Disappearing Cotton Eco Cycles?

[henene4]

Issue was that with the old label, you could end up with a machine that could not reach 60C at all and you had to default to higher temps.

From a sanitation standpoint, there is verry little reason to go beyond 60C in a household setting.
90C was mostly just used to bleach the heck out of whites.

Most viruses get deactivated just with soap and water.
Most bacteria start to die at 50C.
Most fungii spores don't get deactivated unless you keep verry high temperatures for verry long - verry hard to properly do thermicly anyway - and are better killed chemicly.

 

[panthera]

I may have been the only person in Europe to have

Found the symbols useful. Perhaps because they served as a quick shorthand for me - this one means this set of steps by the washer, this one means that.

They sure weren't popular with most of my friends and students, though.

As to temperature and sanitation, Henrik is right about chemicals doing the job at lower temperatures.

 

The old rules still apply to hygiene, though - first remove the gross dirt, then go after the remainder to get rid of the microbes.

 

Here in the US, of course, using vintage washers, top drawer detergents, phosphates, 63°C warm water and chlorine bleach, we get our clothes quite satisfactorily clean. I don't see how anyone in the US gets clothes clean with the ice-cold two drops of water, filthy machines and barely able to do anything mechanically washers currently on offer.

This may be why we have such strongly scented fabric 'softeners'.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Thank you all for the info. That certainly makes things a lot clearer.

Cold water "clean":

It's been explained to me that one can compensate adequately for the lower temperatures chemically. I.e. Detergents, etc. designed for cold water use. However, I seem to remember reading somewhere that such detergents have a rather large carbon footprint in production, but that's another story.

Those pesky laws of physics show up for the rest of the cleaning process so the problems you mentioned show up. A number of years ago I rented a very comfortable, but extremely tiny efficiency from a friend. i did have use of their then new FL pair of GE's. I wound up getting very satisfactory cleaning by using the quickest available 'hot'* wash followed by a 'rinse&spin' on 'hot'. One time my friend w/family had to leave with the first of many loads just started. As they were VERY good to me I told her I'd be home so if it wasn't too weird for them I'd be happy to keep their process going. Later, my friend noticed how clean their clothes were and asked me how i did it. I explained and she told me that she always used cold because _________________ (fill in the usual reasons). I gave a brief explanation on the role of temps vis a vis clean clothes. So she started experimenting and made some changes

As to the 'why?'

Stereotypical American over abundance of the sheeple gene combined with being unwilling/unable to apply logic. To wit: Dirty clothes x water used x water temp x cleaning agents == clean clothes + clean washer. If you want to keep 'clean clothes + clean washer' as your solution set and you change 'water temp', you have to change at least one other element of the equation.

That;s my best guess, at any rate. YMMV.


* a 'hot' setting yielded real-life 'warm' for the usual reasons.

 

[panthera]

Jim,

Laundress has explained all those variables and how they must be exchanged, so I won't repeat what you and she so clearly explained.

What is (finally) clear and shouldn't be a problem for anyone is that a second rinse does more to clean things than any other easy solution one can chose.

Personally, I like clean clothes so it's vigorous agitation, 63°C warm water (145<span style="font-size: 12pt;">°</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">F), top-notch enzymatic detergents and bleach with two thorough rinses.</span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">I just don't get why the simple laws of physics and their derivatives (raise the temperature 10</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">°C and the reaction doubles in intensity) doesn't seem to make sense to Americans who do laundry.</span>

 

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Agreed. At least to know the general concept of 'more heat --> more action', ESPECIALLY when dealing with oil-based stains.

But why would laundry be exempted from the Dilbertization of America?

I want to print out thousands of these forms to hand out every day:

http://www.leany.com/logic/Adams.html

If I had a dollar for every time I was in Dilbert's situation (link below) I'd be a very, very rich man.

https://dilbert.com/strip/2019-03-24

 

[logixx]

New Bosch manual (from the model in post #1).

 

[rolls_rapide]

Consumption Values...

Hmm, so, based on that chart, the 'Cottons @ 60°C' only gets to a maximum of 55°C - and even then, only for five minutes!

So, in order to get a hotter temperature, you'd have to go to 90°C... which might in itself also be dumbed down to 80°C or less?

 

[mrboilwash]

My 16 years old Miele only goes up to 55° C on Cottons 60° and unless it`s a very full load once the temperature is reached it does not reheat.

When it was new I complained here on AW.org that it doesn`t heat right and all I got from the group was disbelieve and sarcasm.
This was years before Warentest and Which came onto the subject and washer manufacturers then responded with dedicated eco cycles in addition to the normal cycles.

I also measured the 95° C cycle and surprise it is only 89° C, but I think the reason for this is not energy conservation but washer protection. Had the thermostat fail on an older AEG and the steam deformed the plastic detergent drawer so bad it had to be replaced.

 

[henene4]

There was a certain point in the Novotronic generation where the 60C cottons cycle actually became 50C/55C.
Pretty sure that any A rated Novotronic does that, which should mean 5kg at 0.95kWh in the manual are an indicator for that.

Honestly never thought much of the whole "oh it dosen't keep temp". I mean it will be hotter than 50C for more than 20min probably...
That 55C figure for 5min actually means that that is the highest temperature it will reach for a timespan of 5min, meaning it might verry well reach 60, just not for 5min continously.

Actually more of a concern to me is that the 40-60 cycle actually reaches up to 50C.
Dunno, but don't want my 40s washed at 50...

 

[logixx]

There was a video on YouTube at some point where a service tech hooked an older gen Miele up to his laptop and set it to Cottons 95C. The target temp was shown as 85C.

 

[henene4]

Boiling Mieles

Actually had an encounter with a boiling Miele causing issue due to an NTC fault.

In the old student accomodation where I lived after I first moved out we had an old Miele Professional (non FU model).

I came back one day and the dispenser Front was warped.
Washed a boilwash that week and after an hour I came down and checked and it was in heating error (washing flashed) and aborted...

 

[logixx]

Didn't that happen during the endurance test by our consumer magazine as well? One of the three samples they had in their labs had an NTC fault and also started boiling.

 

[rolls_rapide]

I have memories of the likes of the Hoover 'New Wave' user manual (pictures 1&2) stating that they reduced the 95°C programme to something like 85°C, to save energy but still give a good wash. I think that is quite reasonable.

With the Panasonic, the 90°C programme is actually only 80°C. With the 'Speed' option, around 70°C.

The 60° programme reaches around 62°; with Speed option, 50°C.

The 'Quick 50 Mins' wash only gets up to about 28°. But if you manually fill it with hot tap water, it can indeed achieve 60°. It's a pity they didn't just lengthen the time to one hour.

With Mum's new Bosch, the Cottons 60°C does seem to achieve that temperature - even with the 1 hour 'speed' option activated.

 

[mrboilwash]

Hi Rolls
Find it interesting that the whites cycle was recommended for "articles that are white or color-fast to boiling"

Always thought boiling colors was more of a German thing in the past.
We even had the brand name "Indranthen" for boil-proof colors on many articles but it seems to have disappeared somewhere in the 70s. It was kind of a guarantee that for instance a black and white striped towel wouldn`t ruin the rest of you whites. Funny there is hardly any information on the web today, no way of telling if it was a BASF or Bayer brand.

Can you tell me in what time frame these New Waves were build?

 

[washerguy02]

Newwave time frame

Mrboilwash - the Hoover Newwaves were built between 1993 and 1997/98

 

[launderess]

" Bosch 'Night Wash Option' "

Bumping up old thread to explain "night wash".

Now have AEG/Electrolux toplader up and running can explain.

AEG says these washers have "silent system", which is true, one can barely hear the thing running. Since my washer is MOL it doesn't offer "night wash", but manual explains...

Night wash omits final spin and IIRC all intermittent as well (after rinses). When one awakes next day or whatever machine must be set to "spin" or "pump" to remove water/extract wash.

It is the spinning which makes some noise on this washer, nothing like the older Miele, but never the less in often close confines of many European homes you'd hear this AEG washer spinning say if placed in a flat.

Not spinning also eliminates any vibrations that might cause noise as well.

Night settings are big for European dishwashers and washing machines as many areas offer cheaper electric rates over night (presumably because demand is less).

On this side of pond with rapid roll out out of smart meters some electric companies are offering incentives for people to use power overnight IIRC. Still it's nothing like what one sees overseas.

 

[henene4]

Honestly

Have never seen anyone actually use night electricity offerings.

The required meters are rare in most rented spaces and in most cases if you choose a night tarif, the day time electricity gets more expensive to the point that people just don't bother.
Especially with weekends often being set as peak thus high price time zones.

For the most part, night cycles are just used if you run a cycle and don't want to be disturbed though honestly, I just set a time delay so that when it starts I am already sound asleep.

 

[launderess]

Energy Savings

While my older AEG OKO-Lavamat has "energy savings" cycle (washes for longer period using less water, but still reaches 140F), it does not have "40-60 mix".

Meanwhile the Electrolux/AEG toplader has the aforementioned "energy saving" cycle (and it does same thing going by consumption tables listed in manual), the 40-60 Mix is another beast entirely.

Theory seems to be washing both man-made and natural fiber textiles in same wash where former would get 104F and other 140F. Machine is programmed with various parameters to heat water only to 104F, but deliver same results on cottons/linens as if they were washed at 140F. Cycle runs a whopping three and nearly one half hours (same as energy savings), so haven't bothered yet because just don't have that kind of time for one wash load.

Interestingly AEG/Electrolux removed 50C/120F temp (my older OK0-Lavamat has it). That lower end of "hot" water range is perfectly fine for synthetics long as one uses cool down rinse cycles. This is something both my AEG washers will do if either "Sensitive" (Oko-Lavamat) or "Rinse Pluse" (AEG toplader) is selected.

 

[launderess]

We even had the brand name "Indranthen" for boil-pro

This may or may not be related but as one who sews/does needlework am up on vintage threads and yards long advertising as being "boil proof". Have various old spools of thread where labels clearly state such.

This would make sense as color began to to seep into not just woven fabrics, but threads used for sewing. Embroidery yard/threads long came in colors, and most were not color fast. Once in an dumb move hand washed a rather grimy bit of needlepoint. Thing survived a quick cold hand wash, but when hung up to dry could actually see colors draining from yarns/threads.

Since well into 1980's much white and light color textiles were often boil washed, threads would have to be made stable (as in little to no shrinking), and fast colors to high temperature washing.

By 1990's or so manufacturing processes had improved to point nearly all threads used for sewing were stable to high temperature washing, so "boil wash" bit was sort of redundant. Then you have fact since energy crisis of 1970's wash temperatures on both sides of Atlantic have gradually but steadily decreased.

While boil washing was once a routine part of wash day, it isn't so much any longer. Hot water might be 140F or 120F nowadays with 104F or even 80F becoming far too common.

Finally trade and consumer laws caught up with textile makers. They now had to provide care labels on things, and if consumer followed them to letter and something went wrong it fell on maker. Running colors on all sorts of textiles from garments to linens soon became not acceptable, and makers leery of facing liability stepped up pressure on yarn/thread makers to produce stable products.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Night-time electricity tariffs

I've lived in a few places with 'Economy 7' (also known as 'white meter' in general parlance). Basically an electro-mechanical clock clunked over to record the cheaper rates at 11:30pm-12:30am (yes, 1 whole hour), then back again to normal rate for the next hour. Then 1:30am-7:30am was cheap rate again.

The good thing was that the power sockets were also on the cheap rate, so you could run the dishwasher, washing machine and the tumble dryer on the cheaper rate too. Usually by setting the delay start timer on the appliance, or by using a timeswitch adapter.

The heating in the flats were electric storage heaters (Creda, Dimplex). And the water heater was an immersion element type.

There was another type of cheap tariff electricity which replaced the Economy 7 version, called 'Total Heating with Total Control' - but it was a total con.

In this version, only the storage heaters, immersion heater, and electric fire were on the cheap rate. The power sockets were on the normal dearer rate, and the storage heaters had booster convector heaters built in to them too - which were wired into the normal dearer mains.