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I dont think I would have gone that route with the coal tar epoxy but still interesting just the same. I am wondering with the added weight and thickness that the rear drum clearances are going to be a hell of alot tighter. I hope I am wrong but it would suck that you went thru all this trouble only to have the drum not turn freely when you reassemble it.
I also agree with Tom about possible smells with a hot wash. I can only imagine what this stuff smells like. Does it dry scent free?
 
nmassman44:
What would you have done? What are your thoughts? Is that cat posing for the camera?

fordtech:
That epoxy reminds me of wild E coyote cartoons and that black stuff in cans labeled ACME.
 
Supremewhirpol ;

****Re Tomturbomatics's comment off :

"I hope the epoxy does not give off an odor when exposed to hot water and thus make the clothes stinky."

Here there was some odor when I epoxy coated part of the spin basket 4 years ago:

Here I coated the old steel/porcelain spin basket on my 1976 Westinghouse LT570 3 belt frontloader back in 2006 when I rebuilt the machine. The basket was pulled out because the front 6205 bearing's cage broke . The machine still worked but made a mess of noise. For a rebuild I used two new stainless 6205 bearings and a new Frigidaire seal.

The 29 year old basket/drum had some rust spots on my LT570; it was cleaned off with great care and cleaned with MEK; alcohol, etc. Since paint prep is key; I spent several days making sure all the old crud and soap was gone.

The basket was coated with high temp 2 part industrial grade epoxy paint used in the chemical industry for tanks that cost about 60 bucks per gallon. It was cured with heat lamps and later in the sun.

The basket was about 2 months dried when the machine was first used. One could get a hint of PAINT SMELL with hot loads of wash for awhile; then I did not notice it anymore. The first few washes were the worst of course. Any smell was gone after being in the dryer.

If this washer is for a customer; my advice is to wash enough hot loads until there is no smell. Otherwise a picky person that is sensitive might complain.

After 4 years of regular usage here one gets pieces of the paint; ie paint chips about 1/2 the size of a dime or penny in ones wash at times. Thus the toil of the many washer loads has caused some of the paint to come off. This is with a machine that spins at about 540 rpm tops.

The old 3 belt Westy is very tolerant of crud in its big pump; it will pass a ball about 8 to 10mm in size.

After 4 years of usage the pump was making more noise; like it had some stuff in it. When going into the pumps prefilter the sump guard; it had about 1/4 cup worth of epoxy paint chips. To get at the sump filter grate one goes through the basket's removed vane.

After discovering my machine was passing paint chips I worry about this undesolveable stuff clogging up the homes sewer pipes. Thus I have the drain hose passing through a screen window sized home made FILTER; to collect the few chips.

Stuff like paint; tar; RTV etc will not dissolve with drain cleaner. I mention all this because if that tar or epoxy comes off in pieces down the road; it can if enough add to clogs.

In researching what coating to use; about every paint or coating guru acted like it would not work at all; when my own fix seems to have worked better than expected.

The epoxy paint guru 4 years ago mentioned the possible failure mode of making some situations worse by coating them. ie stuff gets trapped between the coating and the based metal; and thus one can get accelerated corrosion.

**** So do you think that your plan will make the spider not touch the SS drum ie no metal to metal? ie is there a plan for a non metalic washer under the 6 bolts?

With the repair here the pieces of paint chips started to appear in the closes washing about 3.5 years after rebuild. At first I just found a few pieces in the dryers lint filter.

Once I found there was 1/4 cup worth of stuff in the sump guard of the washer; I had this sick feeling that maybe a lot more is down in the sewer that might cause a clog.

It is interesting to see somebody else coat FL drums too. With the job that was done here 4 years ago; I would have bought a new basket for the 1976 machine but could not find one.
 
sacrificial anodes

Another idea would to be to use a sacrificial anode that is even less Noble than the Aluminum spider.

Thus one allows the sacrificial anode to dissolve away; and the spider is protected.

It would have to have enough raw mass to save the spider during the machines life.

Drawback is cost; will it leave crud on clothes; break in chunks and foul the seal; whatever.

Both Aluminum and Zinc are used on ships; water heaters etc.

The sacrificial anode would have to be less Nobal than Aluminum; maybe Zinc

http://www.amaralcf.com/~amaralc/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.209
 
3beltwesty:

Oh...right...I forget you are ME...looks like you've been in it forever in a day, back when the dinosaurs once roamed and stepped in their own poop! (HAHAHA)

I'm studying EE, CE, and LAS. What else do you recommend? You've got my attention now.
 
We have had success using regular Duron two part epoxy to coat areas where the porcelain failed. I guess I was spooked by the term "coal tar" epoxy knowing that coal tar is a carcinogen but not much else about it and was worried that it might have a powerful lingering odor.

Old style WH front loaders from the 60s spoiled me for most newer front loaders. The machines were very stable with the cast-iron tub weights. With the powerful pump with vanes that went to the walls of the pump chamber driven off the washer motor and its location right under the sump in the bottom of the outer tub, there was none of this suds and air-locking foolishness like in modern machines where you have a column of air between the pump and the tub. It was a shame that they did not spin between the two deep rinses, but the cycle modification seen in the Kenmore Dual Tumble washer took care of that. I also liked the spray tumble rinse after the wash to help dilute the detergent concentration in the load and knock down any suds that remained after the drain.
 
any ideas on electrically isolating the alum from SS ?

Supremewhirpoland the group;

I wonder out loud if you could get away with some super thin non conductive washers to help electrically isolate the aluminum spider from the SS basket?

The washers ideally would be thin enough that mechanical tolerances would not be a problem; but thick enough to isolate the metal items.

Thus maybe some Mylar/polyester washers that are a few mils thick is a wild idea. Due to the washers heat and preload on the bolts; placing a non metal isolator has its risks. You do not want the basket to come loose; ie the bolts preload to back off too much due to mechanical creep. Thus the thinnest washer should be used if possible.

So is the SS drum tapped for the 6 bolts? The LG WM2277HW service manual really just shows the SS drum and spider not in any details.

The image in YUK!/reply 74 sort of looks like the SS drum has PEM nuts like; ie the nut part is part of the SS drum.
 
LG's boot changed after Sept 2007; it has drain holes

With LG Front loaders; after about Sept 2007 the boot has drain holes.

for WM2277HW the old boot is #4986ER0004B;
the new boot is #4986ER0004F with drain holes.

If you google these two numbers one gets washers made by LG, Sears Kenmore He , Zenith.

Gee; we have Sears washer made by LG!
 
old versus new boots

It looks like the New type boot has some extra stuff so it drains back into the tub. Thus the tube has a different front piece and hose to allows this water to drain back. Thus a new boot on a real old washer might require a pie pan on the laundry room floor; or this extra stuff. The C shaped lower counter weight on the newer design has a cutout this new drain hose. The newer tub cover is 3550ER0004A

3beltwesty++12-4-2010-20-02-15.jpg
 
July 2006 LG was working on the new tub front for the new dr

The LG plot thickens.

Here is where LG was making first New tub fronts for the drainable new type boots back in July 2006.

That tub front number of 3550ER0004A has just one google hit; thus buying an after market one looks slim at best.

3beltwesty++12-4-2010-20-28-42.jpg
 
So for this new boot I have to also replace the lower counter weight? For my purposes, that is beyond the scope of repairs that I plan to do to Horsey. If I happen to come across a Washer/Dryer machine, I probably would use an updated boot if one had not already been implemented.

Yes, there are 6 bolts, the bolts go through the spider, cylinder and into the baffles. Both bearings that I'm using are sealed, and require more torque. The spider and drum will also be heavier, which might throw off the load sensing and water level features.

I read either in the service manual, or some where that the water temp can get up to 167 deg_F, so expansion of the nonmetal washers could be an issue. I'll see what type of washers I can find.

3beltwesty:
Do you know of the best nonconducting material that washers are made of, that would expand the least? I'm wondering if I can use thin plastic between the bolts, cylinder and spider and not worry about thicker plastic washers. What do you think?

The spider and cylinder having proper clearance inside the outer drum is important.

Also:
Does anyone have an idea of what the capacity of this machine is as far as dry clothes weight? The cylinder is rated for 3.83 cu.ft. IEC I'm guessing some where around 16-18LB?

When you apply the epoxy, it does have a VERY strong odor, and so will what ever you applied it to. Some of the odor does go away after the epoxy has cured some.
 
If you are trying to isolate the aluminum electrically from the stainless, wouldn't you need to put the bolts through some sort of sleeve in addition to the washers? the bolt passing through the aluminum and the stainless will still conduct.

This is a very interesting read. Seems like the engineers that design this stuff should be reading this...
 
electrically isolating the alum from SS and boots too

Supreme; re the isolation electrically.

This might seem crazy but I was thinking of 3 or 4 mil (thousands of an inch) Polyester; like old manual drafting mylar or what floppy discs use. Some film negatives are mylar; but not many. ie Kodak films that had an Estar base.

Thus you would have to use Matt's idea too of placing some Mylar pieces in the spider through holes, so the screws male threads do not touch the spider electrically.

I am not sure what diameter your 6 bolts are; maybe about 1/4 inch say 6 mm since metric? ; maybe 8mm?

With electrically isolating some stuff for experiments I have used homemade mylar washers. A hole punch can be used. Or one can place several pieces of mylar between two clamped boards; and one bores a hole through it. Lord there must be a few million dead floppies somewhere! Floppy discs are mylar, I use to work at several places that made drives.

The whole idea is to somehow electrically isolate the cast aluminum spider from the SS drum; but still have good bolt preload. (tension over the life of the product) .

You really do not want a Marshmellow in the bolts connection; but a thin non conductive barrier. Thin is bad if one has High Voltage; but one has only a volt or two. If too thin any sharp metal feature can with time puncture the barrier . This is better too because of mechanical creep, where things with tension or compression get a set.

A 8mm bolt that has a 4 mil mylar washer added and in 5 years the washer has mushed out to be only 3 mils thick only lost 1 mil in thickness. A torqued up bolt/screw is really a spring; it has a spring rate of K=A*E/L

K is in lbs per inch
A the screw/bolts cross sectional area
L is the length of the part bolted together
E is a material property; it is about 30 million for steel; 10 million for aluminum. Mylar is roughly 1/3 to 1/2 million.

base plastic grades are not that stiff, thus they often add glass fill to bump up the stiffness.

Thus cylinder head bolts are long and made of steel, the head gasket is thin because the material is not as stiff. One wants the bolts to be still in good tension even if the gasket gets a tad thinner with time; after many many hundreds of hot cold cycles. With a thicker plastic gasket or washer in the same design; the bolts preload will drop more.



Supreme; re the new type boot.

It looks like *IF* one placed a new type boot on the old machine, the water would go though the boots drain holes, I guess on ones floor.

Thus I think the reason LG changed to a new tub front is to make this water go back into the tub, thus no water on the floor. I really do not have a clue as how much water would go into a pie pan if one had the new boot on and older machine.

Thus I think a factory retrofit to an old machine has one using the new boot with holes; the new bypass hose; a new tub front with a port for the bypass hoses. Since the added bypass hose cannot go through the old balance weight; the new weight has a cut-out for the new hose. Thus any machine can use a new balance weigh; a newer machine with a bypass hose cannot use the old weight.

http://machinedesign.com/article/structural-properties-of-bolted-joints-0217
 
There is also epoxy in the mounting holes of the spider. I can try to get some of that mylar in there, but will probably be a tight fit. I could put the mylar under the washers of the bolts and between the spider and the cylinder.
 
I use the old bearings to push in the new bearings. For the rear bearing, make sure the top side of the bearings is flush with the metal that the bearing sits in, or slightly inside.

supremewhirlpol++12-9-2010-18-23-20.jpg
 
Make sure the top of the inner bearing is past the metal that surrounds it. The bearing regions have been fabricated so that when they are inserted, they cannot be pushed in too far. The inner bearing needs to clear the plastic, so that the seal can be installed properly.

supremewhirlpol++12-9-2010-18-33-45.jpg
 
Insert the shaft of the spider into the rear inner tub->carefully. Install the motor into the back and check for proper clearance. The hub of the motor should fit all the way on the shaft->tighten the hub down with the bolt.

supremewhirlpol++12-9-2010-18-53-9.jpg
 
Put the front outer tub on the rear inner tub->check for clearance. Give cylinder a spin->make sure there in no rubbing, and that the cylinder spins freely. ->The boot was actually the reason why this machine was stinking up my car!

supremewhirlpol++12-9-2010-18-58-35.jpg
 
Don't forget to clean the rubber seal that holds the outer tub together. Since the tub unit is pretty much assembled, it has some weight to it->may require two people to insert into the cabinet and put the springs in the holders. Putting the boot and clamp on is a real pain. Remember to be gentle with the wires and connections.

supremewhirlpol++12-9-2010-19-04-21.jpg
 
Components on the PCB can't dissipate heat properly because of the epoxy? that it is in, thus the electronic smell that I get-> NOT GOOD!

supremewhirlpol++12-9-2010-19-13-16.jpg
 
Looks like a super great job.

I spotted the voltohm meters leads in photo #171, hopefully the isolation will fix the aluminum to SS issue.

The seal on my old 1976 FL washer here was a total mess to get it in the metal bore, the hardest part of the job. I made a puller with washers to get it to go in square and still ruined the seal. Finally I got the 2nd one in, it is a press fit on mine.

Coating boards with epoxy is done sometime for tampering, mostly for protection. It makes the part more robust for mechanical abuse while building the unit, no parts get bent or broken.

*IF* designed properly, one has no parts that get real hot under this coating. Some of those connectors are right by capacitors and get broken when folks assemble the units.

*OR* the board design layout is hokey and surface moisture on the board screws up some servos and analog stuff.

A washing machine's seal design is rather non trivial. The old design might have been poor.

I posted a cool link on seal design for folks to see.

http://www.rlhudson.com/shaft seal book/sample-industry5.html
 
Are you sure you arent just smelling residual dust and contamination from the motor area where you did the sensor fix?

Looks like a magnificent job supremewhirlpol
 
3beltwesty:
I noticed that the seals were different and that the area around the shaft on the spider different compared to the old spider as well. As a result I had to remove the epoxy around the shaft. My concern was that the uneven surface would cause the outer lip of the new seal to fail. Yes the cylinder is isolated from the spider, however there is one bolt that is not isolated from the spider, but is isolated from the cylinder. I probably should have ordered new baffles, as the threads are plastic. This is a first try->you learn and improve as you learn from your mistakes. Thanks for your help!! Interesting link you posted.

fordtech:
The smell does come from the board when the machine is running.

I did think about relocating the board and using a different enclosure, but I may do more damage to the PCB in the process. A replacement costs~$60->moderately cheap in cost to buy. I think for now I'll leave the cover of the PCB off and place shielding around the water valves. Since I have taken the cover off, the PCB does not get as hot.

If I have time, I just may test it today. Will post a video on YT.
 
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