Democratic Convention in Denver

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Well said BethAnn~

I agree with all your points. Isn't it a shame that once again, we have to choose between the lesser of two evils.
 
Shane, nobody is picking on you personally. You have again twisted this thread into your own personal pity-party and will undoubtedly soon call for an end to the thread. Unless you haven't noticed, most of the posts directed toward you have been countering some of the points you have made on the candidates and issues. Stop interpreting this debate as an attack on you. Racking up your own personal 9-11 body count is tasteless and rude, and you know it. If you are incapable of debating rationally with verifiable facts, it might be better for you to just step out of the debate quietly and with a little dignity. The temper tantrums are unbecoming and do nothing to support your positions. Just because you take this personal does not mean everyone else needs to stop talking.
 
Greg~

Put yourself in my shoes, if that's possible. Look through this entire thread and tell me if anywhere you have seen me attack anyone for their views. I have respected everyone's opinion and sadly mine has been mischaracterized by a few who cannot be objective. You also know from personal experience when I am wrong, I am the first to admit it or apologize. The tone of Dan's reply is sarcastic and condesending and 11 members, to be exact, have emailed me privately in support. It is a shame that they feel as if they can't post their opinions in this thread without feeling as if they will be ripped to shreads. Ralph, and several other members have disagreed with me, but have done it in a tasteful and respectful way.

I respect your thoughts, but resent that you interpret me bringing up 9/11 as a way to create my own "Body Count". I was just sharing my thoughts about that day and what my personal experience was. Am I not allowed to do that?

As far as me calling an end to this thread, I could care less if it continues or not. Robert, and only Robert, decides what threads exist on this site. The only time I have ever called for an end to a thread is when I felt Robert's good will was being taken advantage of or his site was being abused. Feel free and post until the cows come home. I could really care less.

How you can accuse me of not debating rationally is bizarre to say the least. I will answer any questions that are asked of me respectfully. Dan is anything but respectful to me. I think you are just clouded by your own political beliefs and because mine differ, I am an easy target and punching bag.

You and I share several interests, and we also share mutual friends. Though I have never met you personally, I hold you in high regard based on things I have heard about you. One minute you offer me blender bottles for my vintage Osterizer, the next you call me out on the threads instead of private email. Wasn't it you, about a year ago that put me in my place because I did that to you? Didn't I
admit I was wrong and apologize? How is this any different?

If I didn't care about your thoughts I wouldn't spend my time responding. But, i won't be turned on and off like a water faucet by anybody. I have way too much respect for myself to allow that.
 
Vote for Bethann!

Thank you for your common sense approach. I don't like either Obama or McCain, but I feel compelled to vote for Obama simply because I hate the religious right.

I'll never understand the abortion fight. If you want or need to have one do it. If you don't want to have one don't. Also, if you hate the practice, then personally fund the alternative.

The same with same sex marriage. Who cares if us happy homosexuals want to marry. Let God deal with us later. Why does the religious right have to judge. This is a victimless sin if it is even one at that. God is big enough to take care of him or herself!

We like to throw up both those issues because it's much easier to use them to create a wedge than to tackle real issues like welfare or general assistance abuse. That issue doesn't have a race top it. White, black, hispanic, whatever, trash is trash! We can't do much about it because everyone votes and you can't lose their support! I am disabled and I work full time. There's a whole lot of abuse in assistance that's not needed. My personal favorite is foodstamps or the ebt system. You can't buy beer, or cigarettes with it, but you can buy snack food and other crap. Make that assistance only buy the core items needed to live. If you don't like it then go work and buy the oreos. It burns me up to see this. Not only do they eat more, but then I have to pick up all the trash down my street.

Whoever thinks the oil issue is going to be solved with drilling in Alaska is clueless. The St. Louis metro area is huge and yet the overall population hasn't increased much. We've all spread out to avoid the race issue. Guess what? As a result, the people that moved an hour out are screwed with the high gas prices. No one guaranteed anyone low utilities or gas. Either pay the price, get a more efficient car, or move closer to work. The overall solution would include alternative fuel sources, but not more oil.

I'll ignore Iraq, except to ask how much rebuilding of our roads and cities could have been done with all that money?
 
I'm voting for Obama not just because I like most of his policies (although I think his health care plan doesn't go as far as it needs to), but because I think he's a natural born leader. He has the potential to inspire this nation to recover and rebuild our economy, our international standing, and our pride. McCain says he's a maverick but he seems to change his position on major issues simply to fit the demands of whatever poltical battle he's in at the moment. He's voted with Bush 90-95% of the time. That's no maverick. I applaud him for chosing a woman as his running mate, but then Mondale already broke that barrier in 1984. And I'm sorry, Palin is a lightweight who clearly has neither the national experience nor the inclination to deal with national or international issues. Add to that, she's a creationist and a bible thumper - I think she'd be a disastrous president.
 
Before you do something stupid...

like vote for OBAMA. You NEED to read his book. Pretty much says it all. Available at Amazon.......or better yet, steal one from the bookstore so the bastard doesn't get any MORE of your money. Mark Lightedcontrols
 
McCain is the weakest Republican presidential candidate since Barry Goldwater in 1964, and his margin of defeat will be similar to Goldwater's. Any chance he had of winning disappeared with his VP choice.

I just saw her droning on about the greatness of Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton, while the Fox News crew writhed in agony and struggled to keep straight faces. Hilarious!
 
I heart Bethanne!

Meanwhile, back at the debate..

Sudsmaster
I'm voting for Obama not just because I like most of his policies (although I think his health care plan doesn't go as far as it needs to -- into the pockets of insurance companies instead of leaving health care between a doctor and patient, no let's screw this up like social security), but because I think he's a natural born leader. (of what, no legislation during his term, of which he was only there for like 140 days and the rest he was out campaigning) He has the potential to inspire this nation to recover and rebuild our economy, our international standing, and our pride. (with what, his speeches from a teleprompter? where's the beef? let's hear some policies instead of these platitudes and soundbytes, unless you want to read the class warfare and socialism from his website) McCain says he's a maverick but he seems to change his position on major issues simply to fit the demands of whatever poltical battle he's in at the moment. (that is what politicians do, but he's not pandering to the poor poor) He's voted with Bush 90-95% of the time. (which is what 90-95% of all senators usually do bipartisanly) That's no maverick. I applaud him for chosing a woman as his running mate, but then Mondale already broke that barrier in 1984. (and Mondale lost and was a Democrat with a feminist VP) And I'm sorry, Palin is a lightweight who clearly has neither the national experience nor the inclination to deal with national or international issues. (she has more executive experience as a mayor and a governor than O does, successfully winning her governorship in the SAME party AGAINST the encumbent governor) Add to that, she's a creationist and a bible thumper - I think she'd be a disastrous president. (ooOOOoo, an evil christian who might restore some morals and ethics in Washington as she did in Alaska, God forbid!)

As for praising Ferraro and Clinton, that was classy!
 
I'm willing to accept that there are some in this group that are conservative and will vote for McCain. That's their choice. However I find it difficult to understand people who will so enthusiastically vote for people who at their core are repelled by your sexual orientation and/or your "gay lifestyle". Stockholm syndrome? I don't know, you tell me. I just think that Obama/Biden will be far more gay-friendly than McCain/Palin. And Palin comes up with the hackneyed excuse of closet bigots of the ages: "I have friends who are gay, but ...."

As for Obama's policies, did you not listen to his acceptance speech? He laid out exactly what his policies are now and what they will be if he is elected. He's also got detailed policy statements on his web site.

If you want to tout Palin's "executive experience", well, then you have to admit that she has more of that than John McCain, as well. But if you look at her executive experience, she was mayor of a town of less than 10,000. She has been governor of a state of about 700,000 for less than two years. In that short time she's racked up an ethics investigation because she tried to fire her sister's ex, and when that didn't happen, she fired his boss. She thinks that the Great Flood wiped out the dinosaurs, that evolution is a myth. No doubt she'll do everything she can to get creationism taught as if it were science, and support a consitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. If McCain passes and she is promoted, she'll appoint anti-science anti-environment anti-gay anti-women anti-worker anti-choice anti-living wage anti-gun control anti-free speech killjoys to the Supreme Court if given half the chance. If that's what you want, please go right ahead and vote for McCain. Just don't expect me not to say, "I told you" when life turns to crap.
 
It's fair to say there are strong opinions on both sides, I've read posts that spew about Obama and how it will be the end of the world if he's elected. Well, that is how I felt the last 8 years and feel even more about McCain. The difference is we had 8 years of a Fu**up and now it's our turn. I want a president that thinks and comprehends, Bush did neither and McCain, obviously doesn't either with his VP pick.

Robert was right, all of us have made up out minds and none of as are willing to change them.
 
And so

the conservatives are actually willing to put the fate of the US into the hands of McCain and Palin, whose qualifications to be leader of the free world are, what, exactly?
Oh right, she doesn't believe in human rights for homosexuals, considers a woman's body to be government property, rejects all knowledge based on science (silly things like natural selection, global warming...), rejects non-fossil fuel energy promotion...and has the tremendous executive experience of running a small town as Mayor.
I suppose we have to count being governor too, after all, she was, has been and is currently under investigation for so many abuses of executive power which only an 'executive' could commit.
Ok, conservatives, tell us now, please do, why this team is such a brilliantly better choice than Obama/Biden.
The world waits with bated breath...you're really going to have to dig deep on this one.
Sheesh. Eisenhower must be turning in his grave so fast you could probably power the Eastern seaboard with the heat of his indignation.
 
We met some of the family yesterday at Cracker Barrel (I know...) for breakfast and I saw an late-middle aged man wearing a shirt that said "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists." George W. Bush, 2001

Under that, it had logos from Shell, BP, Exxon, Sinclair, Texaco, Mobil, etc.

He was getting a lot of attention in the waiting area, lots of laughs and "you got that right" comments. I really don't think most voters are fool enough to fall for the same line of crap again, but then...

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/US-Election-IQ2004.htm
8-31-2008-08-54-37--gansky1.jpg
 
His grandaughter, actually

and this was her letter of resignation from the republican party.
How any conservative can read this and still be for the republicans is beyond me.

Susan Eisenhower Quits Republican Party - Reflections on Leaving the Party

I have decided I can no longer be a registered Republican. For the first time in my life I announced my support for a Democratic candidate for the presidency, in February of this year. This was not an endorsement of the Democratic platform, nor was it a slap in the face to the Republican Party. It was an expression of support specifically for Senator Barack Obama. I had always intended to go back to party ranks after the election and work with my many dedicated friends and colleagues to help reshape the GOP, especially in the foreign-policy arena. But I now know I will be more effective focusing on our national and international problems than I will be in trying to reinvigorate a political organization that has already consumed nearly all of its moderate “seed corn.” And now, as the party threatens to trivialize what promised to be a serious debate on our future direction, it will alienate many young people who might have come into party ranks.

My decision came at the end of last week when it was demonstrated to the nation that McCain and this Bush White House have learned little in the last five years. They mishandled what became a crisis in the Caucusus, and this has undermined U.S. national security. At the same time, the McCain camp appears to be comfortable with running an unworthy Karl Rove–style political campaign. Will the McCain operation, and its sponsors, do anything to win?

This week, I changed my registration from Republican to independent. The two political parties as they exist today, and the partisanship that they foster, reflect the many fights of the cold war, the Vietnam era, the post–cold war and the 9/11 periods. Today we are in a different place altogether, where our security as a nation is challenged not just from abroad but also close to home. The energy, health-care and financial crises threaten our national prosperity and well-being, just as surely as any confrontation overseas or an attack by radical terrorists.

As an independent I want to be free of the constraints and burdens that have come with trying to make my own views explainable in the context of today’s party. Hijacked by a relatively small few, the GOP of today bears no resemblance to Lincoln, Roosevelt or Eisenhower’s party, or many of the other Republican administrations that came after. In my grandparents’ time, the thrust of the party was rooted in: a respect for the constitution; the defense of civil liberties; a commitment to fiscal responsibility; the pursuit and stewardship of America’s interests abroad; the use of multilateral international engagement and “soft power”; the advancement of civil rights; investment in infrastructure; environmental stewardship; the promotion of science and its discoveries; and a philosophical approach focused squarely on the future.

As an independent I will now feel comfortable supporting people of any political party who reflect those core values.

It was not easy taking this step, since politics, like religion, is something learned on the knee of one’s parents and grandparents. And like anything else inherited, it is imbedded in one’s own identity. This makes leaving even harder.

But there will be some joy for me in my new status since I will be able to speak for myself, and not as a member of a party that has, sadly, lost its way.
 
"I believe that Barack Obama has the energy, but more importantly, the temperament, to run this country and provide the leadership we need. He knows that we can either advance on the distant hills of hope– or retreat to the garrisons of fear. He can mobilize and inspire all of us to show up for duty. Discipline will be required; as will compromise, flexibility and quiet strength."

- Susan Eisenhower
 
Ah, but

then Susan Eisenhower really gives a damn about the US. The other 'conservatives' who are pretending that the democrats would do a worse job of governing are just plain hiding one of three things:
Their hatred of women and homosexuals (in the case of gays supporting the republicans, that is pathologically self-loathing. How anyone can hate themselves so much as to actually vote for a person who denies one basic human rights, is beyond belief).
They do not respect the US Constitution. After the last three Supreme Court decisions against this administration how any strict constitutionalist can be pro-republican is a mystery incapable of resolution. Oh, right - we all know how liberal and revisionist this Supreme Court is.
They are racist.
It's one or more of the three. Why not just come out and admit it instead of all these silly arguments?
 
Well Chris, with the whole Electoral College system in place, the popular vote doesn't even matter. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 and still won the election thanks to the Electoral College votes and seriously illegal shenanigans in Florida. It's a topic for discussion every four years lately, as the Electoral College has been doing a lousy job of reflecting the popular vote.

I've read enough about the Electoral College to understand why it exists, but I still don't agree with it. I say, if you win the popular vote, you win the election. The Electoral College process says the exact opposite too much of the time lately.

Without knowing enough to write a thesis on it and just from my casual observance and experience, I'm all in favor of blowing up the Electoral College. Its entire "student body" appears to be made up of robotic morons.
 
I wish we had preferential voting

Several times, I've had to make a choice between Someone I Can Believe In But Has No Chance and Someone I Can Tolerate, Who Might Win.

Such a system would give strength for a third party to emerge, since people wouldn't have to worry about "throwing their vote away."

Still, I have a feeling the system we have won't change any time soon. Both major parties probably like the status quo.
 
John, sadly, I believe you are correct. The two major parties will forever work to prevent a viable third one.
 
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