DOE Regulations - Air Conditioning

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Right you are Olav. Today many people hit the AC switch even when the air is perfectly comfortable. Years ago when the late Alistair Cook did that great series "America" on PBS he commented on San Francisco and said "where anything over 70 degrees is considered a heatwave." The mammoth department store in SF where I worked which had already been there for almost 100 years had no air conditioning and I don't recall customers complaining. I guess things change.

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A/C Warranties

We found that when we were looking for a new system, only the top shelf brands had a 10 year warranty. Lots of the others had 5 year or even 2 year warranties. We have noticed that this newer system does not dehumidify as good as our 1994 Trane unit did. That unit held summertime humidity down to around 40% where our 2011 American Standard(Seer 16) unit will only get it down to about 48-52%. The A/C contractor told us that modern units just work this way and if I want to see 40% again, buy a dehumidifier. He also noted that as long as you are below 60% humidity, you are OK.
 
In 2014, I replaced a 20 year old 10 SEER Carrier unit with a 13 SEER Bryant unit. The old unit was about to die and I wanted the efficiency credit. The new system has a variable speed blower. I can't really tell if there's a difference in dehumidification or a savings in operational cost,

The contractors at the time we're suggesting numerous options. One contractor suggested the heat pump so that I would use the boiler less. The house has hot water boiler heat and forced a/c. The ductwork for the air conditioning that was installed in 1993, isn't laid out appropriately to provide heat. It wasn't designed to supply heat it was designed to supply air conditioning. I went against that option partly because I really enjoy hot water boiler heat. Another contractor suggested the 13 SEER unit. I asked about going with the higher efficiency unit and he commented that it wasn't worth the expense of the unit for the potential minor savings. We will say if the electronic controlled variable speed blower shits the bed and causes me to pass out when I have it repaired. I am not a fan of overly complicated machinery. It tends to be nice when it works and then costing an arm and a leg to fix it when it does not. I can't really tell that it does much except that it does start slow and ramp up to full speed within about 30 seconds and reduce speed in the final 30 seconds of operation.

I do think all this energy efficiency is a crock of shit. As long as there are people standing with the front door wide open with the air conditioning running, where is the efficiency saved?
 
I am all for higher efficiency AC and heaters.  The units use less electricity or natural gas so you pay less every month.  The downside is that cheaper units with lesser warranties cause problems because they are cheaper to begin with.

 

I think it is far better to have a system that uses less electric and has a dehumidify routine than to have the older over sized units that gobble electricity, especially for those of us that have high electric rates and even pay more when we use over 500 kWhs a month.

 

If I read the original post correctly this regulation applies to new units that are sold, and has nothing to do with turning off the system every 15 minutes...although your electric company may very well want to do this...but that is another topic.  Now there is one thing and that is that even if you get an outside unit that is rated at 14 or more...if you don't replace the inside cooling coil you will not get this efficiency you will have an unmatched system and perhaps more humidity inside as a result.    So when ever you replace your outside unit with a higher efficiency one you need to have a matched system...an inside condensing coil that matches your outside compressor.  Also your new system should be using a TXV so that the refrigerant  flow can be controlled based on the temperature of your inside coil.  I think this helps with  humidity control. 
 
I don't think that making 14 SEER the starting point is necessarily a bad thing. I was in the business back in the very early 90's when 10 SEER was made the standard and 12 was ultra high efficiency. But where does it stop ? I would argue that there is little return on the additional cost once you get to 16+ because much of the time the system runs longer at a slower fan cfm or people are simply keeping the house colder in search of the comfort (humidity) that they had in the past. No real energy savings in the end just like no water savings when you flush the toilette twice or run the dishwasher on a 2 hour cycle. I see many 10 year warranties on lower price equipment. Goodman offers it as well as others. There is a point of diminishing return on efficiency. It still takes energy to move heat. Coils are about maxed out in size. There are some condensing units that are so big that you almost need a lader to go down inside if you need to get to the compressor.
 
I live in an area that will quite happily get to the magic "120ºF" once or twice a summer. That is the only time our current A/C unit will struggle to keep even 80ºF setpoint. The rest of the time, the system cycles quite happily, so its mostly oversized for what it does.

Still, the humidity is kept at about 40%, even on balmy nights where the temperature outdoors is equal or slightly cooler than inside.

As for my tolerance to heat, no, I don't like it one bit. Yes, it feels hot, but it doesn't bug me when I'm outside. Its just when all your furniture and everything is roasting hot and sticky that things start to bug me. Or the fact that even at 68ºF, I have a perspiration issue already - and it won't take much to create unpleasant odors. Add a hot 104+ day in, without A/C, and even a 10ft pole would be too liberal!

And cars? No way you can get one of those to cool off reasonably on a hot day. Those seats (whether leather or cloth-covered) stay hot no matter what (and they humidify the interior so much it isn't funny).

It would be nice, however, if A/C units were nice and quiet again. Like the systems Combo is mentioning (I'm amazed a 40 y/o system can deliver 13-SEER. I can imagine it would have cost squat to run when new with 70s electric prices).
Our system is quiet, although given its mounting place, it transmit very deep bass-frequencies into the house. The fan noise outside is all you hear - which is two large fan motors moving a ton of air.
 
indeed

yep,thermostatic expansion valve-a thermostat bulb/capillary tube on the evap coil controls the position of the valve.I'm thinking about adding one to my system as I have a suitable one on a spare A-coil.
 
Ok, so what I get from the comments is that the higher efficiency units technically cool as well as the older ones, but don't dehumidify as well. That might be fine in the dryer areas of the country but it won't work in humid areas. Most people will just set the thermostat lower and/or run a dehumidifier in effort to get comfortable. 

 

So then, a 16 SEER unit will consume less electricity than a 13 SEER unit + a dehumidifier? Why do I somehow doubt that?

 

Jim
 
We keep our SEER 16 unit set at 76F and it has no problem keeping the house cool. The Trane unit we used to have used R-22 Freon, the new system uses R-420. I don't know if it's the efficiency of the new unit or what but the air that comes out the vents is very COLD! I think it's something like 45F air. When the system was installed on a 90F day after having 3 days of no a/c at all it cooled the house down to 72F in 90 minutes.

We've tried to lower the temp to get lower humidity and all we get is a colder house, the humidity stays the same. The new unit does not run nearly as often as our old unit did but it's the same size unit (3.5 tons). Our old unit ran 12-15 hours per day in the summer and this one runs 6-8 hours per day. At first I thought maybe the unit was oversized and couldn't deal with the humidity because of lack of airflow, but the house doesn't feel humid or clammy and we haven't seen any mold or mildew anywhere. In the meantime in the summer we are saving about $80-90 per month on our electric bills.
 
Just looked up the warranty on the American Standard 4 ton unit that is 8 years old. The compressor has a 5 year warranty on it. Started having problems 2 weeks ago. The system was just not cooling but blowing air out at 75 degrees. Everything was running correctly. My repair guy added 2 1/2 lbs. of Freon and everything was fine. Left wed and came home sunday and its doing it again. They are coming out again today. I guess I have a leak somewhere. We have gone through a lot of vibrations here since they are working on a new road across the street. I don't know if this has anything to do with it but I don't think these were made to be bouncing around for weeks on end. Have a 5 ton unit right next to it with no problems though. Will wait to see what he finds today.

Jon
 
We bought our AS in 2011 and it came with the 10 year warranty. American Standard is now part of Trane. I wonder if Trane owned them when your system was installed? While the whole system has a 10 year warranty, labor is only covered for 5 years.
You wouldn't think that road work across the street could damage a outdoor unit.
 
warmsecondrinse

I have a 13 SEER Goodman single stage A/C. I suppose it qualifies as a high efficiency unit. It is a 2 ton unit mated to a 96% AFUE Goodman furnace, A coil, and air handler.

My new home is on a concrete slab, single level 1047 sq feet. I do notice somewhat higher humidity than I did when I lived in a circa 1986 condo. I probably have too many variables to pass judgement on the Goodman not being able to dehumidify; like I said, it runs full chat when the t-stat calls for cooling, no 2nd stage or low speed 1st stage. Same thing for the furnace. R38 in the attic is probably a factor in keeping the temp down so the AC does not have to run so much. Also I'm cooling 1 large living/kitchen area, 2 bedrooms and the house has Simonton vinyl windows with the low E glass.

I suppose a better test will be come winter when a furnace runs a lot up here in W. PA.
 
I get so tired of hearing the same old stuff...  My toilet need two flushes, my clothes are not clean, my furnace sucks and so on.  You know what?  My stuff works as it should.  I have a great low flush toilet that works every time, my FL Duet does an outstanding job of cleaning my clothes and my dual stage furnace keeps my home perfectly comfortable with much lower costs.

 

Want to know the secret?  I paid attention to what I bought.  I did the research.  I paid the money.  Change is inevitable, and without some push we'd still be getting  10 MPG in our cars and our homes would use 2x more energy.  Sure there is a learning curve for manufacturers and often they rush stuff into production that should not be made, but over time it all evens out.  As for disposable stuff that is a whole 'nuther story.
 
I spoke with him yesterday and he ordered a stop leak kit to introduce into the Freon. He is coming today to put it into the system along with topping off the Freon again. Hopefully this finds the leak and seals it. You would not think that road construction would cause this, but if you were here during construction you would change your mind. We have had stuff fall off of shelves. Glasses making their way to the front of cabinets, plates and lamps rattling all over the house. We have cracks in our floors in the basement, back steps and floor of the garage. Multiple lights burned out etc etc. We have at least 3 claims against the contractors insurance co. Our neighbors chimney is now worthless, he has had a room built onto his house that has dropped down a couple of inches plus his foundation although old is crumbling. We have a preschool down the street that has a lot of interior damage around doorways. They had to close off rooms because the ceiling tiles were coming down.There is an attorney that is going to handle all the cases together. This is just not us but along the length of the parkway being built. Many upset people. I could relate so many stories but not enough time here. So all in all I believe this a/c problem is a direct relation to the construction.

Jon
 
Evaporator welds fail over time from thermal cycling without any of those other things happening.

But if you can get the county or the contractor to pay for it, so much the better.
 
One of my concerns with the system we have is that the outdoor unit doesn't have the usual fins you find on units for cooling. This one has something that looks like its a bunch of tinsel strung together. I've seen this on several different brands.
I wonder why they switched to this type? It makes it harder to clean the dirt off the that part of the unit.
 
My American Standard air conditioners have those "spine fin" condensers. I don't find them difficult to clean but then my units are in a very clean area, no dirt, sand or plants. They seem to be very efficient.

 

I had these units installed a few years ago when the larger of the 2, 1999 Payne (cheap) units failed. Acting like "Mr. Know-It All" I bragged to everyone about how I knew everything about air conditioning and always kept the condenser fins clean and shiny. Well, they were shiny, but if I had bothered to put my glasses on I would have realized the "shine" was from the fins being bent over from the hose pressure. The unit overheated on one of our super-hot days and destroyed the components. I tried to straighten the fins with a "comb" but it was too late. I was a dummy X 10 and it was a pricey, stupid mistake.
 

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