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Dishwasher Detergent Test - Phosphated vs Regular
- Thread starter whirlcool
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Never, ever again i want to use a different kind of detergent.
My dishwasher is 2 year old, Kenmore full size portable bought brand new at sears.
The results were always "ok". once in a while one or other item would come out dirty. and everything always came out with that horrible film.
I finally decided to buy a whole carton of Cascade Fryer boil out.
I ran a cycle with the empty dishwasher and when the pre-rinse drained I already wanted to throw up. The dishwasher looked clean, no visible deposits. It drained like somebody had a diarrhea in the dishwasher.
The main wash drained the same, and the rinses drained clear. Even the pump noise changed, it sounds like the dishwasher is saying "Thank you".
Just in case I repeated, everything drained clear.
When I opened the dishwasher, OMG! I could then realize how dirty it was. it now looks like brand new, never used.
First load with dishes.... bob load.... The difference was SCARY. everything came out squeaky-clean, glasses shining, cutlery looking like each item was hand polished.
I'm glad I bought a carton, I even gave a box to Kevin and I'm seriously thinking about buying 2 or 3 more cartons just in case this product ends up discontinued by the Eco-nazi.
My dishwasher is 2 year old, Kenmore full size portable bought brand new at sears.
The results were always "ok". once in a while one or other item would come out dirty. and everything always came out with that horrible film.
I finally decided to buy a whole carton of Cascade Fryer boil out.
I ran a cycle with the empty dishwasher and when the pre-rinse drained I already wanted to throw up. The dishwasher looked clean, no visible deposits. It drained like somebody had a diarrhea in the dishwasher.
The main wash drained the same, and the rinses drained clear. Even the pump noise changed, it sounds like the dishwasher is saying "Thank you".
Just in case I repeated, everything drained clear.
When I opened the dishwasher, OMG! I could then realize how dirty it was. it now looks like brand new, never used.
First load with dishes.... bob load.... The difference was SCARY. everything came out squeaky-clean, glasses shining, cutlery looking like each item was hand polished.
I'm glad I bought a carton, I even gave a box to Kevin and I'm seriously thinking about buying 2 or 3 more cartons just in case this product ends up discontinued by the Eco-nazi.
ultralux88
Well-known member
I don’t think phosphates will ever go away completely, those of us who know what good detergent is will always be able to round some up!
I Don't Use Phosphates And Have Perfect Results
In water that is about 7 gains of hardness.
All it takes is 1TB of cheap liquid or powered detergent in the 1st cup and a premium tablet in the main wash, and best of all no glassware etching and DW damage and less harm to the environment that you get from using phosphates.
John L.
In water that is about 7 gains of hardness.
All it takes is 1TB of cheap liquid or powered detergent in the 1st cup and a premium tablet in the main wash, and best of all no glassware etching and DW damage and less harm to the environment that you get from using phosphates.
John L.
What dishwasher damage
with phosphates?
with phosphates?
ultralux88
Well-known member
I’d say I have to have much harder water, though I have not yet had it tested (testing is more for my own curiosity, as the water here is hard enough to leave deposits on everything it touches) but completely intend on installing a softener. But the water deposits were definitely collecting in and damaging the internals of the dishwasher. Chunks of calcium seemed to be growing down in the pump or something and then eventually breaking loose and clogging the holes in the wash arm. Not to mention this schmaggy crud that looked kinda gray paper pulp kept appearing in all the crannies of the dishwasher, and it smelt like a manky dog covered in slobber. And worse yet, every time I’d clean it all out, run dishwasher cleaner through it would always come back, and I never really felt the dishwasher cleaner removed the water scale on the inside of the tub or all over the wash arms. I felt this was a recent problem, as I can remember in the past never having anything but a fresh and clean smell when you open the dishwasher, and I never saw crud collect in there at all, nor water scale. And I also remember when we used powdered Cascade, and the dishes never had water spots and we didn’t use Jet Dry. At one point I remember my mom not buying Cascade anymore, she said it just didn’t seem like it was cleaning the dishes anymore. The dishes and the dishwasher were in a steady decline at that point. Just the other day someone I know was lamenting that they remembered when they could slop the dirty dishes into the washer with no need for scraping or rinsing, and no concern for how much food was on them, as it all vanished magically during the cycle. Most people have been blaming it on the dishwasher and I at this point feel it’s the detergent more than anything.
lakewebsterkid
Well-known member
Damage
Yeah, no damage here at all. Silverware shines like new. Glasses have no etching and are soft feeling, rather than ‘sqeeky’. No residue in the DW, no mineral build up anywhere with 13 grains hardness. We have positive comments on our dishes, glasses, mugs, and silverware at every holiday. The Bosch does great, but does just that bit better with STPP added. Rinse aid setting is at the lowest possible level, and everything comes out with no water spots or streaking.
Yeah, no damage here at all. Silverware shines like new. Glasses have no etching and are soft feeling, rather than ‘sqeeky’. No residue in the DW, no mineral build up anywhere with 13 grains hardness. We have positive comments on our dishes, glasses, mugs, and silverware at every holiday. The Bosch does great, but does just that bit better with STPP added. Rinse aid setting is at the lowest possible level, and everything comes out with no water spots or streaking.
I will give credit to P&G, they masterfully used the "crisis" created by the phosphate ban to drive their business, particularly the mass switch to the higher-priced packs.
Prior to the ban I used to buy a store brand detergent for $2 a box. Based on the smell, I think it had chlorine bleach, not sure about enzymes but it did the job well enough for me.
After the ban I went to the Cascade brand powder, then the "deluxe" Cascade powder and finally to the Cascade packs to find something that worked as well as the old store brand.
I think there are three versions of powders now with enzymes: Cascade Complete, Finish and a new Walmart brand. I've been meaning to give them a try. The Finish powder is on sale locally this week for $4 for a 75oz box so I guess now is the time.
Prior to the ban I used to buy a store brand detergent for $2 a box. Based on the smell, I think it had chlorine bleach, not sure about enzymes but it did the job well enough for me.
After the ban I went to the Cascade brand powder, then the "deluxe" Cascade powder and finally to the Cascade packs to find something that worked as well as the old store brand.
I think there are three versions of powders now with enzymes: Cascade Complete, Finish and a new Walmart brand. I've been meaning to give them a try. The Finish powder is on sale locally this week for $4 for a 75oz box so I guess now is the time.
lakewebsterkid
Well-known member
Upward progression
We did the same. We always used Cascade basic gel until 2010. Then we switched “up” to Cascade Gel Complete, which actually was worse at the time, then to Cascade Powder, then Cascade Complete powder, and so forth through the ActionPacs. I agree that it was likely a strategic move.
We did the same. We always used Cascade basic gel until 2010. Then we switched “up” to Cascade Gel Complete, which actually was worse at the time, then to Cascade Powder, then Cascade Complete powder, and so forth through the ActionPacs. I agree that it was likely a strategic move.
My understanding is that chlorine bleach and enzymes are not compatible together so a product cannot have both.
lakewebsterkid
Well-known member
DADoES
Correct, bleach generally denatures enzymes in my understanding.
Correct, bleach generally denatures enzymes in my understanding.
Before they all went phosphate free in the US, I remember CR's highest-rated detergent was Cascade Complete gel (with enzymes, no bleach). I used to use it and it worked very well. After the reformulation to phosphate free, Cascade Complete went from the top position to the very bottom, as their lowest-scoring detergent at that time.
Cascade Complete Gel is now CR's highest-scoring liquid detergent. However, ratings for tablets/pacs range from 85 down to 74, whereas liquid detergents go from 69 down to 33. So even the worst pac scores more highly than the best liquid. Interestingly, Cascade Complete gel's rating for cleaning dishes is "excellent" (the highest score) and cleaning pots is "good" and this is equal to or better than many of the higher-scoring pacs. The difference is that the pacs score more highly for water spots, redeposit and film/discolouration. CR does say that if you have soft water, then you can pay more attention to the cleaning scores and less attention to these other scores. So it's very much a case of YMMV.
CR stopped testing powdered DW detergents a few months ago, stating that consumers are moving away from powders and are buying pacs and liquids these days. It's a shame as Cascade Complete powder scored a very respectable 79 and was equal to or better than many of the pacs.
My partner's parents in the UK have two F&P dish drawers. Their water is horribly hard at 22 GPG (US scale) and they have no whole-house water softener. The built-in water softeners in both of their dishwashers were broken and they were having terrible results after the European detergents went phosphate free. They had no idea why until I told them. So they had the water softener fixed in only one of the two machines. Now that machine produces crystal clear results. I bought some STPP for them and they add it to the other one with the broken water softener. The difference the phosphate makes in that machine is amazing, night and day. They also tried adding phosphate to the one with the working water softener, but it makes no difference in that machine. They use Finish TOL pacs such as Quantum.
I gave them Finish Pro powder to try (same as Cascade Fryer Boil Out -- phosphates and chlorine, but no enzymes). It does largely solve the hard water problems and leaves everything shiny. But without enzymes, it struggles with things like starch from rice and doesn't clean as well.
[this post was last edited: 1/24/2020-11:49]
Cascade Complete Gel is now CR's highest-scoring liquid detergent. However, ratings for tablets/pacs range from 85 down to 74, whereas liquid detergents go from 69 down to 33. So even the worst pac scores more highly than the best liquid. Interestingly, Cascade Complete gel's rating for cleaning dishes is "excellent" (the highest score) and cleaning pots is "good" and this is equal to or better than many of the higher-scoring pacs. The difference is that the pacs score more highly for water spots, redeposit and film/discolouration. CR does say that if you have soft water, then you can pay more attention to the cleaning scores and less attention to these other scores. So it's very much a case of YMMV.
CR stopped testing powdered DW detergents a few months ago, stating that consumers are moving away from powders and are buying pacs and liquids these days. It's a shame as Cascade Complete powder scored a very respectable 79 and was equal to or better than many of the pacs.
My partner's parents in the UK have two F&P dish drawers. Their water is horribly hard at 22 GPG (US scale) and they have no whole-house water softener. The built-in water softeners in both of their dishwashers were broken and they were having terrible results after the European detergents went phosphate free. They had no idea why until I told them. So they had the water softener fixed in only one of the two machines. Now that machine produces crystal clear results. I bought some STPP for them and they add it to the other one with the broken water softener. The difference the phosphate makes in that machine is amazing, night and day. They also tried adding phosphate to the one with the working water softener, but it makes no difference in that machine. They use Finish TOL pacs such as Quantum.
I gave them Finish Pro powder to try (same as Cascade Fryer Boil Out -- phosphates and chlorine, but no enzymes). It does largely solve the hard water problems and leaves everything shiny. But without enzymes, it struggles with things like starch from rice and doesn't clean as well.
[this post was last edited: 1/24/2020-11:49]
ultralux88
Well-known member
I would like to see a detergent with enzymes and STPP rather than bleach. In laundry I mix the Bubble Bandit and a heavy enzyme detergent called Rockin Green Active Wear. The combination of the two really gets things clean. I have bright white whites and I never use bleach. I only use 1 scoop each (both have scoops that are about 3 tbsp for a full scoop), even on the super plus capacity setting. I can actually call the clothes completely clean with just the enzyme detergent, but I notice I still get a water scale scum in the washer’s tub and agitator. That sort of brownish ring around where the top of the water level is, and it disappeared in just a couple loads with one scoop of the Bubble Bandit added.
I got my bubble Bandit yesterday. I drugged out all my meds and about 10 of the Disposable end quote glad containers could I use for my lunches. Put everything in used pots and pans with high temp and everything resulted in a noticeable Improvement several of them bugs are almost completely stain free. In fact when I open the door and the lights inside came on I had forgotten how much of a reflection the lights show off of the stainless steel tub when turned on. And that's with me using lemon shine dishwasher cleaner every month in the dishwasher. Tonight will be a first soiled load.
ultralux88
Well-known member
You'll notice you don't feel the need to ever use any kind of dishwasher cleaner again. Let's face it, I feel if its not getting the inside of itself clean, is it really cleaning your dishes?
Let us know how the Bubble Bandit works out for you, Bob. You should see a big improvement in your hard water, especially when using high temperatures. Everything should emerge shiny with no calcium build up. We shall look forward to hearing if you find the lack of enzymes to be a problem for proteins and starches. I find that powders containing chlorine and phosphate (but no enzymes) do a great job on most things but can't cope with certain starchy residues, such as stuck-on rice, or protein residue from baked chicken. If this turns out to be the case, you could also add some enzyme detergent for the prewash and use the Bubble Bandit for the main wash -- best of both worlds!
ultralux88
Well-known member
I’ll actually do that, add a Finish tab to the prewash if I feel I have some very dirty stuff in there.
