Ran across this a few mins ago, new UL safety standards supposedly to take effect 3/20/2013. The article is dated Dec 2009.
Dryer Fire Safety
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Ran across this a few mins ago, new UL safety standards supposedly to take effect 3/20/2013. The article is dated Dec 2009.
georgect
Well-known member
but is it obtainable, at what cost
I'm sure these standards can be met but at what cost (passed on to us)?
Used to be dryers were the ceaper of the two laundry machines you could buy but now they match washer prices.
With this new UL update I suspect dryer prices my become higher than their washer counter part.
Will some manufactures just drop dryer line models.
I see a come back to the good old close line (which isn't a bad thing).
I'm sure these standards can be met but at what cost (passed on to us)?
Used to be dryers were the ceaper of the two laundry machines you could buy but now they match washer prices.
With this new UL update I suspect dryer prices my become higher than their washer counter part.
Will some manufactures just drop dryer line models.
I see a come back to the good old close line (which isn't a bad thing).
Expect old dryers from swap shops to be a "hot" commodity.These rules are too strigent to be practical.The dryers would be too costly to build and to buy.Who wraps their dryer in cheescloth while using it?
I don't understand ...
... the point of these new stringent codes.
Millions of Americans for generations have used the more "dangerous" design with no problem.
I'm tired of the government trying to protect us from the most stupid among us. If you're going to abuse your dryer and cause a fire, I say -- BURN BABY BURN!!!
It's called social Darwinism.
... the point of these new stringent codes.
Millions of Americans for generations have used the more "dangerous" design with no problem.
I'm tired of the government trying to protect us from the most stupid among us. If you're going to abuse your dryer and cause a fire, I say -- BURN BABY BURN!!!
It's called social Darwinism.
arbilab
Well-known member
Oy. I've been running dryers since 1954 and never got so much as a blister from one. Blister temp is prolonged exposure above 130F. What fabric combusts at 130F? NONE. Virtually NOTHING combusts at 130F. Not even gasoline!
Or 165F, the temperature where a turkey is done and the average dryer temperature. Happy thanksgiving.
Or 185F, the highest 'normal' dryer temp. Or 210F, where almost all overtemp thermos shut down.
This is a bunch of impotent bureaucrats trying to make themselves look like they're doing something.
Or 165F, the temperature where a turkey is done and the average dryer temperature. Happy thanksgiving.
Or 185F, the highest 'normal' dryer temp. Or 210F, where almost all overtemp thermos shut down.
This is a bunch of impotent bureaucrats trying to make themselves look like they're doing something.
Yes,as pointed out the FEW dryer fires that occur are from someone ABUSING their dryer.Now,are we going to have a bunch of silly regulations for dryers to "prevent" this?Dryers causing fires on their own are few and far between-I think those "Bureocrats" have dryer fires in their brains!
This is so much bull. Many dryer fires happen in the exhaust ductwork, outside of the cabinet. Older dryers often included belt switches that cut off the heat/power if a belt broke. They could go back to those and eliminate the situations causing "static" fires. Older Hamiltons had a fusible metal link safety thermostat that could not be reset but had to be replaced, once it melted, to restore the dryer to service so if there was a problem, it was fixed before a fire could start. It was usually people not cleaning the secondary screen in the Hamiliton's lint collector that caused the overheating. Maytag gas HOH dryers could set the felt seals at the front of the drum on fire, but that was an unusual event. If people throw lint behind the dryer where it ignites outside the dryer cabinet, how is all of this going to help? If people run dryers beyond the point where the rollers, seals or other drum suppport parts should be replaced, they are going to have lint and possibly small items escaping the drum and falling into the area where they could be ignited. Building anything that is failsafe for the criminally stupid is possible, but is it necessary?
UL standards are set by a group including manufacturers, the CPSC (government), and insurance companies. The reality in the US today is that if a fire burns down your house and it started in a brand x dryer the maker of brand x will be named in a lawsuit. The manufacturers all know this. I would guess by now that they have all been sued. A one in a hundred million event will happen multiple times per year. When a failure mode is noticed not addressing it opens brand x to bigger awards. These type of standards let the manufacturers prove their are products remain safe in crazy circumstances. Most users will never need these safety features but the legal system will cause their Development and inclusion. The UL standards make sure all manufactures have to have the same features and similar part costs. This probably hurts small manufacturers more than large ones. For the higher costs the industry keeps the products used viewed as safe. If the product is viewed as unsafe the whole market will shrink, not just the market for brand y products.
Given the discussion of redesign it is likely that there are a large number of machines on the market which already meet these requirements.
Given the discussion of redesign it is likely that there are a large number of machines on the market which already meet these requirements.
arbilab
Well-known member
Umm, 'UL' stands for United Lawyers. That is, if mfr meets their criteria it becomes very difficult to sue mfr successfully. Mfrs are much less interested in product integrity than in the integrity of their legal defenses.
A good product sells X many, as only a few consumers can even recognize a good product. A good LAWSUIT on the other hand, negates the profits of many good products for the sake of one person who managed to misuse theirs destructively.
Yes, I know that paragraph is an exaggerated simplification. Example, Boeing 747 was a good product but the cargo door latch design was defective and killed a handful of people (out of millions it did NOT kill) through absolutely no fault of their own. But the FAA had certified it airworthy and the NTSB blamed the cargo loader for shutting it incorrectly.
Well wait a tick. If it was designed correctly it would be impossible to shut it incorrectly. In the only case where NTSB took their judgement back and issued a revised one, they found the design defective, ordered it redesigned and retrofitted. Because a New Zealander whose son was a victim had the resources to have the broken door retrieved from the bottom of the Pacific and analyzed unarguably. Upon seeing the failure mode, a first-semester engineering student with any talent at all would say "that can't work". Yet with FAA approval and other substantive evidence of the problem, NTSB initially did the 'United Lawyers' thing to cover the industry in defiance of the truth.
Here's the Wiki on United 811. I don't know if it goes into the backstory of how NTSB was forced to recant, something that never happened before or since.
en.wikipedia.org
A good product sells X many, as only a few consumers can even recognize a good product. A good LAWSUIT on the other hand, negates the profits of many good products for the sake of one person who managed to misuse theirs destructively.
Yes, I know that paragraph is an exaggerated simplification. Example, Boeing 747 was a good product but the cargo door latch design was defective and killed a handful of people (out of millions it did NOT kill) through absolutely no fault of their own. But the FAA had certified it airworthy and the NTSB blamed the cargo loader for shutting it incorrectly.
Well wait a tick. If it was designed correctly it would be impossible to shut it incorrectly. In the only case where NTSB took their judgement back and issued a revised one, they found the design defective, ordered it redesigned and retrofitted. Because a New Zealander whose son was a victim had the resources to have the broken door retrieved from the bottom of the Pacific and analyzed unarguably. Upon seeing the failure mode, a first-semester engineering student with any talent at all would say "that can't work". Yet with FAA approval and other substantive evidence of the problem, NTSB initially did the 'United Lawyers' thing to cover the industry in defiance of the truth.
Here's the Wiki on United 811. I don't know if it goes into the backstory of how NTSB was forced to recant, something that never happened before or since.
United Airlines Flight 811 - Wikipedia
By now these changed dryers should be on the market. Has anyone noticed them?
I disagree...
Indeed the followers of this site are largely experts and it is no surprise that your appliances (mine too) haven't given us much trouble as we know so much about maintaining them correctly.
However there are so many other causes of dryer fires that the average consumer wouldn't reasonably anticipate.
What about gas leaks, manufacturing defects, flammable items left in clothing accidentally, items that disintegrate in the dry cycle, items saturated with household liquids that didn't wash out entirely, heating-element sag, natural failure of old thermostats, and especially - incompetent repair?
Wrapping an appliance in cheesecloth is used to detect extension (the transfer of fire to items external to the appliance). Containment of fire to the appliance itself (and hopefully self-extinguishment) is important so this test is crucial. Losing a clothes dryer to fire is bad enough but setting fire to the room is worse when the appliance's cabinet fails.
I wouldn't agree that old dryer designs had no problems. Actually I think they are more problematic as unexpected failures occur as they exceed their expected lifespan. I am aware of multiple thermostat failures in the same dryer. Don't expect the high-limit to always save your butt.
Just my two cents of course. However I think all manufacturers need to be poked from time to time to keep heating appliances SAFER lest they cost-down a bit too far but just under the radar.
Indeed the followers of this site are largely experts and it is no surprise that your appliances (mine too) haven't given us much trouble as we know so much about maintaining them correctly.
However there are so many other causes of dryer fires that the average consumer wouldn't reasonably anticipate.
What about gas leaks, manufacturing defects, flammable items left in clothing accidentally, items that disintegrate in the dry cycle, items saturated with household liquids that didn't wash out entirely, heating-element sag, natural failure of old thermostats, and especially - incompetent repair?
Wrapping an appliance in cheesecloth is used to detect extension (the transfer of fire to items external to the appliance). Containment of fire to the appliance itself (and hopefully self-extinguishment) is important so this test is crucial. Losing a clothes dryer to fire is bad enough but setting fire to the room is worse when the appliance's cabinet fails.
I wouldn't agree that old dryer designs had no problems. Actually I think they are more problematic as unexpected failures occur as they exceed their expected lifespan. I am aware of multiple thermostat failures in the same dryer. Don't expect the high-limit to always save your butt.
Just my two cents of course. However I think all manufacturers need to be poked from time to time to keep heating appliances SAFER lest they cost-down a bit too far but just under the radar.
I suppose steam dryers could have an advantage here. If a fire in the drum is detected, they could turn on the water spray nozzle and extinguish it that way.
Steam dryer activating the water spray to extinguish a fire-This may not be good-electricity and water don't mix-could make a situation worse!Again this dryer fire thing is just going too far-In my househood-NEVER have had a dryer fire.Other household I know haven't either.Guess the cheesecloth thing means you shouldn't drape your dryer in flammable material-this is common sense-most people won't do that.Remember those washer and dryer covers in mail order catalogs a while back-would not use!!Didn't someone here show a dryer fire extinguisher device?That may be a better thing for a dryer fire then the machine spraying water on it.
I know of two households that had dryer fires. The house was seriously damaged in one case.
I've seen a YT video from a commercial company that have dryers that would do just that: douse the burning clothes with a intense mist of water sprayed right into the drum.
What I find interesting about US dryers is that like 99% of them are vented, yet the lint screens are sometimes just made out of a coarse metal mesh (think Whirpool with lint screen on top). European dryers have sreens made from very fine nylon (?). Wouldn't it make sense to add finer filters to US dryers or would that reduce their strong airflow too much?
Alex
What I find interesting about US dryers is that like 99% of them are vented, yet the lint screens are sometimes just made out of a coarse metal mesh (think Whirpool with lint screen on top). European dryers have sreens made from very fine nylon (?). Wouldn't it make sense to add finer filters to US dryers or would that reduce their strong airflow too much?
Alex
Wash-in discussion options
To spill the beans a bit, I am a certified fire investigator including specialized training on clothes dryer fires. I am not employed by any manufacturer. Maybe at a wash-in we can kick around dryer safety particularly vintage dryers. You bring what you know to the table and I'll bring mine... Could make for an interesting transfer of knowledge.
To spill the beans a bit, I am a certified fire investigator including specialized training on clothes dryer fires. I am not employed by any manufacturer. Maybe at a wash-in we can kick around dryer safety particularly vintage dryers. You bring what you know to the table and I'll bring mine... Could make for an interesting transfer of knowledge.
lightedcontrols
Well-known member
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- Sep 7, 2004
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Is a UL label all that important?
Back in the day the UL label meant something to the consumer. Nowadays however, it really doesn't mean much. Do you see a UL label on your phone charger? .... electric toothbrush? Miele dishwasher? Samsung fridge? Dell computer? Most likely not. The government has "stepped" in on your behalf. (for what it's worth) Mark
Back in the day the UL label meant something to the consumer. Nowadays however, it really doesn't mean much. Do you see a UL label on your phone charger? .... electric toothbrush? Miele dishwasher? Samsung fridge? Dell computer? Most likely not. The government has "stepped" in on your behalf. (for what it's worth) Mark
UL isn't mandatory
UL listing isn't mandatory however there are other certification laboratories. UL is likely the best known.
It still means something to me as I know the device will have been reviewed. However for many people - and probably the younger generation - they don't know what UL is or its value IMHO.
I used to see UL commercials, maybe it's time they toot their horn again.
UL listing isn't mandatory however there are other certification laboratories. UL is likely the best known.
It still means something to me as I know the device will have been reviewed. However for many people - and probably the younger generation - they don't know what UL is or its value IMHO.
I used to see UL commercials, maybe it's time they toot their horn again.
Dryer Fire Safety
I was really disappointed in many of the responses to this interesting posting By Glen. This test makes a lot of sense and for many of you 2nd guessing and making fun of something that you do not understand makes this site not look serious about appliances.
Clothing can catch fire just sitting in a clothes dryer or even sitting in a laundry basket.
These safety features have already gone into effect and no one has been harmed by them, in fact since dryers started adding safety thermal fuses in the early 80s and several other safety improvements many lives and THOUSANDS of homes have been saved from dryer fires.
Dryer fires Do Not start in duct work, they can be spread through the duct work. Water is an excellent way to put out a fire even an electrical fire, Water is a VERY poor conductor of electricity.
Many of the collectors on this site would be the first ones to complain if companies started to make all plastic Clothes Dryers, sensible standards like these give the manufacturers a great incentive to keep building STEEL dryers.
John L.
I was really disappointed in many of the responses to this interesting posting By Glen. This test makes a lot of sense and for many of you 2nd guessing and making fun of something that you do not understand makes this site not look serious about appliances.
Clothing can catch fire just sitting in a clothes dryer or even sitting in a laundry basket.
These safety features have already gone into effect and no one has been harmed by them, in fact since dryers started adding safety thermal fuses in the early 80s and several other safety improvements many lives and THOUSANDS of homes have been saved from dryer fires.
Dryer fires Do Not start in duct work, they can be spread through the duct work. Water is an excellent way to put out a fire even an electrical fire, Water is a VERY poor conductor of electricity.
Many of the collectors on this site would be the first ones to complain if companies started to make all plastic Clothes Dryers, sensible standards like these give the manufacturers a great incentive to keep building STEEL dryers.
John L.
