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panthera

panthera

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I've been awful busy these last few weeks helping my partner dig out from the nasty damage of a flood - but from what little I have read, the Democrats seem, once again, poised to rescue defeat from the jaws of victory.
Anybody have another opinion (please?!).
Still can't understand why a gay man or any woman would vote for the Republicans, but after these first two days, have the feeling it is more a question of voting against christianist terror than for anything really earth shaking-ly positive.
 
Chris, the general election is not by preferntial vote. You vote for one person only. Some local governments have preferential voting or "instant run-off" elections but that does not happen on a national level.

Ralph
 
Keven:

I don't disagree with you, but at least Hillary Clinton did her best to restore unity and get people behind Obama. Her speech last night was one for the books. I was particularly taken with her catchphrase that will hopefully stick in peoples' minds - "No Way. No How. No McCain."

I have personally never been an Obama supporter, because I'd prefer more of a track record in a President, but if it comes down to keeping the Republicans out of the White House this next term, then I have to put aside my personal feelings, is my reasoning. He will have Biden for advice and gravitas, and that's the best we can do under the circumstances. I am becoming very put out with the Hillaryites who continue to put their own hurted widdle feelings over party unity and the good of the nation. Obama has some very stiff resistance to overcome, and the didoes of Hillary's never-say-die advocates are making it just that much harder to get votes behind the man who is - like it or not - the Democratic candidate.

I personally would have been very comfortable with Hillary as President, but that is not going to happen this election cycle, and those of us who supported her run need to deal with that reality.
 
I supported Hillary, I still support Hillary

But, I have to go with her message. Can this country take another eight years of the same-ole? Look at the damage this administration has done so far without even looking at world opinion and the Iraq thing.

GWB has appointed three Supreme Court Justices. This is a legacy that will live on for years because the Justices are there for LIFE. This country is still feeling the effects of the Nixon adminsitration from his Supreme Court appointments. At least Regan had the (I don't want to say brains and I am not trying to be mean since he died of Alzheimers) but he had the input from people that had intelligence to appoint Sandra Day-O'Conner. One of the best appointments in the last 40 year IMO.

Though I think the country was ready for Hillary, the majority of the voters did not.

I think Teddy Kennedy and Caroline did a wonderful job on Monday. Hats off the the Kennedy's. While I am on my soap box, may Teddy do better in his recovery even though his odds don't look good.
 
PUMA~

I don't trust Obama and I can't stand Joe ( I love to hear myself speak) Biden. Hillary won more popular votes than Obama, counting Florida and Michigan. She should have been vetted or at least considered for V.P. Had Obama chosen her, I would have in the end voted for him.

Now..I will gladly pull the lever for McCain in November.

Keven, there are many good people in the GOP that support Gay/ Human rights. To demonize a whole political party because of George W Bush and his cronies is grossly unfair. What do you suggest we do, surrender a major political party ( GOP) to the far right winged extremists? Don't you think we should have Gay and Lesbian voters in the GOP in order to effect change?

I have a good friend who is President of the local chapter of "Log Cabin Republicans". They have done alot of good for the advancement of Gay and Lesbians causes here locally and nationwide. Open your mind and realize not all Republicans are bad and against Gay/Human rights.

Check out their website. www.logcabin.org
 
Shane:

Here's the fear we Dems have. I'm not arguing with your position that the Republican Party is not inherently a problem, because you're absolutely right - it's not. Some of my best friends are, and all that. So, it's not a Republican vs. Democrat thing going on with me here.

The problem I'm having right now is that John McCain's public pronouncements and voting record suggest four more years of the very hijacking of the Republican Party you deplore. We truly cannot afford that.

There is another factor, as well. Bush and his cronies have done many, many things that are - to put it as politely as possible - rather questionable, in both legal and moral senses. We need both investigation of the charges that have been levelled at the Bush administration, and we need to restore some things to where they were before Bush and his cronies began tinkering with them. If we do not, dangerous precedents will have been set for Presidential abuses of power.

Since McCain's base is also largely Bush's base, I don't think we can expect much in the way of investigations if McCain is elected. And I think that's very bad for the country, because if there's one thing we know, it's that politicians are not going to get more fair-minded and moral as the years go by. If no one investigates and brings wrongdoers to some sort of justice, the precedents set during the Bush years will give future power-grabbers quite a lot of latitude to expand upon Bush's "Imperial Presidency" style of running things.

This is asking a lot of any Republican, and I know it, but I hope you'll think hard about what a continuation of Bush's policies and ethics might do to America. Electing Obama is, frankly, not what I want this country to do, but at least we'd stand some chance of curbing those elements in the Republican Party you deplore. With McCain, I honestly do not see that happening.

I hope you will take this as reasoned discussion, not as "I'm right - you're wrong" stuff. There's way too much of that on the Web already. I've been very capably led by Republicans for much of my life (I remember Ike and Gerald Ford with especial fondness), and I, like you, would like to see that kind of Republican come back in style.
 
Overhere in Europe we are holding our breath too. Not only the USA but also the rest of the world cannot afford another president like George Bush. What we have seen until now from McCain doesn't give us much hope. We all are keeping our fingers crossed that Obama will be the next president. Otherwise there is no hope that the world economy will be back on it's feet soon with somebody who wants to continue a war the USA nor the rest of the world can afford.
 
I liked Hillary. I liked Obama. Their policy positions are nearly identical, and their resumes similar. But Obama won. Thus, I'm voting for Obama.

And yes, the Log Cabin Republicans are a fine organization - if you are into appeasers, or people affliced with the Stockholm Syndrome.

I would like to know one - just one - good thing that a GOP-controlled Congress or White House has ever done for Gays and Lesbians.

While we try to find something, consider this: The GOP platform - greatly streamlined in an effort to get McCain elected - still manages to call out for a ban on gay marriage. This, in a time of serious economic problems, two wars that do nothing but feed war profiteers, record deficits, and unparalleled contempt for the US in the world community. The reaction from the LCR? Nada. Nothing. Zilch.

But no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of Americans, so who knows what will happen.
 
The damage done

by the current administration will take decades to repair, if it can be repaired.

I question the sanity of anybody who supports that alcaholic frat boy who calls himself "president" and his party of destruction. Republican agendas are tearing the nation apart for the benefit of the wealthy. And there are masses of blue collar people who think it will get them something to vote republican.

Sure there are points I don't agree with about the democrats but good god in heaven how could anybody in their right mind even think of four more years of this hell???

As my grandfather once told me "Son, I'd like to be a republican but G*D* if I can afford to be one".

The nation is polarized ove issues like gay marriage. Here in Georgia the republicans always start chanting that mantra when they are afraid of loosing an office.

And my office is being cut to nothing because our republican secretary of state does not beieve we need a state archives.

I will be out of a job soon because of republican politics and policy. Who do you think I'm voting for......
 
well~

"I would like to know one - just one - good thing that a GOP-controlled Congress or White House has ever done for Gays and Lesbians".

May 2, 2003: The GOP controlled Congress approved President Bush’s $15 billion AIDS Initiative Fund. While unpopular here in the states, Bush is a rock star in Africa. The fund is the largest international health initiative ever to fight a single disease, and Bush wants to double that amount to $30 billion over the next five years.

While I am no fan of Bush, this is something that sound be recognized. Even Clinton and Obama have praised this initiative.
 
No question about it. Anyone who votes for McCain is voting for 4 more years of running this nation into the ground. Bush has run up a deficit that far exceeds comprehension let alone the amount of combined deficits of ALL presidents before him--that means back as far as George Washington, people. He has stayed true to his practices in previous roles as corporate head, running every entity he has ever touched into bankruptcy. He's just about there with the U.S. now too. Let McCain take over and we'll be spending trillions more in Iraq.

This SHOULD be a no-brainer for everyone who wants this country to avoid social and economic collapse. There shouldn't even be an element of choice about the right vote to cast come November. We MUST elect Obama or resign ourselves to have China holding us by the nuts for many generations to come, and throwing trillions upon trillions that we don't even have down the Iraqi and Afghan ratholes. I shudder to think of the economic impacts of pulling Iran into the mix.

Again, there IS no choice. It MUST be Obama or if you think we're in bad shape now, just think what 4 more years of the same economic and foreign policy of the last 8 is going to do to us.

How anyone can even consider McCain escapes me.
 
That was

election year posturing. He waited until his last year in office and did it as a gesture to try and put a good face on his presidential "legacy". To little to late Shane.
 
well~

I guess since the Democrats have done such a wonderful job the last 2 years since taking over Congress, we should give them the keys to the White House also? I think not. Barack Obama's far left liberal policies are going to send this country towards financial ruin.

Nancy Pelosi has been a MAJOR disappointment as House Speaker and Harry Reid can't seem to get anything done in the Senate.

They didn't even have the guts to vote for impeachment of Bush and Cheney after all the crimes committed in the administration, from wire taping to mismanagement of the war.

What were they elected for? Didn't they promise, when running in 2006, to not fund and end the war?

The Democrats are going to have a far reaching majority when the next Congress convenes. At least with John McCain as president, it will force both parties to work together.

Divided government is a good thing.
 
Really Shane?

Divided government a good thing? It was divided in 1860 and look what happened the next year. I hope we don't get to that point again. I don't have any faith in McCain. He is living in the past and will not be able to put the parties together. As a historian he reminds me of McKinley. By the way, thanks for the rain, I hope it didn't do to much damage when you were pelted with it.
 
speaking of posturing~

didn't Obama recently do that while running in the primaries against Clinton? First, he didn't want the Florida and Michigan delegation to be sat at the convention.
Then, as a compromise to appease the Clinton campaign, they agreed to sit half the delegation and count MY vote as a half vote.

Now that he has the nomination all but secured, imagine this...The delegation for Florida and Michigan is fully sat and restored 100%.!!

Barack Obama, just like the rest..A true blue politician!
 
and I think.....

I think the Bush presidency will haunt our children and grand children for many decades. I voted for Bush and I believe its the worst vote I've ever cast as an adult. Look at the value of the dollar and who is holding billions of dollars. And our country's way to controlled by special interest and way to quick to jump on a military solution, which in the long run turns out to not usually be a good solution. I've come full circle on this whole US military and our govt. meddling in other peoples affairs thing we've been doing to much of the last 40 or 50 years - and both the Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty. I think both parties have done a dis-service to our country - so I'm an independent.

This time I'm voting for Obama, and I like Obama and I think he has some real leadership qualities, but I won't like it if he ratchets up social spending, which I think should occur for education, health care and infrastructure, but doesn't ratchet down military spending, which also should occur to pay for the others.

I fear what Eisenhower said has come true, the biggest threat to our democracy is our military/industrial complex. Its self pertetuating and we can't afford it. Listen on YouTube to a fellow named Chalmers Johnson and he will explain what I mean here.
 
Shane Just for You

My feeling also normally don't get involved online with politics.

A cousin sent this to me so do everyday.

START EACH DAY WITH A POSITIVE OUTLOOK

 

1. Open a new file in your computer.

2. Name it 'Barack Obama'.

3. Send it to the Recycle Bin.

4. Empty the Recycle Bin.

5. Your computer will ask you: 'Do you really want to get rid of 'Barack  Obama?'

6. Firmly Click 'Yes.'

7. Feel better?

 

GOOD! - Tomorrow we'll do Nancy Pelosi!

 
 
Why I support McCain over Obama

First off, if anybody is going to e-mail me from this site, do NOT, under any circumstances, accuse me of being a racist. As a gay man who has experienced discrimination first hand, I resent this and it couldn't be any further from the truth. Racism, Sexism and any sort of discrimination, on any level, is wrong.
At least identify yourself and not hide behind an anonymous email address.

Why I am voting for McCain over Obama:

John McCain has proven that he is a leader throughout his military and political career.

As a Naval aviator, McCain flew 23 combat missions over Vietnam before he was shot down and captured as a POW. While a POW, McCain was given the choice to be released early but chose to stay because other American POWs had been held captive longer.

After 5 and a half years of captivity McCain was finally released and returned home. He recovered from his injuries and regained his flight status. Then he commanded one of the Navy's largest attack squadrons.

In Congress, McCain has fought hard to eliminate pork barrel spending. He's challenged Republicans and Democrats to work together in Congress and has led by example in doing so.

John McCain has a long track record of working with members of both major political parties in Congress to craft and pass legislation that is in the country's best interests. Some people call him a maverick for breaking party lines and following an independent streak...I call him a true American. He understands that he's working for the American people and that's the kind of politician we need more of in Washington.

McCain was also right on the surge in Iraq. Whether you agree or disagree with the decision to invade Iraq, the fact is we're there. McCain has said since the beginning that we didn't have enough troops there to get the job done right. It took way too long, but President Bush finally realized this and sent more troops last year. The result has been a reduction in the level of violence and an opportunity for the necessary political changes to occur.

McCain is right on torture. If anyone is qualified to speak out about torture, it's John McCain. He was tortured for over 5 years while a POW in Vietnam and has sharply criticized the Bush administration for its use of water boarding and other torture techniques.

These are some of the reasons I support McCain over Obama. It is simple as that. Don't assume every white person who doesn't support Obama is doing it purely because of racism.

I am entitled to my opinion, just as everyone who has posted on this thread is. I think we all need to respect that
 
Shane:

First and foremost, I agree with you 100% on the subject of Nancy Pelosi. Voters put her in office in an effort to get Bush's impeachment rolling, and she has resisted fulfilling that mandate every way she knows how, and oy, does she know how. I hope she has a lot of projects around her home waiting for her, because she's going to need something to keep her busy after the next mid-terms.

Bush's AIDS initiative in Africa is not really a benefit to gays. First, AIDS transmission on that continent is largely heterosexual. Second, it does nothing for American AIDS sufferers, who have seen programmes and services cut during the past eight years. Also, while it is definitely good that Bush did something constructive during his two terms, I think the bad outweighs it by a pretty broad margin. After all, the Volkswagen Beetle was the result of a design programme begun and funded by Adolf Hitler. What is Hitler remembered for? Not the car, that's for sure.

I'm glad you see Obama for the politician he is, because a lot of people don't. There's a sort of Messianic fervour among many of his followers. He's going to have to cut deals and do business like every politician before him, and that's already disappointing many people. Politicians are not nice people, plain and simple. I've long said that anyone who has the outsized ego and talent for machinations necessary to run for President should not be allowed anywhere near the job.

But of the two we've got running, I do think Obama the lesser of two evils, and if you're thinking that it's a damned shame our electoral process has come to that, I could not agree with you more.
 
Perhaps you are not a racist Shane, but many Hillary supporters that now support McCane are racist. The fact that the very first thing you posted is your claim that you are not racist does leave one to wonder.

Personally, I could care less if you are racist or not. I could not care less who you vote for either.Everyone has their own choice. I just think it is odd that you jump at the chance to express your intense dislike for Obama at every chance you have. And then you go on to post how much you are supporting McCain after Hillary lost her chance. Most people do not understand the reasoning behind this. After all, Hillary and Obama are much closer on the same issues than Hillary and McCain are. So whatever, do whatever you like.It is your right. But do not expect people here to believe that you are not a sore looser, or perhaps even racist. Most I have spoke with feel the same of all the people that went from supporting Hillary to McCain, and then keep going on and on about it.
 
I was talking to my cousin in Arkansas the other night. She was talking politics. I always thought she was a Republican. She said "No, Her husband was the Republican." "She was a Yellow Dog Democrat."

I said I wasn't familiar with that term,
She said it's like this, if there were only a Republican and a Yellow Dog running for office, I would vote for the Yellow Dog.
 
I usually loathe getting involved in political discussions online, but for the life of me I do not understand why some Hillary supporters would not support Obama.

Sure, he is not perfect...but who is?

If McCain wins I fear for my country, I really...really do...
 
Rick~

To say that many Hillary supporters who now support McCain are racist is a bit over the top don't ya think? Granted, some might be, but the people that I know, who supported Hillary and now support McCain, care about experience and judgment, plain and simple. On a personal level, I don't feel comfortable voting for a nominee that has 3.5 years in the Senate to lead our nation.

Obama is vulnerable and the polls show it. 2 new polls came out today, one showing McCain leading and the other showing a tie. Obviously many Americans have doubts about Obama because of his questionable ties, (Wright,Ayers,Rezko) and lack of political experience.

Given all the money he has raised and the media's overwhelming support, he should have the wind at his back, and he doesn't.

Now, with that being said, it was a great thing to see the nomination of an African American by a major political party. Progress is a great thing! Maybe one day, an openly gay man or woman could be nominated??

I still believe Hillary was the stronger candidate and in the end, I believe McCain is going to win.
 
Thanks rickr

you expressed very well something I also wondered about in that post. I would not pick Obama except he is the only real choice we have. I would prefer he have more experience but the things Shane pointed out about McCain are some of the reasons I don't like him. I believe it was a political choice for him to stay in the prison camp because his father was a Senator at the time and it would look like daddy pulled strings to get him out. I am over having the Vietnam era war mongers running things. That was another war we should not have been in. And if you want to talk about experience then McCain should darn well be able to use a computer, -to hear him say "I'm learning to log onto the internet by myself now"...does not inspire confidence. McCain = McSame.... as Bush.
 
While I voted for Hillary in primary mainly because she'd piss off the religious right more than Barack probably would, we now proudly have a big Obama lawn sign out in our front yard. The whole neighborhood has them and I have yet to see one McCain sign.

Unfortunately the RNC convention begins here next week, and that's an embarrassment to the Twin Cities in my opinion, but we'll take the money. I said at work today that the gay bars are gonna be extra fun next weekend with all the republicans here. That got a huge laugh, but unfortunately I wasn't kidding lol, they'll be away from home and you know what happens then. What happens in Minneapolis, stays in... It's going to be quite interesting around here over the course of next week.
 
"John McCain has proven that he is a leader throughout his military and political career."

Not really.

"As a Naval aviator, McCain flew 23 combat missions over Vietnam before he was shot down and captured as a POW. While a POW, McCain was given the choice to be released early but chose to stay because other American POWs had been held captive longer."

McCain lost five expensive military aircraft during his time in the military. Only one of those was lost in combat. Two were lost due to his incompetence. Another one to mechanical failure (engine flame out) and on deck accident (accidental detonation and fire). He's been described as an ok flyer, nothing special. McCain likely was given special treatment - both postive and negative - because his captors knew he was the son and grandson of US Navy admirals. But as Wesley Clark says, getting shot down and being a POW is not really connected with the qualifications one needs for the presidency.

"After 5 and a half years of captivity McCain was finally released and returned home. He recovered from his injuries and regained his flight status. Then he commanded one of the Navy's largest attack squadrons."

McCain commanded a training squadron, not an attack squadron. While he did improve its morale, this was through breaking Navy rules that forbid fraternization between officers and enlisted.

"In Congress, McCain has fought hard to eliminate pork barrel spending. He's challenged Republicans and Democrats to work together in Congress and has led by example in doing so."

Arizona is a relatively wealthy state in little need of special projects. Additionally, McCain has packed his campaign staff with Washington lobbyists. He was implicated in the Keating Five S&L scandal of the Eighties.

"John McCain has a long track record of working with members of both major political parties in Congress to craft and pass legislation that is in the country's best interests. Some people call him a maverick for breaking party lines and following an independent streak...I call him a true American. He understands that he's working for the American people and that's the kind of politician we need more of in Washington."

McCain's supposed independent streak is a myth. He's voted for Bush legislation 95% of the time. When he was fighting for the party nomination, he swore up and down how he supported Bush 100%.

"McCain was also right on the surge in Iraq. Whether you agree or disagree with the decision to invade Iraq, the fact is we're there. McCain has said since the beginning that we didn't have enough troops there to get the job done right. It took way too long, but President Bush finally realized this and sent more troops last year. The result has been a reduction in the level of violence and an opportunity for the necessary political changes to occur."

We still haven't seen the end of things in Iraq. McCain also said we'd be there for 100 years. He's made a joke out of our foreign policy by singing "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" at a townhall meeting.

"McCain is right on torture. If anyone is qualified to speak out about torture, it's John McCain. He was tortured for over 5 years while a POW in Vietnam and has sharply criticized the Bush administration for its use of water boarding and other torture techniques."

This is one area where McCain has dared to split with the Bush administration.

But there are too many disturbing facts about McCain for me to consider voting for him for president. Foremost is his hair-trigger temper and tendency to erupt in foul mouthed outbursts with his peers. I think he'd be a disaster as our head of state.
 

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