Democratic Convention in Denver

[~sudsshane]

Dan~

with all due respect, you just don't get it do you? Chuck, as always, I am in full agreement with you. The fact that Obama sat in that church for 20+ years and has CLOSE and PERSONAL ties with Rev. Jeremiah "God Damned America" Wright, DOES and SHOULD matter! The issue is judgment here. Same thing goes for Obama's ties to the domestic terrorist, William Ayers, Louis "Judaism is a gutter religion" Farrakhan and Tony Rezko. I got news for the nay sayers. This issue will continue to resonate with many moderate to conservative Democrats as well as some independents. If you think not, you are sadly misinformed. My grandmother always said if you lie down with the dogs, you may wake up with fleas. When you are running for the most powerful job in our country,judgment does matter, at least for me it does.

I watched the speech last night during the Super Bowl, I mean The DNC, and thought many parts of it were eloquent and well stated. I can now understand to some degree why many people are excited about Obama. This is history and I think it is great to see a minority come this far. On the surface he is very appealing to many.He has a beautiful family and an interesting biography. I get this..

This, however doesn't mean he is ready to assume the most powerful office in our country. Experience may not matter to some on this site, but it does for me. Especially when we are in the middle of 2 wars, the crisis in Pakistan and Georgia, The looming threat of Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan, etc.. etc. 9/11 was personally a very traumatizing experience for my family. I sometimes feel as if the Democratic Party has forgotten about that horrible day. I was dissapointed to see not ONE reference to that fateful day during the DNC. It's like a distant memory to some. I want our country to remain safe and protected. John McCain gives me assurance he will do just that.

I would have loved to vote Democrat straight down the line this year, but sadly I feel my party has abandoned the moderate to conservative wing, in favor of the far left liberal wing. Whatever the outcome of this historic election, obviously I will accept it and support the new President. Honestly, with either candidate, it will be an improvement compared to Bush

In the end we all have to vote our conscience. My conscience leads me to John McCain.

 

[~sudsshane]

Chuck, as always, I am in full agreement with you.

Minus the McBush part...

 

[~sudsshane]

Hi Ralph~

Regarding Gov. Sarah Palin. I have said for some time to my partner that she would be a good fit for McCain. The is red meat for the GOP base and will ensure they turn out for McCain.

While I don't agree with her on some issues, she was his most logical choice. Obama’s people are already trying to smear Palin’s name. They did their homework and were quite eager to post stories about Palin being investigated for pressuring to have her ex-brother-in-law fired. What they didn’t bother mentioning was that this same guy was caught driving under the influence while in a patrol car, that he was hunting out of season, I believe that’s also called poaching, and he tasered his own son. They also forgot to mention that an ongoing investigation has yet to find any wrongdoing on Palin’s part. I am certain she has been fully vetted on this and other issues that could arise.

I am interested to see how she stacks up to blowhard Biden in the debates. That should be interesting.

 

[~sudsshane]

Hi Ralph~

Regarding Gov. Sarah Palin. I have said for some time to my partner that she would be a good fit for McCain. The is red meat for the GOP base and will ensure they turn out for McCain.

While I don't agree with her on some issues, she was his most logical choice. Obama’s people are already trying to smear Palin’s name. They did their homework and were quite eager to post stories about Palin being investigated for pressuring to have her ex-brother-in-law fired. What they didn’t bother mentioning was that this same guy was caught driving under the influence while in a patrol car, that he was hunting out of season, I believe that’s also called poaching, and he tasered his own son. They also forgot to mention that an ongoing investigation has yet to find any wrongdoing on Palin’s part. I am certain she has been fully vetted on this and other issues that could arise.

I am interested to see how she stacks up to blowhard Biden in the debates. That should be interesting.

 

[dalangdon]

Oh Shane, I get it. And I get you.

"Experience may not matter to some on this site, but it does for me. Especially when we are in the middle of 2 wars, the crisis in Pakistan and Georgia, The looming threat of Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan, etc."

Who started those wars, Shane? Who caused that crisis? Where, after six long years, is Osama Bin Laden? Why is Al Qaeda still a threat to us, Shane? Why is the Taliban still a threat? How many billions of dollars have we thrown at this Shane? Why no results yet?

"9/11 was personally a very traumatizing experience for my family. I sometimes feel as if the Democratic Party has forgotten about that horrible day. I was dissapointed to see not ONE reference to that fateful day during the DNC. It's like a distant memory to some."

I've got news for you, Shane. It wasn't just "your family" that was traumatized on 9-11, it was all of us. But some people - rational people, who don't rely on simple-minded soundbytes - expect more from our leaders, and don't feel the need to bring up 9-11 as some sort of crutch to beat the American people with. Again, Shane, where is Osama Bin Laden? Why have we spent billions on finding him, spent more time than it took us to fight two fronts in WWII, with no sign of him?

"I want our country to remain safe and protected. John McCain gives me assurance he will do just that. "

How, Shane? How does John McCain assure you of that? By supporting a stupid war, started on absolutely no justification, that has killed thousands of people, and cost of billions of unaccounted for dollars? By appointing a ditz of a Vice-Presidential candidate, whom he has apparently never met before yesterday, who has no idea of what a Vice-President does? How does he make you feel safe, Shane?

How will we remain "safe and protected", when we've been financing two wars on credit? What makes us safe when your candidate says that he's be happy with us there for a hundred years? How will we pay for that, Shane?

All of these facts are staring you in the face, but you fall back on some over-hyped story of a minister on Chicago's south side, because that's about the only thing you have to fall back on. That makes it all OK.

Oh yeah - I get you.

 

[perc-o-prince]

don't feel the need to bring up 9-11 as some sort of cru

I do agree 100% with that part, Dan. Hell, even Family Guy spoofed it. All Lois had to say for an answer was "9-11" and the crowd went nuts applauding.

Shane, I don't think anyone's forgotten about it, but I don't think there's a need to bring it up unnecessarily. As long as we've learned from it and are doing what we need to to make sure it doesn't happen again, that's the important thing. Now, if only we were true that we were actually doing that. Why hasn't Obama Bin Laden been found after nearly 7 years? Anyone have a day count on how long it took to find Sadaam?

Dan, as far as the religious affiliations of the presidents you named, you're forgetting that none of them were (apparently) members of a church whos leader hates America and "the white man." Whether he attended or not isn't the issue. He was still a member of that "church." And I can't speak of his aforementioned ties to Farrakhan, but if he were, that'd be another nail in the proverbial coffin.

And, yes, I know the mechanics of why Billary didn't win. It was more of a rhetorical WTF.

I also don't believe everything I see and hear on TV or the skewed news. I'm not an idiot. I do take and filter out what I think is hype and exaggeration. The news showing clips of the wing nut spewing his hate sermons was overkill. It didn't need to be on every 10 minutes. But the fact that this seemingly very intelligent man with a career in politics and aspirations of the presidency didn't cut from this "church" long ago sticks in my craw.

And as far as my view on Obama if that story had never come out, I remember when he spoke at (I think it was) Gore's acceptance. I was caught up in his speach. Not just the words, but his strength and determination. I thought to myself, "Wow, this man's gonna be president one day," and even mentioned it to Rich when he called on his way home that evening. Unfortunately the more I see of him the less I trust him.

"You can't just vote and think your job is done - you have to hold him (or her) to account. The right wing knows that."

Knowing and acting are two dfferent things. Have they held the idiot Bush accountable? NO!!!!!

That's all. We all have opinions.

Chuck

 

[~sudsshane]

Dan,~you know what?

If somebody doesn't agree with you, they are ALWAYS on the wrong side of the issues. I have never encounted a member on this site with such a need to always be right. Always.. have the last word.
Your posts are condescending to say the least and I am FINISHED responding to any questions you may have unless you can show me some respect for my opinions. To debate me is fine, and I welcome that. To talk down to me like you are Mr Superiority on the issues is another. We all have opinions Dan, not just you.

Oh, and by the way..... Yes, 9/11 was a traumatic event for every American citizen that loves this country.

Tell me Dan, was your mother on an American Airlines flight that fateful morning when planes were being highjacked and flown into buildings? Can you imagine the fear to think for one split second that a loved one could be in harms way?

Did your sister call you hysterical crying because she personally witnessed the attack on the South Tower and feared for her boyfriend's life?

Did you lose any former classmates on that horrible day?

I will be glad to address any questions other members may have regarding my opinions or posts. All I ask if you you disagree with me, to be respectful about it and try not to judge me personally.

Oh, and one last thing...I get you too.

 

[gizmo]

Far left liberals

Shane
a couple of times you have referred to the Democrats as far left liberals.

They may be a lot of things but they are not far left.

If you don't mind a view from an outsider looking in, one remarkable thing about the US political system is that there is so little between the two parties. You have a choice of right wing or even further right wing. You should look a little beyond your own borders to get a little perspective.

We have a similar situation in AU, we changed government last year and had some necessary changes early on, but it seems to be drifting back to more of the same. We have the "more left" party in charge now, but many of their actions of late are echoes of the "more right" party we threw out.

as an aside - can anyone tell me, at federal elections in the USA do you use a preferential vote? (do you indicate numbers next to all the candidates' names, or do you just put a mark next to one person's name?)

Chris.

 

[rickr]

Good God! Sounds like the sound bites from Faux News!

The use of 9/11 belongs to the republican party. They milk it every four years.
We all felt the pain of what happened, but I am glad the left never seized 9/11 for political gain. I think it is disgusting how the right goes on about keeping the country safe, when all they did is waste money and line the pockets on their own kind in the process. (no bid contracts anyone??)
What ever happened to Bin Laden anyway??

As far as churches go, they all preach discrimination in one form or another. And each "brand" of "church" teaches that their *brand* is the right one, and that every other "church" is the wrong one. They cannot even find unity among themselves.

 

[bethann]

Well...

Drive by...

I really don't like any of them!

Can't there just be someone who...

1) Doesn't worry about what a woman does with her own body. ( none of your damn business)

2) Doesn't worry about who marries who. (none of your damn business)

3) Makes the fully capable that can work ,WORK. Instead of tax payers money paying for them to live for next to nothing. While they have cable and nice cars. ( should be our business )

4) If you cross the fence and get caught, throw them back until you do it right. That way they pay taxes like everyone else. ( should be our business )



Just a few.

The confused one, like usual!

 

[~sudsshane]

Well said BethAnn~

I agree with all your points. Isn't it a shame that once again, we have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

 

[gansky1]

Shane, nobody is picking on you personally. You have again twisted this thread into your own personal pity-party and will undoubtedly soon call for an end to the thread. Unless you haven't noticed, most of the posts directed toward you have been countering some of the points you have made on the candidates and issues. Stop interpreting this debate as an attack on you. Racking up your own personal 9-11 body count is tasteless and rude, and you know it. If you are incapable of debating rationally with verifiable facts, it might be better for you to just step out of the debate quietly and with a little dignity. The temper tantrums are unbecoming and do nothing to support your positions. Just because you take this personal does not mean everyone else needs to stop talking.

 

[~sudsshane]

Greg~

Put yourself in my shoes, if that's possible. Look through this entire thread and tell me if anywhere you have seen me attack anyone for their views. I have respected everyone's opinion and sadly mine has been mischaracterized by a few who cannot be objective. You also know from personal experience when I am wrong, I am the first to admit it or apologize. The tone of Dan's reply is sarcastic and condesending and 11 members, to be exact, have emailed me privately in support. It is a shame that they feel as if they can't post their opinions in this thread without feeling as if they will be ripped to shreads. Ralph, and several other members have disagreed with me, but have done it in a tasteful and respectful way.

I respect your thoughts, but resent that you interpret me bringing up 9/11 as a way to create my own "Body Count". I was just sharing my thoughts about that day and what my personal experience was. Am I not allowed to do that?

As far as me calling an end to this thread, I could care less if it continues or not. Robert, and only Robert, decides what threads exist on this site. The only time I have ever called for an end to a thread is when I felt Robert's good will was being taken advantage of or his site was being abused. Feel free and post until the cows come home. I could really care less.

How you can accuse me of not debating rationally is bizarre to say the least. I will answer any questions that are asked of me respectfully. Dan is anything but respectful to me. I think you are just clouded by your own political beliefs and because mine differ, I am an easy target and punching bag.

You and I share several interests, and we also share mutual friends. Though I have never met you personally, I hold you in high regard based on things I have heard about you. One minute you offer me blender bottles for my vintage Osterizer, the next you call me out on the threads instead of private email. Wasn't it you, about a year ago that put me in my place because I did that to you? Didn't I
admit I was wrong and apologize? How is this any different?

If I didn't care about your thoughts I wouldn't spend my time responding. But, i won't be turned on and off like a water faucet by anybody. I have way too much respect for myself to allow that.

 

[travis]

Vote for Bethann!

Thank you for your common sense approach. I don't like either Obama or McCain, but I feel compelled to vote for Obama simply because I hate the religious right.

I'll never understand the abortion fight. If you want or need to have one do it. If you don't want to have one don't. Also, if you hate the practice, then personally fund the alternative.

The same with same sex marriage. Who cares if us happy homosexuals want to marry. Let God deal with us later. Why does the religious right have to judge. This is a victimless sin if it is even one at that. God is big enough to take care of him or herself!

We like to throw up both those issues because it's much easier to use them to create a wedge than to tackle real issues like welfare or general assistance abuse. That issue doesn't have a race top it. White, black, hispanic, whatever, trash is trash! We can't do much about it because everyone votes and you can't lose their support! I am disabled and I work full time. There's a whole lot of abuse in assistance that's not needed. My personal favorite is foodstamps or the ebt system. You can't buy beer, or cigarettes with it, but you can buy snack food and other crap. Make that assistance only buy the core items needed to live. If you don't like it then go work and buy the oreos. It burns me up to see this. Not only do they eat more, but then I have to pick up all the trash down my street.

Whoever thinks the oil issue is going to be solved with drilling in Alaska is clueless. The St. Louis metro area is huge and yet the overall population hasn't increased much. We've all spread out to avoid the race issue. Guess what? As a result, the people that moved an hour out are screwed with the high gas prices. No one guaranteed anyone low utilities or gas. Either pay the price, get a more efficient car, or move closer to work. The overall solution would include alternative fuel sources, but not more oil.

I'll ignore Iraq, except to ask how much rebuilding of our roads and cities could have been done with all that money?

 

[sudsmaster]

I'm voting for Obama not just because I like most of his policies (although I think his health care plan doesn't go as far as it needs to), but because I think he's a natural born leader. He has the potential to inspire this nation to recover and rebuild our economy, our international standing, and our pride. McCain says he's a maverick but he seems to change his position on major issues simply to fit the demands of whatever poltical battle he's in at the moment. He's voted with Bush 90-95% of the time. That's no maverick. I applaud him for chosing a woman as his running mate, but then Mondale already broke that barrier in 1984. And I'm sorry, Palin is a lightweight who clearly has neither the national experience nor the inclination to deal with national or international issues. Add to that, she's a creationist and a bible thumper - I think she'd be a disastrous president.

 

[lightedcontrols]

Before you do something stupid...

like vote for OBAMA. You NEED to read his book. Pretty much says it all. Available at Amazon.......or better yet, steal one from the bookstore so the bastard doesn't get any MORE of your money. Mark Lightedcontrols

 

[jeffg]

McCain is the weakest Republican presidential candidate since Barry Goldwater in 1964, and his margin of defeat will be similar to Goldwater's. Any chance he had of winning disappeared with his VP choice.

I just saw her droning on about the greatness of Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton, while the Fox News crew writhed in agony and struggled to keep straight faces. Hilarious!

 

[peterh770]

I heart Bethanne!

Meanwhile, back at the debate..

Sudsmaster
I'm voting for Obama not just because I like most of his policies (although I think his health care plan doesn't go as far as it needs to -- into the pockets of insurance companies instead of leaving health care between a doctor and patient, no let's screw this up like social security), but because I think he's a natural born leader. (of what, no legislation during his term, of which he was only there for like 140 days and the rest he was out campaigning) He has the potential to inspire this nation to recover and rebuild our economy, our international standing, and our pride. (with what, his speeches from a teleprompter? where's the beef? let's hear some policies instead of these platitudes and soundbytes, unless you want to read the class warfare and socialism from his website) McCain says he's a maverick but he seems to change his position on major issues simply to fit the demands of whatever poltical battle he's in at the moment. (that is what politicians do, but he's not pandering to the poor poor) He's voted with Bush 90-95% of the time. (which is what 90-95% of all senators usually do bipartisanly) That's no maverick. I applaud him for chosing a woman as his running mate, but then Mondale already broke that barrier in 1984. (and Mondale lost and was a Democrat with a feminist VP) And I'm sorry, Palin is a lightweight who clearly has neither the national experience nor the inclination to deal with national or international issues. (she has more executive experience as a mayor and a governor than O does, successfully winning her governorship in the SAME party AGAINST the encumbent governor) Add to that, she's a creationist and a bible thumper - I think she'd be a disastrous president. (ooOOOoo, an evil christian who might restore some morals and ethics in Washington as she did in Alaska, God forbid!)

As for praising Ferraro and Clinton, that was classy!

 

[sudsmaster]

I'm willing to accept that there are some in this group that are conservative and will vote for McCain. That's their choice. However I find it difficult to understand people who will so enthusiastically vote for people who at their core are repelled by your sexual orientation and/or your "gay lifestyle". Stockholm syndrome? I don't know, you tell me. I just think that Obama/Biden will be far more gay-friendly than McCain/Palin. And Palin comes up with the hackneyed excuse of closet bigots of the ages: "I have friends who are gay, but ...."

As for Obama's policies, did you not listen to his acceptance speech? He laid out exactly what his policies are now and what they will be if he is elected. He's also got detailed policy statements on his web site.

If you want to tout Palin's "executive experience", well, then you have to admit that she has more of that than John McCain, as well. But if you look at her executive experience, she was mayor of a town of less than 10,000. She has been governor of a state of about 700,000 for less than two years. In that short time she's racked up an ethics investigation because she tried to fire her sister's ex, and when that didn't happen, she fired his boss. She thinks that the Great Flood wiped out the dinosaurs, that evolution is a myth. No doubt she'll do everything she can to get creationism taught as if it were science, and support a consitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. If McCain passes and she is promoted, she'll appoint anti-science anti-environment anti-gay anti-women anti-worker anti-choice anti-living wage anti-gun control anti-free speech killjoys to the Supreme Court if given half the chance. If that's what you want, please go right ahead and vote for McCain. Just don't expect me not to say, "I told you" when life turns to crap.

 

[mattl]

It's fair to say there are strong opinions on both sides, I've read posts that spew about Obama and how it will be the end of the world if he's elected. Well, that is how I felt the last 8 years and feel even more about McCain. The difference is we had 8 years of a Fu**up and now it's our turn. I want a president that thinks and comprehends, Bush did neither and McCain, obviously doesn't either with his VP pick.

Robert was right, all of us have made up out minds and none of as are willing to change them.