Disappearing Cotton Eco Cycles?

[glenfieldmathk1]

Bosch / Siemens changes

Sorry for delay responding.
It looks to have been covered already by Logixx, but yep, BSH have removed Eco Perfect and added a cotton coloured cycle which is basically Cotton eco perfect. Eco 40-60 also added.

I find the new models usually appear first on marks electrical website (that just happens to be my local shop). The range of new Bosch Siemens appears there, without images or descriptions, and says delivery in 8-14 days (basically a preorder). Having searched the web with their provided model numbers, that's how I find out about new models.

www.markselectrical.co.uk

 

[logixx]

I unpacked a dishwasher at our store today. It's currently rated A+++ for energy efficiency. It already came with the old and new label. On the new label label, it was rated D.

 

[henene4]

The EU literature does offer some cracy stuff yeah.
I think that with some models it's down to capacity.

Which model was it if you remember by any chance?

 

[logixx]

Siemens SN458S00IE iQ500

 

[henene4]

While I yet have to get down and dirty with the exact maths behind it I do think that its 13 place setting rating will probably be the main culprit.

I don't think the new label includes other cycles as well besides Eco, but the lack of Zeolith drying bumps the other cycles efficencys down as well, but I do not know if that has any weight to that.

 

[mielerod69]

New EU energy label dishwashers

Hi henene4,

I found this information regarding the changes in the energy label

https://www.siemens-home.bsh-group....ue-energielabel#/Togglebox=8427365-8427256-1/

 

[warmsecondrinse]

"Kinda confusing."

AMEN!

Am I missing something here?

- 40-60 vs 40/60 Is there an actual difference between the two nomenclatures?

- 40C vs 60C That's a rather large temperature difference. Couldn't 60C shorten the life of garments designed for 40? Conversely couldn't 60c remove stains that 40C would not? I.e. How can a cycle be both 40C *AND* 60C?

- How can a 'Hygiene 60C' substitute for 'Boil Wash', which I assume is 90C? From that, how would 'Hygiene 60C' be different from non-Hygiene 60C?

- Bosch 'Night Wash Option' How on earth do you lower noise levels without changing the cycles?

Am I missing something? This kind of looks like an expression of a notion I thought was uniquely American: Changing a label changes the thing itself.

Example: There's a manufacturer that sells 'Extra Strength' and 'Migraine' medications. They have completely different packaging and marketed as two different things. However, they have the exact same ingredients in the exact same dosages so they're actually identical.

 

[logixx]

Well, Eco 60C cycles usually don't reach that temp anyway. The lowest I've heard of was 25C - I think those were Electrolux and LG machines.

Night cycles will either reduce or eliminate spins to make the wash quieter.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Got it. Thanks.

 

[foraloysius]

Hygieny 60C cycle is often called Allergy cycle. They have in common that 60C is maintained during a full hour of the wash in order to kill dustmites.

Classic temperature selections in the past were 95, 60, 40 and 30 degrees C. 95 for whites, 60 for light colors, 40 for dark colors and 30 for delicates. During the energy crisis in the 70's a dedicated 60 degrees cycle for whites was developed to save energy. Those e-cycles were longer than the regular 60 degrees cycles. Some machines used a somewhat higher temperature, AEG's e-cycle was at 67 degrees C.

 

[henene4]

Issue was that with the old label, you could end up with a machine that could not reach 60C at all and you had to default to higher temps.

From a sanitation standpoint, there is verry little reason to go beyond 60C in a household setting.
90C was mostly just used to bleach the heck out of whites.

Most viruses get deactivated just with soap and water.
Most bacteria start to die at 50C.
Most fungii spores don't get deactivated unless you keep verry high temperatures for verry long - verry hard to properly do thermicly anyway - and are better killed chemicly.

 

[panthera]

I may have been the only person in Europe to have

Found the symbols useful. Perhaps because they served as a quick shorthand for me - this one means this set of steps by the washer, this one means that.

They sure weren't popular with most of my friends and students, though.

As to temperature and sanitation, Henrik is right about chemicals doing the job at lower temperatures.

 

The old rules still apply to hygiene, though - first remove the gross dirt, then go after the remainder to get rid of the microbes.

 

Here in the US, of course, using vintage washers, top drawer detergents, phosphates, 63°C warm water and chlorine bleach, we get our clothes quite satisfactorily clean. I don't see how anyone in the US gets clothes clean with the ice-cold two drops of water, filthy machines and barely able to do anything mechanically washers currently on offer.

This may be why we have such strongly scented fabric 'softeners'.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Thank you all for the info. That certainly makes things a lot clearer.

Cold water "clean":

It's been explained to me that one can compensate adequately for the lower temperatures chemically. I.e. Detergents, etc. designed for cold water use. However, I seem to remember reading somewhere that such detergents have a rather large carbon footprint in production, but that's another story.

Those pesky laws of physics show up for the rest of the cleaning process so the problems you mentioned show up. A number of years ago I rented a very comfortable, but extremely tiny efficiency from a friend. i did have use of their then new FL pair of GE's. I wound up getting very satisfactory cleaning by using the quickest available 'hot'* wash followed by a 'rinse&spin' on 'hot'. One time my friend w/family had to leave with the first of many loads just started. As they were VERY good to me I told her I'd be home so if it wasn't too weird for them I'd be happy to keep their process going. Later, my friend noticed how clean their clothes were and asked me how i did it. I explained and she told me that she always used cold because _________________ (fill in the usual reasons). I gave a brief explanation on the role of temps vis a vis clean clothes. So she started experimenting and made some changes

As to the 'why?'

Stereotypical American over abundance of the sheeple gene combined with being unwilling/unable to apply logic. To wit: Dirty clothes x water used x water temp x cleaning agents == clean clothes + clean washer. If you want to keep 'clean clothes + clean washer' as your solution set and you change 'water temp', you have to change at least one other element of the equation.

That;s my best guess, at any rate. YMMV.


* a 'hot' setting yielded real-life 'warm' for the usual reasons.

 

[panthera]

Jim,

Laundress has explained all those variables and how they must be exchanged, so I won't repeat what you and she so clearly explained.

What is (finally) clear and shouldn't be a problem for anyone is that a second rinse does more to clean things than any other easy solution one can chose.

Personally, I like clean clothes so it's vigorous agitation, 63°C warm water (145<span style="font-size: 12pt;">°</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">F), top-notch enzymatic detergents and bleach with two thorough rinses.</span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">I just don't get why the simple laws of physics and their derivatives (raise the temperature 10</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">°C and the reaction doubles in intensity) doesn't seem to make sense to Americans who do laundry.</span>

 

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Agreed. At least to know the general concept of 'more heat --> more action', ESPECIALLY when dealing with oil-based stains.

But why would laundry be exempted from the Dilbertization of America?

I want to print out thousands of these forms to hand out every day:

http://www.leany.com/logic/Adams.html

If I had a dollar for every time I was in Dilbert's situation (link below) I'd be a very, very rich man.

https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-03-24

 

[logixx]

New Bosch manual (from the model in post #1).

 

[rolls_rapide]

Consumption Values...

Hmm, so, based on that chart, the 'Cottons @ 60°C' only gets to a maximum of 55°C - and even then, only for five minutes!

So, in order to get a hotter temperature, you'd have to go to 90°C... which might in itself also be dumbed down to 80°C or less?

 

[mrboilwash]

My 16 years old Miele only goes up to 55° C on Cottons 60° and unless it`s a very full load once the temperature is reached it does not reheat.

When it was new I complained here on AW.org that it doesn`t heat right and all I got from the group was disbelieve and sarcasm.
This was years before Warentest and Which came onto the subject and washer manufacturers then responded with dedicated eco cycles in addition to the normal cycles.

I also measured the 95° C cycle and surprise it is only 89° C, but I think the reason for this is not energy conservation but washer protection. Had the thermostat fail on an older AEG and the steam deformed the plastic detergent drawer so bad it had to be replaced.

 

[henene4]

There was a certain point in the Novotronic generation where the 60C cottons cycle actually became 50C/55C.
Pretty sure that any A rated Novotronic does that, which should mean 5kg at 0.95kWh in the manual are an indicator for that.

Honestly never thought much of the whole "oh it dosen't keep temp". I mean it will be hotter than 50C for more than 20min probably...
That 55C figure for 5min actually means that that is the highest temperature it will reach for a timespan of 5min, meaning it might verry well reach 60, just not for 5min continously.

Actually more of a concern to me is that the 40-60 cycle actually reaches up to 50C.
Dunno, but don't want my 40s washed at 50...

 

[logixx]

There was a video on YouTube at some point where a service tech hooked an older gen Miele up to his laptop and set it to Cottons 95C. The target temp was shown as 85C.