lasvegasrox
Well-known member
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- Aug 3, 2007
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lets say i wanted to buy a washer from the uk and bring it back to america...how would i do that or would it be possible
eurr outlets
- Thread starter lasvegasrox
- Start date
Help Support :
possible, but a few things to know
How you hook it up depends on the age and nature of the washer.
The plumbing is no problem, Europeans, the UK and the US all use the same plumbing standards.
The electrical hook up is either going to be very easy or quite a problem to solve.
If the machine is 100% electrical and mechanical with no solid state electronics (no logic circuitry at all) then it probably can be hooked up to work with US 240V,Split Phase AC (the stuff you power your stove or dryer with). You will need to have it done by someone who knows what they are doing so there are no safety problems, but basically it is a very simple hook up.
If, however, the machine has solid-state logic (whether from the late 1970's or 2007), you will probably have to get some sort of converter in order to have it work correctly and not lose an expensive circuit.
The biggest cost in these converters is determined by whether they have to power heating elements or not. If you can do without them, that will drop the power needs from over 2,000Watts (could be over 3,500!) down below 1,000 watts.
Some vintage European machines can actually be set to run at 120V AC Single Phase. So give that a look at, too. Again, tho' - even a typical 13Amp/240V UK washer might be well over the limits of even a single branch 20Amp 120V US circuit unless the heating elements were downrated (lots of Philips machines and Miele were designed to make that possible. Some Hoover machines were also sold in the North American market so parts can probably be found.)
If you list the machine, I am sure someone here can tell you very quickly what needs doing to make it work happily.
Vintage UK machines were pretty cool.
How you hook it up depends on the age and nature of the washer.
The plumbing is no problem, Europeans, the UK and the US all use the same plumbing standards.
The electrical hook up is either going to be very easy or quite a problem to solve.
If the machine is 100% electrical and mechanical with no solid state electronics (no logic circuitry at all) then it probably can be hooked up to work with US 240V,Split Phase AC (the stuff you power your stove or dryer with). You will need to have it done by someone who knows what they are doing so there are no safety problems, but basically it is a very simple hook up.
If, however, the machine has solid-state logic (whether from the late 1970's or 2007), you will probably have to get some sort of converter in order to have it work correctly and not lose an expensive circuit.
The biggest cost in these converters is determined by whether they have to power heating elements or not. If you can do without them, that will drop the power needs from over 2,000Watts (could be over 3,500!) down below 1,000 watts.
Some vintage European machines can actually be set to run at 120V AC Single Phase. So give that a look at, too. Again, tho' - even a typical 13Amp/240V UK washer might be well over the limits of even a single branch 20Amp 120V US circuit unless the heating elements were downrated (lots of Philips machines and Miele were designed to make that possible. Some Hoover machines were also sold in the North American market so parts can probably be found.)
If you list the machine, I am sure someone here can tell you very quickly what needs doing to make it work happily.
Vintage UK machines were pretty cool.
I had a customer that was actually using a Miele canister vacuum with the electronic speed controll board that hey had bought while living on South Africa. They just put in 240V window A/C outlets and modified some kinf od extention cord so the vacuum can be plugged into one end, and the other ends fits the outlets. It was running fine for them, but the vacuums use pretty simple boards compared to some appliances.
Also to help with the power issue
Australian Machines are a maximum of 10amps or 2400watts compared to the 13amps 3200watts of the UK, so if using a transformer they'll create less load.
Australian Machines are a maximum of 10amps or 2400watts compared to the 13amps 3200watts of the UK, so if using a transformer they'll create less load.
Right, Nathan
After German unification, many German market machines were downrated from 16A @ 230V Single Phase AC to 10A, etc.
I guess we really should only discuss things in watts as the amps lead to confusion. Of course, the usual disclaimer, this formula is approximate and your milage may vary:
Amps * Volts = Watts.
A 230V European washer rated at 16 amps draws either
3680 watts in Europe, the UK and the US or
30.1 Amps in the US at 120V.
This is just approximate, because a machine starting up can draw lots more current or one running without heating elements might be very happy on a standard US outlet with just a simple transformer...But close enough that you can see why there is a problem to solve.
(Again, and please, let's not get into inductive, capacitive, PFC and all the other aspects, ok?. It is fun for some folks, but bores the rest of us to tears and really makes me even hesitate to ever reply or interact on any UK threads.)
After German unification, many German market machines were downrated from 16A @ 230V Single Phase AC to 10A, etc.
I guess we really should only discuss things in watts as the amps lead to confusion. Of course, the usual disclaimer, this formula is approximate and your milage may vary:
Amps * Volts = Watts.
A 230V European washer rated at 16 amps draws either
3680 watts in Europe, the UK and the US or
30.1 Amps in the US at 120V.
This is just approximate, because a machine starting up can draw lots more current or one running without heating elements might be very happy on a standard US outlet with just a simple transformer...But close enough that you can see why there is a problem to solve.
(Again, and please, let's not get into inductive, capacitive, PFC and all the other aspects, ok?. It is fun for some folks, but bores the rest of us to tears and really makes me even hesitate to ever reply or interact on any UK threads.)
Ireland
We changed TO UK 13A plugs and sockets in the 1960s/70s and they only became the offical standard in 1987! although, by then they were the de facto standard.
However, until the 1990s there were plenty of appliances on sale here with Schuko plugs that were rated 16A, particularly tumble dryers.
As, in general, they were not portable appliances, and Irish socket outlets are fed (as in Germany/France etc) by either 16A or 20A radial circuits (not like the UK where they're on 32A rings) it was perfectly safe to simply have a special outlet installed for the dryer / washer / whatever.
So, in many cases they would be connected via a Schuko outlet or, a BS546 (15A officially in the UK, but they've pins the size of your finger! and are rated 16A elsewhere) In some cases they were hard-wired to a 16A circuit via an isolator switch.
But, in some older homes you'll still find that all the sockets are BS1363 (UK style) and then you may find round pin BS546 or even schuko behind the washing machine, dryer and dishwasher!!
We also have always used 220V 50Hz single phase and 380V 50Hz three phase, the same as the rest of Europe, not the UK.
Now it's all officialy 230V 50Hz and 400V 50Hz and appliances can only be sold with UK-style plugs and are rated 13A max.
It was great having access to 16A dryers !!
We changed TO UK 13A plugs and sockets in the 1960s/70s and they only became the offical standard in 1987! although, by then they were the de facto standard.
However, until the 1990s there were plenty of appliances on sale here with Schuko plugs that were rated 16A, particularly tumble dryers.
As, in general, they were not portable appliances, and Irish socket outlets are fed (as in Germany/France etc) by either 16A or 20A radial circuits (not like the UK where they're on 32A rings) it was perfectly safe to simply have a special outlet installed for the dryer / washer / whatever.
So, in many cases they would be connected via a Schuko outlet or, a BS546 (15A officially in the UK, but they've pins the size of your finger! and are rated 16A elsewhere) In some cases they were hard-wired to a 16A circuit via an isolator switch.
But, in some older homes you'll still find that all the sockets are BS1363 (UK style) and then you may find round pin BS546 or even schuko behind the washing machine, dryer and dishwasher!!
We also have always used 220V 50Hz single phase and 380V 50Hz three phase, the same as the rest of Europe, not the UK.
Now it's all officialy 230V 50Hz and 400V 50Hz and appliances can only be sold with UK-style plugs and are rated 13A max.
It was great having access to 16A dryers !!
My love life if boring me to tears- Barbara Streisand song.
MrX:
I beleive ring-circuits as found in the UK are relatively unknown outside the UK.
Let me briefly describe it and then we can all gloss-over it instead of getting too techinical!
Take a regular circuit of 16a. start at the circuit breaker or fuse box (uk=> consumer unit) go around the house. come back TO THE SAME circuit breaker and fuse forming a "RING"
16a wire gets a 32a fuse. Most outlets (UK=> power-point) are fed from BOTH sides of the ring effectively doubling the wires ability to transmit current (AMPERAGE).
Due to these unique ring circuits, UK plugs are generally fused. [Every flex cord plug-in device is fused). This explains why tplugs there tend to be very large compared to Schucko (euro) plugs or US flat-prong plugs.
Of course there are "regular" radial runs (power source to appliance) without a ring on it. And just when you thought it was safe to swim again, radial runs are allowed off of ring circuits OY VEY!
MrX:
I beleive ring-circuits as found in the UK are relatively unknown outside the UK.
Let me briefly describe it and then we can all gloss-over it instead of getting too techinical!
Take a regular circuit of 16a. start at the circuit breaker or fuse box (uk=> consumer unit) go around the house. come back TO THE SAME circuit breaker and fuse forming a "RING"
16a wire gets a 32a fuse. Most outlets (UK=> power-point) are fed from BOTH sides of the ring effectively doubling the wires ability to transmit current (AMPERAGE).
Due to these unique ring circuits, UK plugs are generally fused. [Every flex cord plug-in device is fused). This explains why tplugs there tend to be very large compared to Schucko (euro) plugs or US flat-prong plugs.
Of course there are "regular" radial runs (power source to appliance) without a ring on it. And just when you thought it was safe to swim again, radial runs are allowed off of ring circuits OY VEY!
~They just put in 240V window A/C outlets.
WOW someone REALLY liked that vacuum cleaner! That is an expensive propostion, if there were no A/C lines already there!
WOW someone REALLY liked that vacuum cleaner! That is an expensive propostion, if there were no A/C lines already there!
I wonder
if that would even be possible with the lower voltage used in North America. Posible, of course, but practical? Most folks from the 'States are shocked the first time they see the diameter of wire used for 16Amp circuits here...
There is another nice thing to be said about many UK power points; they frequently have on/off switches.
Of course, from a Elktrosmog perspective, these ring jobs are not exactly ideal, in case your madness drifts in that direction.
if that would even be possible with the lower voltage used in North America. Posible, of course, but practical? Most folks from the 'States are shocked the first time they see the diameter of wire used for 16Amp circuits here...
There is another nice thing to be said about many UK power points; they frequently have on/off switches.
Of course, from a Elktrosmog perspective, these ring jobs are not exactly ideal, in case your madness drifts in that direction.
nah,
They probably used your approach without your paranoia, er, caution and now there are hot neutrals (for the anal-retentives, live groundeds) just a' poppin' and a' glowin'.
Saves on the heating bills, ya know...wall heat and all.
They probably used your approach without your paranoia, er, caution and now there are hot neutrals (for the anal-retentives, live groundeds) just a' poppin' and a' glowin'.
Saves on the heating bills, ya know...wall heat and all.
~Most folks from the 'States are shocked the first time they see the diameter of wire used for 16Amp circuits here...
I honestly thougght it was lamp cord when I saw some electrical work being done in a London hotel
It's half (+/-) the size/thickness of US 15a circuit wire....literally.
I honestly thougght it was lamp cord when I saw some electrical work being done in a London hotel
It's half (+/-) the size/thickness of US 15a circuit wire....literally.
~......and now there are hot neutrals.
It is my understanding that the two hots from the beginning and the end of the ring (remember both are on the same "phase")feed from one breaker/fuse and the two neutrals are still neutral!
It is my understanding that the two hots from the beginning and the end of the ring (remember both are on the same "phase")feed from one breaker/fuse and the two neutrals are still neutral!
But of course they are
I was refering to your (it was so clever, I assumed it was you) quick 220V fixer-upper back in the day to turn 120V outlets into 220V in NYC.
And the 'neutral' versus 'grounded' is just me poking fun at the anal-retentives among us and the silliness some of the NEC folks are trying to perpetuate by forcing us to distinguish live, grounded and grounding instead of 'neutral'...I don't remember a NEC with as many errors, bloopers and d-u-m, dumb ideas as the 2006...my favorite being it is forbidden to hold livestock on the ground while, at the same time it is forbidden to hold them on a concrete foundation...
I was refering to your (it was so clever, I assumed it was you) quick 220V fixer-upper back in the day to turn 120V outlets into 220V in NYC.
And the 'neutral' versus 'grounded' is just me poking fun at the anal-retentives among us and the silliness some of the NEC folks are trying to perpetuate by forcing us to distinguish live, grounded and grounding instead of 'neutral'...I don't remember a NEC with as many errors, bloopers and d-u-m, dumb ideas as the 2006...my favorite being it is forbidden to hold livestock on the ground while, at the same time it is forbidden to hold them on a concrete foundation...
seamusuk
Well-known member
Ring mains
Hey Toggle!
The two live wires do indeed go back tho the same terminal on the fuse/circuit breaker(fuses are normally 30a and breakers are normally 32a). There is a single neutral connection block in the consumer unit/fusebox and also a single earth/ground block.
Ring mains are either wired in 6mm or 10mm cable(a vacuum cord is normally either 0.75 or 1.00mm by comparison).
The maximum load allowed on a ring is 7.2kw @ 240v- a 13a outlet can handle 3.2kw@ 240v.
Cheers
Seamus
Hey Toggle!
The two live wires do indeed go back tho the same terminal on the fuse/circuit breaker(fuses are normally 30a and breakers are normally 32a). There is a single neutral connection block in the consumer unit/fusebox and also a single earth/ground block.
Ring mains are either wired in 6mm or 10mm cable(a vacuum cord is normally either 0.75 or 1.00mm by comparison).
The maximum load allowed on a ring is 7.2kw @ 240v- a 13a outlet can handle 3.2kw@ 240v.
Cheers
Seamus
seamusuk
Well-known member
Forgot to say...
Radial extensions (Spurs)
These are indeed allowed with 2 conditions
1. You cant have more spurs than there are sockets on the ring.
2. Each spur can only have one socket/fixed appliance attached to it i.e you cant run a spur off a spur!
Seamus
Radial extensions (Spurs)
These are indeed allowed with 2 conditions
1. You cant have more spurs than there are sockets on the ring.
2. Each spur can only have one socket/fixed appliance attached to it i.e you cant run a spur off a spur!
Seamus
Toggleswitch:
Don't forget that it's twice the voltage, so a typical European circuit can carry twice as much power over the same diameter of cable.
Also, you could have been looking at 6A or 10A lighting circuits which are not a huge diameter.
I had a look at some electrical safety stats and in general North western European countries have exceptionally low electrical accident rates (lower than the US). Electrical fires are also less common in Europe - This may be due to the choice of 230V giving a typical power circuit more 'ummph'. Where as in the US, it's more likely to have a 15A outlet pushed to its max.
What freaks European electricans and engineers out in the US is the use of zip cord! We banned it in the 1960s as it's considered to be extremely unsafe as it's only single insulated.
They're different systems, but if used correctly they're both pretty safe.
What I worry about is DIY hack jobs, either side of the atlantic!
Don't forget that it's twice the voltage, so a typical European circuit can carry twice as much power over the same diameter of cable.
Also, you could have been looking at 6A or 10A lighting circuits which are not a huge diameter.
I had a look at some electrical safety stats and in general North western European countries have exceptionally low electrical accident rates (lower than the US). Electrical fires are also less common in Europe - This may be due to the choice of 230V giving a typical power circuit more 'ummph'. Where as in the US, it's more likely to have a 15A outlet pushed to its max.
What freaks European electricans and engineers out in the US is the use of zip cord! We banned it in the 1960s as it's considered to be extremely unsafe as it's only single insulated.
They're different systems, but if used correctly they're both pretty safe.
What I worry about is DIY hack jobs, either side of the atlantic!
~What I worry about is DIY hack jobs, either side of the atlantic!
Excellent points, all ot them!
What do you mean by "zip cord" and where is it stll used within the US?
My ethnic group imports form Europe small electric voitve lights that have been converted for use on 110v. The wire is extremely thin based on what we are used to!
Excellent points, all ot them!
What do you mean by "zip cord" and where is it stll used within the US?
My ethnic group imports form Europe small electric voitve lights that have been converted for use on 110v. The wire is extremely thin based on what we are used to!
Toggles,
Zip-Cord is an outdated (sorry mrx) term for the flat, single insulated cable properly termed "twin feeder cable".
Here in Europe, it is still seen in older appliances and stuff from China 'pretending' to be CE conform.
Go to any Walmart and you can find it in 14-18AWG (arg!) sizes. But it will always have pretty little caps on the end to cover the un-used holes in the extension cord head so no accidents occur.
I do wish the folks in the Uk would stop comparing apples with oranges. I have spent too much time in the homes of my poorer British relations and way too much time with visiting nurses in the area around Manchester to put up with this 'we are so much better nonsense'. Yes, the current situation in the US has all of us upset. Yes, Americans are quite provencial. But a folk which returned Margaret Thatcher to power again and again should really be a bit more circumspect in their criticisms.
One never hears the native born Germans or Italians fire away at the US on this site...in fact, I am the only continental European here who ever permits himself criticism. Maybe I shouldn't, but growing up in both cultures I, at least, know whereof I speak.
If one were to compare an upper-middle class domicile in the US with one in the UK, I daresay one would find similar dangers and means to counter them.
And let's not forget that all three cultures - German, UK and the US are doing their best to destroy the middle class and transfer all value addition to the Chinese while remaining dependent on a culture which genuinely hates us for our lifeblood, oil.
Zip-Cord is an outdated (sorry mrx) term for the flat, single insulated cable properly termed "twin feeder cable".
Here in Europe, it is still seen in older appliances and stuff from China 'pretending' to be CE conform.
Go to any Walmart and you can find it in 14-18AWG (arg!) sizes. But it will always have pretty little caps on the end to cover the un-used holes in the extension cord head so no accidents occur.
I do wish the folks in the Uk would stop comparing apples with oranges. I have spent too much time in the homes of my poorer British relations and way too much time with visiting nurses in the area around Manchester to put up with this 'we are so much better nonsense'. Yes, the current situation in the US has all of us upset. Yes, Americans are quite provencial. But a folk which returned Margaret Thatcher to power again and again should really be a bit more circumspect in their criticisms.
One never hears the native born Germans or Italians fire away at the US on this site...in fact, I am the only continental European here who ever permits himself criticism. Maybe I shouldn't, but growing up in both cultures I, at least, know whereof I speak.
If one were to compare an upper-middle class domicile in the US with one in the UK, I daresay one would find similar dangers and means to counter them.
And let's not forget that all three cultures - German, UK and the US are doing their best to destroy the middle class and transfer all value addition to the Chinese while remaining dependent on a culture which genuinely hates us for our lifeblood, oil.
I love everyone and Mr. X too!
Everyone calm down!
No offense taken at all! We all need to allow ourselves some lee-way(sp?) in our thoughts. I don't get offended by anyone. It's my policy. Depending on how read ("red"), everyone's posts can be misconsrued. Tone doesn't convey on the web!
If I have managed to offend anyone by this thread *SORRY*. I very carefully have tried not to judge anyone's system, only to compare relative to other ways so we can all learn.
ah zip-cord=> I'd call lamp cord.
Love and blessings to all. BREATHE!
Everyone calm down!
No offense taken at all! We all need to allow ourselves some lee-way(sp?) in our thoughts. I don't get offended by anyone. It's my policy. Depending on how read ("red"), everyone's posts can be misconsrued. Tone doesn't convey on the web!
If I have managed to offend anyone by this thread *SORRY*. I very carefully have tried not to judge anyone's system, only to compare relative to other ways so we can all learn.
ah zip-cord=> I'd call lamp cord.
Love and blessings to all. BREATHE!
