sturdy please.
Oddly i prefer coffee from paper cups, go figure.

 

[launderess]

It really does depend on one's habits

If you have a large household and or need to do more than say two loads per day every day, then you probably are better off with a quasi-commercial machine like SQ or some sort of OPL machine. That or go for a Miele.

Every single front loading washing machine is designed for a certain duty cycle. That is total number of cycles within a determined useful lifespan. Miele and other European machines at one time and or even now determined this to be fifteen to twenty years.

When you consider so many domestic washers sold today are not designed to be repaired there is that as well.

 

[frigilux]

Number of Cycles in Lifespan: I wonder if the total number of cycles run to date is hidden somewhere in new machines. I'd love to know how many cycles have been run when the first repair is needed, for instance. Given the $$ put forth for the Maytag 8100's, I'm betting they will be the first laundry pair I keep until it's no longer possible to fix them.

Miele-- Don't they recommend no more than 2 loads per day? Thought I read that in a post somewhere here at AW.

SQ-- I think they made great strides to provide the durability of a commercial machine along with the cycle flexibility and other features in washers made by other manufacturers. I really wish they'd add a water heater, as that seems to be the deal-breaker for those of us used to boosting wash temps.

 

[mr_b]

Just a Thought.

How hot does an internal water heater heat the water? For a few hundred dollars one could add a small external water heater just for laundry that is set to the desired temperature. The cost savings of buying an LG, Samsung, etc. without the water heater option plus the cost of the external water heater may make the total cost close to buying a washer with this option built in. And you have the added bonus of saving time not waiting for the washer to heat the water. Just a thought.

 

[launderess]

@Friglux:

Have to find the bookmarked site that gave Miele's lifespan for washers. In the meanwhile this is a start.

http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/...8-how-long-should-a-washing-machine-last.html

It does seem more than two or three loads per day each week ranks as "high" usage for a domestic front loader.

@Mr.B

Washing machines with internal water heaters use an immersion method. That is some sort of pipe or immersion heater (former usually heated with steam and the latter by electric) that will raise water temperature until a thermostat is satisfied. Not that much different from the open heating elements found at bottom of many American dishwashers.

Historically one of the arguments against washing machines heating their own water was the time spent doing so. Unless you are using a good amount of steam (which offers one of the best thermal transfers), a large fire, very powerful electric elements or whatever it is going to take time to heat water. How much time is an easy sum to figure. See: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-work-energy-d_292.html

 

[logixx]

Miele claims that their washers are made to last 20 years, which they say is the equivalent to 10,000 operating hours.

 

[whirlykenmore78]

A booster heater:

Such as those used to reach required rinse temps on commercial dishwashers would overcome the no heater issue. Only instead of the 185-190 temp set it to 165 or so. As the booster sits right next to the machine it supplies you would get instant hot water into the machine that should warm things up quite nicely.
WK78

 

[appnut]

There are significant benefits to have water heated gradually to very hot.  Deals with all types of stains in one go.  Why I say European approach to laundry is far more civilized.  I never want to go back to the days when I had to look at every garment contained in a load to see if it had a stain I had to keep an eye out to make sure it was washed out.  I spent as much, if more time having (and manipulating) the Lady Shredmore go through a cycle with extra rinse because of its poor rinsing looking through the entire next load.  And by the time the wash & extra rinse was done, it was time to load the next load and start the process all over again.  Laundry day wore me out.  Not with my front loader.  I push buttons and let the machine do its thing while I'm either entertained watching it run through the cycle or go do cooking or house cleaning.  My water bill is significantly lower in the winter, my clothes are guilt-free stain free, I'm not tired, and can multitask.  I did 10 loads this past weekend and wasn't as tired as the old days with the Lady Shredmore.

 

[launderess]

Using a booster heater

Only thing would be to consider the washer's hoses and valves. One or both are usually rated for a max hot water temperature.

 

[mrboilwash]

Wouldn`t a booster heater just set protein based stains instead of improving stain removal like an internal heater does ?

 

[askolover]

Yes Launderess:

"Only thing would be to consider the washer's hoses and valves. One or both are usually rated for a max hot water temperature."

 

My Miele W1986 says max hot water supply temp 140F.  Not sure if the Asko has a max temp listed, I'll have to look for the owner's manual (if I can find it, haven't seen it since we moved here in 1998).  I replaced the hot valve on the Asko just this year.