Ran across this a few mins ago, new UL safety standards supposedly to take effect 3/20/2013. The article is dated Dec 2009.
http://www.appliancemagazine.com/ae/editorial.php?article=2328&zone=215&first=1
Dryer Fire Safety
- Thread starter DADoES
- Start date
Ran across this a few mins ago, new UL safety standards supposedly to take effect 3/20/2013. The article is dated Dec 2009.
http://www.appliancemagazine.com/ae/editorial.php?article=2328&zone=215&first=1
georgect
Well-known member
but is it obtainable, at what cost
I'm sure these standards can be met but at what cost (passed on to us)?
Used to be dryers were the ceaper of the two laundry machines you could buy but now they match washer prices.
With this new UL update I suspect dryer prices my become higher than their washer counter part.
Will some manufactures just drop dryer line models.
I see a come back to the good old close line (which isn't a bad thing).
I'm sure these standards can be met but at what cost (passed on to us)?
Used to be dryers were the ceaper of the two laundry machines you could buy but now they match washer prices.
With this new UL update I suspect dryer prices my become higher than their washer counter part.
Will some manufactures just drop dryer line models.
I see a come back to the good old close line (which isn't a bad thing).
Expect old dryers from swap shops to be a "hot" commodity.These rules are too strigent to be practical.The dryers would be too costly to build and to buy.Who wraps their dryer in cheescloth while using it?
I don't understand ...
... the point of these new stringent codes.
Millions of Americans for generations have used the more "dangerous" design with no problem.
I'm tired of the government trying to protect us from the most stupid among us. If you're going to abuse your dryer and cause a fire, I say -- BURN BABY BURN!!!
It's called social Darwinism.
... the point of these new stringent codes.
Millions of Americans for generations have used the more "dangerous" design with no problem.
I'm tired of the government trying to protect us from the most stupid among us. If you're going to abuse your dryer and cause a fire, I say -- BURN BABY BURN!!!
It's called social Darwinism.
arbilab
Well-known member
Oy. I've been running dryers since 1954 and never got so much as a blister from one. Blister temp is prolonged exposure above 130F. What fabric combusts at 130F? NONE. Virtually NOTHING combusts at 130F. Not even gasoline!
Or 165F, the temperature where a turkey is done and the average dryer temperature. Happy thanksgiving.
Or 185F, the highest 'normal' dryer temp. Or 210F, where almost all overtemp thermos shut down.
This is a bunch of impotent bureaucrats trying to make themselves look like they're doing something.
Or 165F, the temperature where a turkey is done and the average dryer temperature. Happy thanksgiving.
Or 185F, the highest 'normal' dryer temp. Or 210F, where almost all overtemp thermos shut down.
This is a bunch of impotent bureaucrats trying to make themselves look like they're doing something.
Yes,as pointed out the FEW dryer fires that occur are from someone ABUSING their dryer.Now,are we going to have a bunch of silly regulations for dryers to "prevent" this?Dryers causing fires on their own are few and far between-I think those "Bureocrats" have dryer fires in their brains!
This is so much bull. Many dryer fires happen in the exhaust ductwork, outside of the cabinet. Older dryers often included belt switches that cut off the heat/power if a belt broke. They could go back to those and eliminate the situations causing "static" fires. Older Hamiltons had a fusible metal link safety thermostat that could not be reset but had to be replaced, once it melted, to restore the dryer to service so if there was a problem, it was fixed before a fire could start. It was usually people not cleaning the secondary screen in the Hamiliton's lint collector that caused the overheating. Maytag gas HOH dryers could set the felt seals at the front of the drum on fire, but that was an unusual event. If people throw lint behind the dryer where it ignites outside the dryer cabinet, how is all of this going to help? If people run dryers beyond the point where the rollers, seals or other drum suppport parts should be replaced, they are going to have lint and possibly small items escaping the drum and falling into the area where they could be ignited. Building anything that is failsafe for the criminally stupid is possible, but is it necessary?
UL standards are set by a group including manufacturers, the CPSC (government), and insurance companies. The reality in the US today is that if a fire burns down your house and it started in a brand x dryer the maker of brand x will be named in a lawsuit. The manufacturers all know this. I would guess by now that they have all been sued. A one in a hundred million event will happen multiple times per year. When a failure mode is noticed not addressing it opens brand x to bigger awards. These type of standards let the manufacturers prove their are products remain safe in crazy circumstances. Most users will never need these safety features but the legal system will cause their Development and inclusion. The UL standards make sure all manufactures have to have the same features and similar part costs. This probably hurts small manufacturers more than large ones. For the higher costs the industry keeps the products used viewed as safe. If the product is viewed as unsafe the whole market will shrink, not just the market for brand y products.
Given the discussion of redesign it is likely that there are a large number of machines on the market which already meet these requirements.
Given the discussion of redesign it is likely that there are a large number of machines on the market which already meet these requirements.
arbilab
Well-known member
Umm, 'UL' stands for United Lawyers. That is, if mfr meets their criteria it becomes very difficult to sue mfr successfully. Mfrs are much less interested in product integrity than in the integrity of their legal defenses.
A good product sells X many, as only a few consumers can even recognize a good product. A good LAWSUIT on the other hand, negates the profits of many good products for the sake of one person who managed to misuse theirs destructively.
Yes, I know that paragraph is an exaggerated simplification. Example, Boeing 747 was a good product but the cargo door latch design was defective and killed a handful of people (out of millions it did NOT kill) through absolutely no fault of their own. But the FAA had certified it airworthy and the NTSB blamed the cargo loader for shutting it incorrectly.
Well wait a tick. If it was designed correctly it would be impossible to shut it incorrectly. In the only case where NTSB took their judgement back and issued a revised one, they found the design defective, ordered it redesigned and retrofitted. Because a New Zealander whose son was a victim had the resources to have the broken door retrieved from the bottom of the Pacific and analyzed unarguably. Upon seeing the failure mode, a first-semester engineering student with any talent at all would say "that can't work". Yet with FAA approval and other substantive evidence of the problem, NTSB initially did the 'United Lawyers' thing to cover the industry in defiance of the truth.
Here's the Wiki on United 811. I don't know if it goes into the backstory of how NTSB was forced to recant, something that never happened before or since.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811
A good product sells X many, as only a few consumers can even recognize a good product. A good LAWSUIT on the other hand, negates the profits of many good products for the sake of one person who managed to misuse theirs destructively.
Yes, I know that paragraph is an exaggerated simplification. Example, Boeing 747 was a good product but the cargo door latch design was defective and killed a handful of people (out of millions it did NOT kill) through absolutely no fault of their own. But the FAA had certified it airworthy and the NTSB blamed the cargo loader for shutting it incorrectly.
Well wait a tick. If it was designed correctly it would be impossible to shut it incorrectly. In the only case where NTSB took their judgement back and issued a revised one, they found the design defective, ordered it redesigned and retrofitted. Because a New Zealander whose son was a victim had the resources to have the broken door retrieved from the bottom of the Pacific and analyzed unarguably. Upon seeing the failure mode, a first-semester engineering student with any talent at all would say "that can't work". Yet with FAA approval and other substantive evidence of the problem, NTSB initially did the 'United Lawyers' thing to cover the industry in defiance of the truth.
Here's the Wiki on United 811. I don't know if it goes into the backstory of how NTSB was forced to recant, something that never happened before or since.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811
By now these changed dryers should be on the market. Has anyone noticed them?
I disagree...
Indeed the followers of this site are largely experts and it is no surprise that your appliances (mine too) haven't given us much trouble as we know so much about maintaining them correctly.
However there are so many other causes of dryer fires that the average consumer wouldn't reasonably anticipate.
What about gas leaks, manufacturing defects, flammable items left in clothing accidentally, items that disintegrate in the dry cycle, items saturated with household liquids that didn't wash out entirely, heating-element sag, natural failure of old thermostats, and especially - incompetent repair?
Wrapping an appliance in cheesecloth is used to detect extension (the transfer of fire to items external to the appliance). Containment of fire to the appliance itself (and hopefully self-extinguishment) is important so this test is crucial. Losing a clothes dryer to fire is bad enough but setting fire to the room is worse when the appliance's cabinet fails.
I wouldn't agree that old dryer designs had no problems. Actually I think they are more problematic as unexpected failures occur as they exceed their expected lifespan. I am aware of multiple thermostat failures in the same dryer. Don't expect the high-limit to always save your butt.
Just my two cents of course. However I think all manufacturers need to be poked from time to time to keep heating appliances SAFER lest they cost-down a bit too far but just under the radar.
Indeed the followers of this site are largely experts and it is no surprise that your appliances (mine too) haven't given us much trouble as we know so much about maintaining them correctly.
However there are so many other causes of dryer fires that the average consumer wouldn't reasonably anticipate.
What about gas leaks, manufacturing defects, flammable items left in clothing accidentally, items that disintegrate in the dry cycle, items saturated with household liquids that didn't wash out entirely, heating-element sag, natural failure of old thermostats, and especially - incompetent repair?
Wrapping an appliance in cheesecloth is used to detect extension (the transfer of fire to items external to the appliance). Containment of fire to the appliance itself (and hopefully self-extinguishment) is important so this test is crucial. Losing a clothes dryer to fire is bad enough but setting fire to the room is worse when the appliance's cabinet fails.
I wouldn't agree that old dryer designs had no problems. Actually I think they are more problematic as unexpected failures occur as they exceed their expected lifespan. I am aware of multiple thermostat failures in the same dryer. Don't expect the high-limit to always save your butt.
Just my two cents of course. However I think all manufacturers need to be poked from time to time to keep heating appliances SAFER lest they cost-down a bit too far but just under the radar.
I suppose steam dryers could have an advantage here. If a fire in the drum is detected, they could turn on the water spray nozzle and extinguish it that way.
Steam dryer activating the water spray to extinguish a fire-This may not be good-electricity and water don't mix-could make a situation worse!Again this dryer fire thing is just going too far-In my househood-NEVER have had a dryer fire.Other household I know haven't either.Guess the cheesecloth thing means you shouldn't drape your dryer in flammable material-this is common sense-most people won't do that.Remember those washer and dryer covers in mail order catalogs a while back-would not use!!Didn't someone here show a dryer fire extinguisher device?That may be a better thing for a dryer fire then the machine spraying water on it.
I know of two households that had dryer fires. The house was seriously damaged in one case.
I've seen a YT video from a commercial company that have dryers that would do just that: douse the burning clothes with a intense mist of water sprayed right into the drum.
What I find interesting about US dryers is that like 99% of them are vented, yet the lint screens are sometimes just made out of a coarse metal mesh (think Whirpool with lint screen on top). European dryers have sreens made from very fine nylon (?). Wouldn't it make sense to add finer filters to US dryers or would that reduce their strong airflow too much?
Alex
What I find interesting about US dryers is that like 99% of them are vented, yet the lint screens are sometimes just made out of a coarse metal mesh (think Whirpool with lint screen on top). European dryers have sreens made from very fine nylon (?). Wouldn't it make sense to add finer filters to US dryers or would that reduce their strong airflow too much?
Alex
Wash-in discussion options
To spill the beans a bit, I am a certified fire investigator including specialized training on clothes dryer fires. I am not employed by any manufacturer. Maybe at a wash-in we can kick around dryer safety particularly vintage dryers. You bring what you know to the table and I'll bring mine... Could make for an interesting transfer of knowledge.
To spill the beans a bit, I am a certified fire investigator including specialized training on clothes dryer fires. I am not employed by any manufacturer. Maybe at a wash-in we can kick around dryer safety particularly vintage dryers. You bring what you know to the table and I'll bring mine... Could make for an interesting transfer of knowledge.
lightedcontrols
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2004
- Messages
- 1,549
Is a UL label all that important?
Back in the day the UL label meant something to the consumer. Nowadays however, it really doesn't mean much. Do you see a UL label on your phone charger? .... electric toothbrush? Miele dishwasher? Samsung fridge? Dell computer? Most likely not. The government has "stepped" in on your behalf. (for what it's worth) Mark
Back in the day the UL label meant something to the consumer. Nowadays however, it really doesn't mean much. Do you see a UL label on your phone charger? .... electric toothbrush? Miele dishwasher? Samsung fridge? Dell computer? Most likely not. The government has "stepped" in on your behalf. (for what it's worth) Mark
UL isn't mandatory
UL listing isn't mandatory however there are other certification laboratories. UL is likely the best known.
It still means something to me as I know the device will have been reviewed. However for many people - and probably the younger generation - they don't know what UL is or its value IMHO.
I used to see UL commercials, maybe it's time they toot their horn again.
UL listing isn't mandatory however there are other certification laboratories. UL is likely the best known.
It still means something to me as I know the device will have been reviewed. However for many people - and probably the younger generation - they don't know what UL is or its value IMHO.
I used to see UL commercials, maybe it's time they toot their horn again.
Dryer Fire Safety
I was really disappointed in many of the responses to this interesting posting By Glen. This test makes a lot of sense and for many of you 2nd guessing and making fun of something that you do not understand makes this site not look serious about appliances.
Clothing can catch fire just sitting in a clothes dryer or even sitting in a laundry basket.
These safety features have already gone into effect and no one has been harmed by them, in fact since dryers started adding safety thermal fuses in the early 80s and several other safety improvements many lives and THOUSANDS of homes have been saved from dryer fires.
Dryer fires Do Not start in duct work, they can be spread through the duct work. Water is an excellent way to put out a fire even an electrical fire, Water is a VERY poor conductor of electricity.
Many of the collectors on this site would be the first ones to complain if companies started to make all plastic Clothes Dryers, sensible standards like these give the manufacturers a great incentive to keep building STEEL dryers.
John L.
I was really disappointed in many of the responses to this interesting posting By Glen. This test makes a lot of sense and for many of you 2nd guessing and making fun of something that you do not understand makes this site not look serious about appliances.
Clothing can catch fire just sitting in a clothes dryer or even sitting in a laundry basket.
These safety features have already gone into effect and no one has been harmed by them, in fact since dryers started adding safety thermal fuses in the early 80s and several other safety improvements many lives and THOUSANDS of homes have been saved from dryer fires.
Dryer fires Do Not start in duct work, they can be spread through the duct work. Water is an excellent way to put out a fire even an electrical fire, Water is a VERY poor conductor of electricity.
Many of the collectors on this site would be the first ones to complain if companies started to make all plastic Clothes Dryers, sensible standards like these give the manufacturers a great incentive to keep building STEEL dryers.
John L.
easyspindry
Well-known member
Sometime ago . . .
. . . my salesman told me that F&P were going to discontinue the top load dryer because they would not be able to comply with the new fire rules.
Jerry Gay
. . . my salesman told me that F&P were going to discontinue the top load dryer because they would not be able to comply with the new fire rules.
Jerry Gay
F&P Top Load Dryers
See something good may have already come out of the new regulations, LOL. F&P [mostly plastic] dryers were a disaster waiting to happen, they were a total pile of junk, we have several customers with them although I have seen more on the junk pile than in homes.
See something good may have already come out of the new regulations, LOL. F&P [mostly plastic] dryers were a disaster waiting to happen, they were a total pile of junk, we have several customers with them although I have seen more on the junk pile than in homes.
Found it
Built-In Sprinklers
What a great idea and I always felt that so-called steam dryers were a silly idea, maybe if manufactures incorporate this technology into home models the insurance will start giving you a credit on your insurance premium for steam dryers.
I our area homes [ even single family ] have been required to have sprinkler systems for over 20 years and every laundry room has a sprinkler head over the washer and dryer although a built-in system would work faster and cause less mess and damage.
I LOVE technology and how it has helped us lead so much safer and productive lives.
John L.
What a great idea and I always felt that so-called steam dryers were a silly idea, maybe if manufactures incorporate this technology into home models the insurance will start giving you a credit on your insurance premium for steam dryers.
I our area homes [ even single family ] have been required to have sprinkler systems for over 20 years and every laundry room has a sprinkler head over the washer and dryer although a built-in system would work faster and cause less mess and damage.
I LOVE technology and how it has helped us lead so much safer and productive lives.
John L.
I think this is a great idea.
Maybe steam drying is a bit of a gimmick, but if this has the potential of saving lives and preventing property damage, then I'm all for it.
I would certainly consider spending a bit extra on a dryer if it had this feature.
Maybe steam drying is a bit of a gimmick, but if this has the potential of saving lives and preventing property damage, then I'm all for it.
I would certainly consider spending a bit extra on a dryer if it had this feature.
Water conductance----Tap water IS a good conductor of electricy-You CANNOT put tap water into the cooling systems of our transmitters!!!It will trip off right away.To make water NON CONDUCTIVE you must DISTILL it and Doinize it.Then it is non conductive.We have a special ohmmeter that measures water condtance-tape water is around several Kohm-enough to cause problems or electrocution.A danger exists here-if the water STAYS in the transmitter system or the distilled water storage tank-no problem.But once its released and touches the floor-your body esp-its conductive.The salt on your body makes it even more so.And of course tap water SHOULD NOT be used to put out electrical fires unless all power is disconnected.The equipment has to be thouroughly dried out before energizing it again.And of course soot,ash,burned components has to be removed as well.We have both CO2 extingushers here(safe for electrical fires on energized equipment)and a fire hose--NOT safe unless power is removed.All transmitters do have emerg stop disconnects in case of fire or other emergency.The E-stop trips the main 4160V breaker to the transmitter.Not ALL power is removed-there is outlet power for the transmitter "tool and light" outlets and door switches.And 120VDC "House" battery power can appear in some places.
kb0nes
Well-known member
Tap water IS a good conductor of electricy
Rex,
Define "Good conductor", compared to a piece of Teflon water is a good conductor compared to any metal its VERY bad.
I just stuck the probes of my Fluke DMM into some fresh drawn tap water here at at ~1" spacing I got about 2Meg Ohm between them. I certainly wouldn't consider that to be a "good" conductor, but yes it does conduct.
The example of using water to cool a tube that has many kilovolts of plate voltage does require water that is non-ionized. But the point being made was that you can use water to put out a dryer fire as we are talking about very low voltage (by comparison). There is a big difference between standard household line voltage and 10Kv!
I wouldn't hesitate for a second to turn a hose on an electrically live dryer fire, but if it were the local power sub-station, I'd probably run away!
Rex,
Define "Good conductor", compared to a piece of Teflon water is a good conductor compared to any metal its VERY bad.
I just stuck the probes of my Fluke DMM into some fresh drawn tap water here at at ~1" spacing I got about 2Meg Ohm between them. I certainly wouldn't consider that to be a "good" conductor, but yes it does conduct.
The example of using water to cool a tube that has many kilovolts of plate voltage does require water that is non-ionized. But the point being made was that you can use water to put out a dryer fire as we are talking about very low voltage (by comparison). There is a big difference between standard household line voltage and 10Kv!
I wouldn't hesitate for a second to turn a hose on an electrically live dryer fire, but if it were the local power sub-station, I'd probably run away!
I still would not spray water onto a dryer that is on fire--if you could unplug it or throw off its breaker-then yes.I just want to be safe!Remember what I mentioned about water getting onto other surfaces or your body-the conductivity then changes drastically.One time when one of our transmitters was leaking and the floor was wet-used a bakelite rod to turn the HV in the rig off-then powered it down using the same rod.The show was moved to another Tx-leak was fixed.Guess your water has a higher resistence than ours-The water here is lower.I have a small CO2 extingusher at home-this would work on a dryer fire OK without having to disconnect the power.Even with 240-120V would not spray water onto or into the device.
arbilab
Well-known member
"I wouldn't hesitate for a second to turn a hose on an electrically live dryer fire"
Just don't hold a metal hosefront nozzle and stand on wet concrete in your bare feet at the same time. 'Your conductivity may vary'.
Around 2005, my power went out accompanied by a loud distant explosion. I drove to the neighborhood substation where a 138kV transformer was merrily ablaze. The fire department was there but they were NOT hosing it down.
Credit to Austin electric, despite this major distribution disruption (the transformer was destroyed) they had the lights back on in a half hour. How? Manually operated crossover switches every several blocks allow the 7.2kV feed to be connected to an alternate substation. Not all utilities are so diligently prepared. The first month I was in DFW the power was out longer than it had been CUMULATIVELY in Austin over 19 years. Not a tornado, not an ice storm, most 3-hour outages occurred in clear calm weather. See 'management, competence thereof'.
Just don't hold a metal hosefront nozzle and stand on wet concrete in your bare feet at the same time. 'Your conductivity may vary'.
Around 2005, my power went out accompanied by a loud distant explosion. I drove to the neighborhood substation where a 138kV transformer was merrily ablaze. The fire department was there but they were NOT hosing it down.
Credit to Austin electric, despite this major distribution disruption (the transformer was destroyed) they had the lights back on in a half hour. How? Manually operated crossover switches every several blocks allow the 7.2kV feed to be connected to an alternate substation. Not all utilities are so diligently prepared. The first month I was in DFW the power was out longer than it had been CUMULATIVELY in Austin over 19 years. Not a tornado, not an ice storm, most 3-hour outages occurred in clear calm weather. See 'management, competence thereof'.
Sort of vaguely remember a saying among power company linemen and firemen-The firemen say-"we stay away from their WIRES until they shut off the power"The linemen say-"we stay away from THEIR fires!"Remember a substation explosion on YouTube several years back-involved a substation near Maimi,Fla-The substation transformer and other equipment was on fire and power still on-"the arc welder from HELL"Both waited until the fuses finally blew and killed the power-and the firemen could not spray water on the blaze becuase of the flaming,pouring transformer oil-only thing they could do was wait for the oil to burn-then hose the remains with protective barriers put in place.At my worksite-our transformers are fed with 115Kv.Just hope a fire never happens there-the "arc welder from hell!"Yes,when spraying water onto an electrical fire-always the danger of the water conducting power back to the person holding the hose!
Putting Out Dryer Fires
All this discussion of water being applied to hi-voltage [ 1000 volts or more ] fires has nothing to due with dryer fires, as my brother Phil says there would be no problem taking the garden hose to a flaming clothes dryer [ I would even do this in bare or soaking wet feet ] The greatest voltage potential in an electric dyer is just 120 volts to ground. Now granted I am not going to wrestle the dryer away from the wall while standing in water, but I am certainly not going to waste valuable time putting out the fire running around looking for a circuit breaker or trying to unplug it if I have a hose available.
I think that the fire safety experts that REQUIRE a water sprinkler head over EVERY dryer installation in new housing, without requiring an electrical shut-off before the sprinkler activates know a little more than most of us.
John L.
All this discussion of water being applied to hi-voltage [ 1000 volts or more ] fires has nothing to due with dryer fires, as my brother Phil says there would be no problem taking the garden hose to a flaming clothes dryer [ I would even do this in bare or soaking wet feet ] The greatest voltage potential in an electric dyer is just 120 volts to ground. Now granted I am not going to wrestle the dryer away from the wall while standing in water, but I am certainly not going to waste valuable time putting out the fire running around looking for a circuit breaker or trying to unplug it if I have a hose available.
I think that the fire safety experts that REQUIRE a water sprinkler head over EVERY dryer installation in new housing, without requiring an electrical shut-off before the sprinkler activates know a little more than most of us.
John L.
