Everyone meet Horsey->LG
- Thread starter supremewhirlpol
- Start date
Help Support :
PhotonPanda
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2010
- Messages
- 36
They could have put cooling fans, but that would make things more complex and more costly; fans fail remarkably quick too. I think a washing machine is still not complex enough that it requires forced air cooling for its compute power.
You'll notice that even the motor doesn't have separate cooling, but the cooling is built into the mechanism itself. The slots on the outer rotating hub direct air into the motor to cool it as it spins.
Embedded electronics are typically made with low power consumption and low heat output in mind, although there may be a part which puts out more heat. Just stick a suitable size heat sink on those parts and they'll be fine without fans. There are many parts which will stand up to a lot of heat before being in any danger of failing too. Unfortunately it doesn't mean you'll never smell them. :-D
You'll notice that even the motor doesn't have separate cooling, but the cooling is built into the mechanism itself. The slots on the outer rotating hub direct air into the motor to cool it as it spins.
Embedded electronics are typically made with low power consumption and low heat output in mind, although there may be a part which puts out more heat. Just stick a suitable size heat sink on those parts and they'll be fine without fans. There are many parts which will stand up to a lot of heat before being in any danger of failing too. Unfortunately it doesn't mean you'll never smell them. :-D
supremewhirlpol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 2,134
The PCB in the picture is also the motor control unit. All the the power electronics in a motor control unit generate lots of heat. A properly designed motor control unit will either have a fan or a BIG heat sink to deal with all the heat. Since I have removed the cover, it doesn't really smell any more. I do notice a temperature change at the rear left side of the top. This is where the PCB is located.
Yes, A fan would be good, remember these machines are put together as cheaply as possible, so a fan would not added. They would probably rather that the part fail because of lack of proper heat dissipation. The person goes out sells another kidney to buy another crap machine! It makes the LG folks happy. I will probably add a fan, but given that some of the circuits on the PCB probably have tight tolerances for current amounts, adding a fan might not be very easy.
Yes, A fan would be good, remember these machines are put together as cheaply as possible, so a fan would not added. They would probably rather that the part fail because of lack of proper heat dissipation. The person goes out sells another kidney to buy another crap machine! It makes the LG folks happy. I will probably add a fan, but given that some of the circuits on the PCB probably have tight tolerances for current amounts, adding a fan might not be very easy.
supremewhirlpol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 2,134
Getting the actual fan is not the problem. I have tons of fans of different sizes, voltages, CFM output, etc. I have both sleeve and ball bearing fans, standard PC fans, server grade fans, industrial fans, and special application fans. I have 48VDC,24VDC,12VDC, 5VDC, 3.3VDC, 110VAC, 220VAC, 208VAC, 27VAC 3phase Squarewave fans, AC tubeaxial fans, split-phase fans, PSC motor fans, shaded pole fans, 1 or 2 standard box fans and maybe a vintage fan or two.
I want the fan to shut off when the machine shuts off, so I have to find an appropriate place on the PCB to wire it. When selecting a place, I want the amount of current that the fan draws to not over load the circuit, and cause an electrical component to fail. I also don't want electrical noise from the fan to affect the function of other things on the PCB as well.
I want the fan to shut off when the machine shuts off, so I have to find an appropriate place on the PCB to wire it. When selecting a place, I want the amount of current that the fan draws to not over load the circuit, and cause an electrical component to fail. I also don't want electrical noise from the fan to affect the function of other things on the PCB as well.
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
Just wondering . . .
With the epoxy you used to seal the spider and inner tub. Does it have an effect on the balance of the tub, or is the spider so far back that it doesn't matter?
After watching your repair, I am just glad that I resisted the man at Sear's that promised me everything but a pony ride if I would go LG. I am glad I kept saying no.
With the epoxy you used to seal the spider and inner tub. Does it have an effect on the balance of the tub, or is the spider so far back that it doesn't matter?
After watching your repair, I am just glad that I resisted the man at Sear's that promised me everything but a pony ride if I would go LG. I am glad I kept saying no.
3beltwesty
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2010
- Messages
- 1,057
LG not alone in aluminum spider failures
iheartmaytag; LG is not alone in having aluminum spiders that break.
Supremewhirlpol here documented very well this LG that had one fail.
The real question for a home consumer is what if any brands do not have an aluminum spider directly connected to a Stainless drum, about all the other brand do this too.
The web is full of tales, videos of the other brands that failed too; some of these web links of woes are long and old; ie over 8 years ago. One has failures with Whirlpool, GE, Maytag, Sears, Frigidaire, etc etc in aluminum spiders. With some brands one could not even replace the spider, one has to buy the entire stainless basket too, the entire assembly.
With an old Maytag Neptune, they had a plastic isolator.
Type in Google : aluminum spider washer corrosion
and read the mess of folks woes and LG has few hits, since they are newer to FL washers. ie the time bomb of field failures hit yet with a newer brand.
For most folks a major failure in a home washer like an aluminum spider breaking means the washer is junked. Look at all the stuff that has to be removed in supremes great images just to replace the spider. One has the raw cost of 2 new bearings, seal, spider and bolts a maybe 1/2 to 1 days labor. With some brand the loose drum has a screw that ruins the outer tub too. It is such a bad task that most repair places quote the required labor cost and folks freak out. It is major surgery, one has to take the whole machine apart. It has risk too for the repair chap, connectors can be brittle, plastics can break.
The average Joe or Jane who buys an Acme FL washer for 500 to 800 bucks will junk it when the spider breaks in 3 to 12 years.
http://fixitnow.com/wp/2009/10/28/f...ion-contagion-a-menagerie-of-metallic-misery/
iheartmaytag; LG is not alone in having aluminum spiders that break.
Supremewhirlpol here documented very well this LG that had one fail.
The real question for a home consumer is what if any brands do not have an aluminum spider directly connected to a Stainless drum, about all the other brand do this too.
The web is full of tales, videos of the other brands that failed too; some of these web links of woes are long and old; ie over 8 years ago. One has failures with Whirlpool, GE, Maytag, Sears, Frigidaire, etc etc in aluminum spiders. With some brands one could not even replace the spider, one has to buy the entire stainless basket too, the entire assembly.
With an old Maytag Neptune, they had a plastic isolator.
Type in Google : aluminum spider washer corrosion
and read the mess of folks woes and LG has few hits, since they are newer to FL washers. ie the time bomb of field failures hit yet with a newer brand.
For most folks a major failure in a home washer like an aluminum spider breaking means the washer is junked. Look at all the stuff that has to be removed in supremes great images just to replace the spider. One has the raw cost of 2 new bearings, seal, spider and bolts a maybe 1/2 to 1 days labor. With some brand the loose drum has a screw that ruins the outer tub too. It is such a bad task that most repair places quote the required labor cost and folks freak out. It is major surgery, one has to take the whole machine apart. It has risk too for the repair chap, connectors can be brittle, plastics can break.
The average Joe or Jane who buys an Acme FL washer for 500 to 800 bucks will junk it when the spider breaks in 3 to 12 years.
http://fixitnow.com/wp/2009/10/28/f...ion-contagion-a-menagerie-of-metallic-misery/
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
I knew that other machines also suffered spider failure, I just was not that impressed with the LG when I looked at them. Ditto for the Samsung.
I just felt better buying a nice American marketed, German built machine. And I bought an extended warranty.
I just felt better buying a nice American marketed, German built machine. And I bought an extended warranty.
3beltwesty
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2010
- Messages
- 1,057
which "American marketed, German built machine" ?
which model number?
which model number?
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
which model number?
Maytag 5000 series With Steam.
I had it and it's matching dryer for a year now. We are very happy together.
Maytag 5000 series With Steam.
I had it and it's matching dryer for a year now. We are very happy together.
supremewhirlpol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 2,134
Of all the fans I have, these make the cut for this application. The Sprite(middle) (requires 48V) is OK. The Nidec is server grade and 3 wire (12V) and the NMB (biggest) provides the most air movement. It requires 48V as well, a good server grade fan too. For this application, it would be a WASTE to use the Nidec, especially since it has the connector that makes it convenient to plug into computer motherboards.
supremewhirlpol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 2,134
It has 5 wires coming out of it. When opening the terminal block, the fan is actually a 3 wire fan. From the circuit board on the fan, there are wires red(+),white(sensor), and black(-) coming from the fan motor. Wires blue, Yellow, White come from the other side of the board. I only need to use wires red and black.
supremewhirlpol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 2,134
Works quite well! Now to install...
3beltwesty
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2010
- Messages
- 1,057
Measured Power Consumption of entire LG washer while running
Here I measured with a wattmeter the input to a new LG WM2501HWA steam washer during a fast tumble and the spin cycle too.
This washer has the same spider part number, same stator as the LG washer in this thread, but is rated at 4.2 cuft instead of 4.0 cuft . The PCB is different since it has the steam settup.
DATA:
(1) The wash power while spinning at max wash rpm, say 50 rpm? speed was between 85 and 105 watts,
(2) spin/extract 380 to 420 watts.
(3) During the many mini back and forth cycles and *most* of the running time the power is real small like 5 to 22 watts while the drum is moving. It drops to 0 to 2 watts for a soak.
The total Kilowatt hours for the wash load was 0.14, this is lower than my 1976 3 belt Westinghouse which is about 0.22 to 0.25 KWhr. If one on the new LG uses the steam or heater and/or a long cycle the power consumed can double.
This was with a "kill a watt" meter connected between the washer and AC wall plug, with washer load of about a dozen T shirts. The spin setting was not the max but the default one setting below max, for the normal wash setting.
If the board driving the stator is marginal, it would probably fail during the spin cycle. Thus having the added fan somehow running when the spin cycle is running would be an idea.
Here I measured with a wattmeter the input to a new LG WM2501HWA steam washer during a fast tumble and the spin cycle too.
This washer has the same spider part number, same stator as the LG washer in this thread, but is rated at 4.2 cuft instead of 4.0 cuft . The PCB is different since it has the steam settup.
DATA:
(1) The wash power while spinning at max wash rpm, say 50 rpm? speed was between 85 and 105 watts,
(2) spin/extract 380 to 420 watts.
(3) During the many mini back and forth cycles and *most* of the running time the power is real small like 5 to 22 watts while the drum is moving. It drops to 0 to 2 watts for a soak.
The total Kilowatt hours for the wash load was 0.14, this is lower than my 1976 3 belt Westinghouse which is about 0.22 to 0.25 KWhr. If one on the new LG uses the steam or heater and/or a long cycle the power consumed can double.
This was with a "kill a watt" meter connected between the washer and AC wall plug, with washer load of about a dozen T shirts. The spin setting was not the max but the default one setting below max, for the normal wash setting.
If the board driving the stator is marginal, it would probably fail during the spin cycle. Thus having the added fan somehow running when the spin cycle is running would be an idea.
supremewhirlpol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 2,134
!!!BAD NEWS!!!
Start to get knocking noise when spinning cylinder. Bearings don't have any "play" them. Felt what I think is water between the motor plate and the rear of the outer tub where the rear shock is. Looks like water is draining from the weep hole behind the water seal!->not good. When the bearings fail(soon) I'll make a wind turbine out of this machine!
Start to get knocking noise when spinning cylinder. Bearings don't have any "play" them. Felt what I think is water between the motor plate and the rear of the outer tub where the rear shock is. Looks like water is draining from the weep hole behind the water seal!->not good. When the bearings fail(soon) I'll make a wind turbine out of this machine!
supremewhirlpol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 2,134
Videos of Horsey are up
prewash spin
prewash spin
supremewhirlpol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 2,134
main wash video
3beltwesty
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2010
- Messages
- 1,057
What are thoughts about the ball bearings?
Do you think the ball bearings are somehow cocked, or with too much axial preload?
If you have the machine off and revolve the basket, how many clicks (bearing noises) do you hear per revolution?
In your recent videos at what time X:YZ is the bearing noise the worst?
Do you think the ball bearings are somehow cocked, or with too much axial preload?
If you have the machine off and revolve the basket, how many clicks (bearing noises) do you hear per revolution?
In your recent videos at what time X:YZ is the bearing noise the worst?
LG2455HG
Just picked up one of these machines for $30, a WM2455HG. Seller said it was making noise and I noted drum had slop. Also has/had mudd butt. Tore it down and knocked out bearings. Based on what ive read here and elsewhere, I feel obligated to make some comments.
This machine was manufactured 2007, not sure when it went into service. Guy I bought it from said they bought it used 5 years ago, that until this problem they loved it and just bought two new LG stackable FL'ers because this had worked so well.
The only luck ive had or seen with washing machines over my 55 years were Maytags or Whirlpools my parents bought new. I never saw any consumer grade washers that I thought were worth putting much time or effort into once something major fritzed. Why would you put $200 into a timer, or same amount or more into a transmission when you could go buy a new maching like it for $300, or just go find a used one for $50? Makes no sense. Usually, once the belt was worn out, so was the machine.
So why on earth would I purposely go out and buy an LG front loader with blown bearings? Several reasons. First, we have a well that runs dry if we draw too much water. If wifey does more than three loads, and someone takes a shower or does dishes, water will be out for a while. So a washer that uses less water was desireable. Second, LG has been one of the higher rated consumer grade front loaders. Third, this isnt a $200 repair to a $300 machine, this is a $60 repair to much more expensive machine. Repaired, I could easily sell this machine for $400-500. Yeah, I do have "time" into it. But most of that was wasted "learning" how to take it apart. I could have the tub out of one in a bit over an hour now that I know how it comes apart. If I were paying someone labor it wouldnt make sense. But it woudlnt make sense on a $300 top loader either. At $100 hour labor, plus parts, most washers arent worth fixing once they fritz.
I dont know what ill have when this thing goes back together, but I saw it run and all the lights lit up, so I assume it should be okay. But I have a few observations. First, I was impressed how clean it was after I opened it up. No transmission flinging oil and soap water around the cabinet like a front loader. That bolt on the back that mushes, appears to be bronze. I dont think its "cheap", I believe it was installed as a stretch bolt to keep constant but reasonable tension on the bearings. There is no sleeve between the inner and outer bearings inner races. If to much tension is applied, the bearings will fail.
On the corrosion issue, the spider/drum support on this machine is in fine shape. Its not corroded at all. I cant speak with any more authority than anyone else, other than to surmize that most of the corrosion issues are likely due to poor water conditions, wrong/too much soap, and or leaving the machine closed up after running. Or, LG made some change to the spider material without telling anyone.
Overall, I didnt think it was that bad to tear apart. But then, I have an aviation and exotic car mechanical background and understand complex mechanisms. This isnt really complex, just different. Not sure i like the computer control deal, would prefer a common mechanical timer, but otherwize I can live with it.
I do not like government telling us what to do, or forcing manufactures to make rediculous changes. But thats the world we live in. And while I dont think we are all running out of water, and dont believe the sky is falling, I also dont think we need to see how much water we can flush down the hole. OTOH, thanks to unions, labor has become so expensive manufacturers are forced to build throwaway machines, or make them more expensive to offset future repair costs. One warrantee service call on a new machine will totally wipe out any profit the manufacturer made on the sale. Think about that a minute.
So I am going to fool with this a while, and in the meantime, keep my eyes peeled for an older commercial laundromat SQ front loader.
One last observation. I noted that the OP installed the seal using grease. Seals should always be installed dry (unless specifically stated otherwise by the manufacturer) so they wont push out. My guess is the seal pushed out shortly after starting, and flooded the new bearings. That and he likely used a harder retaining bolt and put too much tension on the bearings. Probably a combination of the two.
Just picked up one of these machines for $30, a WM2455HG. Seller said it was making noise and I noted drum had slop. Also has/had mudd butt. Tore it down and knocked out bearings. Based on what ive read here and elsewhere, I feel obligated to make some comments.
This machine was manufactured 2007, not sure when it went into service. Guy I bought it from said they bought it used 5 years ago, that until this problem they loved it and just bought two new LG stackable FL'ers because this had worked so well.
The only luck ive had or seen with washing machines over my 55 years were Maytags or Whirlpools my parents bought new. I never saw any consumer grade washers that I thought were worth putting much time or effort into once something major fritzed. Why would you put $200 into a timer, or same amount or more into a transmission when you could go buy a new maching like it for $300, or just go find a used one for $50? Makes no sense. Usually, once the belt was worn out, so was the machine.
So why on earth would I purposely go out and buy an LG front loader with blown bearings? Several reasons. First, we have a well that runs dry if we draw too much water. If wifey does more than three loads, and someone takes a shower or does dishes, water will be out for a while. So a washer that uses less water was desireable. Second, LG has been one of the higher rated consumer grade front loaders. Third, this isnt a $200 repair to a $300 machine, this is a $60 repair to much more expensive machine. Repaired, I could easily sell this machine for $400-500. Yeah, I do have "time" into it. But most of that was wasted "learning" how to take it apart. I could have the tub out of one in a bit over an hour now that I know how it comes apart. If I were paying someone labor it wouldnt make sense. But it woudlnt make sense on a $300 top loader either. At $100 hour labor, plus parts, most washers arent worth fixing once they fritz.
I dont know what ill have when this thing goes back together, but I saw it run and all the lights lit up, so I assume it should be okay. But I have a few observations. First, I was impressed how clean it was after I opened it up. No transmission flinging oil and soap water around the cabinet like a front loader. That bolt on the back that mushes, appears to be bronze. I dont think its "cheap", I believe it was installed as a stretch bolt to keep constant but reasonable tension on the bearings. There is no sleeve between the inner and outer bearings inner races. If to much tension is applied, the bearings will fail.
On the corrosion issue, the spider/drum support on this machine is in fine shape. Its not corroded at all. I cant speak with any more authority than anyone else, other than to surmize that most of the corrosion issues are likely due to poor water conditions, wrong/too much soap, and or leaving the machine closed up after running. Or, LG made some change to the spider material without telling anyone.
Overall, I didnt think it was that bad to tear apart. But then, I have an aviation and exotic car mechanical background and understand complex mechanisms. This isnt really complex, just different. Not sure i like the computer control deal, would prefer a common mechanical timer, but otherwize I can live with it.
I do not like government telling us what to do, or forcing manufactures to make rediculous changes. But thats the world we live in. And while I dont think we are all running out of water, and dont believe the sky is falling, I also dont think we need to see how much water we can flush down the hole. OTOH, thanks to unions, labor has become so expensive manufacturers are forced to build throwaway machines, or make them more expensive to offset future repair costs. One warrantee service call on a new machine will totally wipe out any profit the manufacturer made on the sale. Think about that a minute.
So I am going to fool with this a while, and in the meantime, keep my eyes peeled for an older commercial laundromat SQ front loader.
One last observation. I noted that the OP installed the seal using grease. Seals should always be installed dry (unless specifically stated otherwise by the manufacturer) so they wont push out. My guess is the seal pushed out shortly after starting, and flooded the new bearings. That and he likely used a harder retaining bolt and put too much tension on the bearings. Probably a combination of the two.
