FL WASHERS and BAD MOLD SMELLS; when did you 1st hear about this issue?

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Not until I joined this forum....

...had I ever heard of 'smelly washer' syndrome with front loaders.

 

I've mentioned earlier that it appears to be both a recent and (generally) North American problem that I believe is caused by:

 

- liquid detergents; and

- overdosing of fabric softeners...

 

...and exacerbated by closing the doors on machines when not in use.

 

If people went back to powdered detergents, reduced the amount of softener they used AND left the door ajar between uses, the problem would not exist....

 

It's as simple as that....
 
Glad you're bringing up this topic...

Ever since I joined this forum I wanted to share with you guys my experience with mould or less dramatically musty smells... and now it's the finest time to do so.
I've been surrounded by FL washers my entire life (I’m almost 37 now) and I never even remotely thought of the possibility of having a mould smelling washing machine... as I've always thought of them as being the antichrist of bacteria! Yet, I have heard of this phenomenon which I used to conceive as absurd, in the last decade or so when reading various experiences on the Internet usually from US FL users. I got my share of that... although to a small extent, involving musty smell from my washing machine and particularly from one garment (a bathrobe) towards the end of last summer. Now I know what caused it, well, at least in my case, and I feel more open to understand this sort of claim.

The whole thing started with my bathrobe with I frequently use after a work out session at the gym (let me make it clear... it served to dry myself after a shower and not to dry the sweat off my body lol), being of a very dark colour, I was always washing it using cold or cool settings on the shortest possible cycle making sure to use a programme which foresaw 3 (or more) rinses. This was usually enough, I'd use the bathrobe over and over again until I'd feel it was due to go into the laundry basket, without having any specific reasons for doing so. Having said that, something else took place in that particular period (last summer), having occasionally washed colourfast stuff (like light colour towels, bath mat/towels, light/white laundry in general) with a bio detergent designed for use with cold water (Ariel Excel gel) which, contrary to what many ppl say, was giving me excellent cleaning results... I was so impressed by the results that I decided to use it on a more regular basis with all my wash loads (but delicate colours), including endless whites long wash cycles.

Meanwhile I realised that all the other washing detergents in my utility cabinet (I often pick up a box/bottle of washing detergent, either liquid or powder as backup) included the wording 'outstanding results as low as 15°C' so that was it: I decided to take the plunge and become a cold wash freak! Biggest mistake? Yeah... well... I obstinately tried to persuade myself that there might have been something wrong with my nose, my washing machine, my towels, my wardrobe and so forth! It didn't happen at once... first I noticed that my bathrobe was developing some kind of alien odour after only 2 or 3 uses... the same kind of smell that my nose could detect when sticking my head inside the washer's porthole (I don't usually do this... I was investigating). Still, I wouldn't accept the fact that cold washes were the potential culprit and I'd let my existence (well... not only mine) be contaminated with such a horrifying musty smell until one day (after about a month and a half) I had no choice but to acknowledge the fact that cold washes and inappropriate cleaning agents were the root of all evil!

Needless to say I reverted to my old washing habits where some sort of temperature was involved depending on the nature of the wash load (typically cool or warm for darks, warm or hot for light colours and hot or boiling for whites).
This 'undo' operation did not yield instant results as it took several weeks of warm/hot washes before I could go around bragging about my musty smell free washing machine and clothes. The most obstinate smell retainer was my bathrobe which I finally washed on its own on a hot cycle... now I resumed using my cool or warm washes... and on occasions... when I'm dealing with a small load of lightly soiled items... I indulge into a cold wash.

I never had any more similar issues since that incident and I haven't even needed to run the much recommended 'maintenance cycle' to sterilize the washer... I just make sure that every once in a while (say every 1 or 2 weeks) I break my 30-40-50°C washing routine with a hotter cycle... yet, I rarely go above 70 degrees. Albeit my extended experience with FL washers, I managed to allow the creation of some conditions in such a type of appliance which I never thought possible... however this is not an innate front loader design issue... but the result of inadequate measures.
 
Ronic;

What bothers me about the simple answer is that here with the old 1976 Westinghouse I have used liquids for the last 7 to 10 years; when powdered All was not available locally. Thus say from roughly 2000 to 2010 an American older FL machine was used mostly with liquid All as the primary machine and I did not get any mold problems.

But my neighbor's 1990's Maytag Neptune that used powdered Tide got " a "PUKING STINK" stink as my neighbor called it" .

Thus if a FL machine from 1976 has no stink and it uses liquid soap; how come a Maytag Neptune "smelled like a sewer" after only a year or two that uses powder?

The answer is not that simple; or flipped on its head why is it that FL machines that were made for 50 years have no mold issues and have a do not care about liquids or powder? ie how is a new machine so non robust that one has to use certain soaps or use bleach?

With the 1976 westy I probably only use bleach once a year on some odd wash job; and most of the time I use cold water and liquid soaps
 
Welll......

....if you note that I mentioned 3 key factors that work together to cause the problem, not just detergent....

 

Further more, both liquid detergents and fabric conditioners have, historically, been 'oil' based which provides a lovely food for mould. Additionally, when the un-informed then shut the door on their machines, they then provide the warm, moist environment for mould growth....

 

So, in summary....

 

- modern machines use significantly less water and people have a tendency to over dose both detergents and fabric conditioners

 

which leads to:

 

- ineffective rinsing

 

and:

 

- residue in machines

 

which provides:

 

- a food source for mould

 

and this is made worse when:

 

- people shut the doors

 

providing:

 

- a lovely warm and moist environment for.....

 

<span style="font-size: xx-large;">MOULD! </span>

<span style="font-size: xx-large;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: small;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: small;">One key factor about all vintage machines is that they use HUGE amounts of water to wash and rinse with which will drastically reduce the chance of residue in the drum...regardless of which detergent a person uses....</span>
 
The old 1976 machine uses 30 gallons max per cycle; if one sets the water level control at maximum. Here that is only done if the machine is real full; thus rarely. A typical cycle with the 1976 machine here was just at low or medium water level setting and the water used was in the 22 to 25 gallon range. say 83 to 95 Liters. This machine used the least amount of water of any American washer back in a 1978 Consumer Reports test..

Thus I wonder if the say 1996? Neighbors Maytag Neptune washer was really radically a more thrifty machine in water usage.

Once the Neighbor had the sewer smell issue they left their machines door open all the time. The boot was replaced a few times too.

Ronic & Hexifan ; Maybe liquid detergent issue is one of rinising? ie some machines rince poor and thus the gunk is left over on the items?

Here the water is absurdly soft; hardly any soap is required,

Thus maybe since my family has used FL machines for so long that we do not use too much and my neighbor used way too much?
 
Never had an issue with my Neptunes.....liquid Tide, and downy, washed in all temps available at any given time, never overloaded, bleach used on a regular basis, never kept the door open.......and never heard of any mold issues from anyone, until I heard about it on this site about others......

thats not without saying....my sisters 1970 solid tub speed queen, for its entire life was only hooked up to cold water, a variety of detergents and such, don't recall her ever using bleach, lid kept closed at all times, machine was in the basement, and you could smell the odor whenever you walked into her house, in 1986 she got a GE FF, the smell went away, but you couldn't tell her, she would blame the odor on a damp basement, and from the heater...

from 1986 to 1998 I had a frigidaire tall tumbler, normal routine for washing, never kept the door open, and never had a mold or smell issue........

but it must come from a varety of conditions, moist, warm, dark, detergents, softners, water conditions, or even what the machine is constructed from.....

even Whirlpool has a few machines with a grey tub that is actibacterial, to reduce smell and odors......in a machine that would not normally have these issues.....but makes you wonder why the plastic in newer FL don't have something built into the plastic to help eliminate this issue....
 
3beltwesty - Liquid detergent...

Well... it might be just me... but I always had the impression that liquid detergent was easier to remove from the wash load. I'm saying this cos' I went through an episode quite some time ago with my previous washer in which I was running a load of coloureds using some cheap & nasty detergent powder (store own brand)... when I got the clean supposedly laundered clothes out of the washer they had traces of undissolved powder on them.

I always had cold washes thrown in with the rest of the cycles, the bad smell incident only started to manifest itself when I insisted and persisted in running cold washes continuously with all loads using both bio and non bio products in a random fashion: thid scenario was a one off thing that related to that incident (described above) only... thus I wouldn't know whether it would've happened with previous washers too... or if it would've been the case should I have stuck with the first product (Ariel Excel gel) which gave promising results to start with and was the 1 which convinced me in the 1st place to convert into a cold wash maniac.

Night.
 
Suffice to say that even 22 US Gallons is a LOT of water given the machines capacity AND the amount of washing that may have been washed on a 'low' setting V's the size of the Maytag and how much people tend to shove in them.....but lets not get onto the capacity and water consumption issue....

 

You're usage of these machines for decades means that you and your family completely understand what to and what not to do....

 

....the bulk of people have no idea about how much detergent, softener etc to use and those key things I mentioned above will play havoc with the unseen parts of any modern machine
 
Hi Donprohel...

thanks for shedding light on that... I just thought of a note included in the troubleshoot manual of my current washing machine which seems to be in line with what you're saying... I quote below:

"Note:
The use of environmentally-friendly, phosphate-free
detergents (check detergent information on pack) can have
the following effects:
œ Waste water from rinsing may be cloudier because of the
presence of a white powder (zeolites) held in suspension,
without the rinse performance being adversely affected.
œ Presence of white powder on laundry after washing,
which is not absorbed by the fabric and does not alter the
colour of the fabric.
œ The presence of foam in the final rinsing water is not
necessarily an indication of poor rinsing. Carrying out
more rinse cycles does not serve any purpose in such cases."

Having said that I occasionally use cheap detergents even today and my laundry has not longer suffered similar symptoms... so I can only deduce that my current washer rinses better than the previous one (I doubt it as the previous Zanussi-Electrolux was a water hog) or the cheap & nasty powders available today are not so packed with zeolites as they used to be. But when it came to use cold water cycles only I believe my best bet would have been to stick to the pricier detergents... still I'm not 100% sure on that... maybe I'll give it another shot one of these days ;-)
 
Haxisfan;

Ronhic on other threads has mentioned that he believes liquid detergents sort of add to the mold issues with American front loaders. Here I never heard of this until I came to this message board, thus the subject is quite interesting since I here use all liquids for almost a decade!

The old 1976 FL westys water consumption with usa machines was probably only bettered when early/mid 1990's American new front loaders came out. If I buy a token starter Top Loader here on sale for 300 bucks; it uses more water than the old front loader of 1976. Thus from a US prospective the old frontloader still does not use much water.

****There really has to some added fundamental design flaws on newer American front loaders; if for 50 years their were Zero smell issues; and some mid 1990's Front loaders smell like an open sewer such they get rid of the moldy beast.

It is like if in Germany cars get glove box odors; and folks have to buy glove box cleaners and 1/2 century of VW bug owners never heard of these issues.

Newer early/mid 1990s plus American FL washers have often giant boots and windows compared to earlier FL washers and non usa FL models.

Maybe the
y pump sump is poorer in design?

One Sears Kenmore FL washer that a chap had the spider break posted a video showing how drum screws were collecting wads of lint and how the screws ate through the plastic tub once the aluminum spider failed.

A corroded aluminum spider that is cheese like and porous must be a haven for crap to grow in too. Using aluminum in a washing machine was once considered the sign of a stupid dumb careless engineer. An aluminum design book from 40 years ago shows that aluminum is a poor choice for this application.

Thus maybe one has newer US FL washers that corrode more, collect and hold sump water more, more plastics are used, one has a dumber set of end users who use too much soap?
 
Smelly Washers

Your machines are fine, its the way some people choose to use them!! ( but i do agree that they went too far to quickly with the very reduced water levels on the new FL energy Star machines!!)

It is to do with the liquids, cold water washing and perhaps not enough bleach, but (IMHO) its more to do with Fabric Conditioners especially since we shifted to Plant based Extracts...

As this is sprayed all over the outer tub during final spin, and if people use toooo much, if this is then left with a closed door then rapid decomosition will ensue...

Rather like having a vase of flowers past their best, the leaves & gloop you get along with rancid water (plant based extracts) is what you get inside your washer...have tested this theory here with 2 new washers, always added powder to the drum and not cleaned the fab con dispenser....after a while the black mold is all over the dispenser!!!

 
Liquid theory here to be is pure bunkl; ie defending a crapp

If it was really just liquid detergents then why does not the older American front loaders have this issue?

Liquid detergents are nothing new here in the usa ; some go back to the 1950's.

The 1976 machine here I took apart in 2005 after 29 years usage did not have all that crap in it.

It was rebuilt and ran from 2006 to 2010 (last fall ) again and did not have all that crap in it either.

Thus folks an older American Front loader does not give a rats rear about using liquids; and does not mold issues like todays American FL machines less robust machines.

Those of us like me who have used FL washers since the 1950's view the mold issues of modern front loaders as really super oddball. The issue did not exist at all for 1/2 century; then when it appears there was denial, excuses.

It is like if tomorrow iron board electric irons get odors; and folks say it is not enough bleach was used; or the wrong type of starch!
 
Scrud?

My previous washing machine was an Asian-style top-loader (I mean, it had a pulsator/impeller, not an agitator) and used 150 litres / 40 gallons of water for a full-load of nominally 7.5 kg / 16 lbs (wash and two rinses with intermediate spins, the drum volume was 63 litres / 2.2 cubic ft).

It produced a black waxy stuff (similar to that in Spankomatic's pictures): the user's manual stated that it was "scrud" and that it is produced when detergent comes in contact with fabric softener in cold water. It was a black and unpleasant stuff, but it did not smell. I have read the same warning in the user's manual of other similar washing machines.

A warm/hot wash every now and then greatly reduced the issue.

Maybe this could support the fabric conditioner theory.[this post was last edited: 3/1/2011-12:28]
 
Here the water is ultra soft. My mom use to use Fabric Conditioner, but that was 2 decades ago and I still have her unused bottles. After she passed away here I never really used it much at all.
 
Liquid detergents are nothing new here in the usa

While liquids may not be new what is in them has changed.

The whole environmental movement which cherishes "plant based cleaners" and cold water washes. Look at some of the ingredients...

Coco-glucoside
Fatty acid methyl esters ethoxylate
Sodium cocoate
Sodium oleate
anionic coconut kernel oil-based surfactant
horsetail plant (may be used as an disinfectant?)
dihydrogenated palmoylethyl hydroxyethylmonium methosulfate
oleic acid

And that's before you even get to the fabric softener.

It's probably a number of factors that all conspire to create mold.
Heck most manufacturers recommend removing and cleaning the dispenser drawer. How many people A) read those instructions B) Actually follow them
 
With an older FL washer one has often no drawer. The user just measures the soap (powder or liquid) and places through the open door and closes the door, ie 1st grade level in "following instructions".

A premium version of my LT570 1976 washer was the LT870. It has the added little square door on the top flat top deck panel where one can add soap. This door just has a tube to connect to the tub. There are two square features on the left of the washers in the link. One is for bleach, another for soap. Some washers too added solenoids to control application; I am not sure if the LTT870 did this or not.

The contents of liquid detergents here is not listed in great details as what is in them; maybe that is more of a non usa requirement in labeling?.

Here using cold water wash is really nothing new. In the summer the water temp in August might be 75 to 85F or even higher. Often when the house was first built back about 1971 we washed in cold water too.

Maybe it is the more water usage and the 3 rinses of the older FL washer that makes mold not happen? or is it the lack of aluminum? or little usage of plastics?

Here the humidity is real high being right by the water. It rains about 65 inches a year / 1.65 meters. I have seen it rain 15 inches in a day here sometimes. In California rain was about 11 inches per year in Los Angeles. It is so humid that water runs do the roof each morning from dew. Cleaning mold here for me is with the refridge gaskets/seals once a year; never a washer problem even with liquid detergents.

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?624
 
Consider this; my entire house went under 2.5 feet of water in Katrina in 2005; along with the 1976 westy being rebuilt. We had no power for two weeks, thus all ones stuff was wet it a dark un lit house that was hot as heck. No mold grew in the washer tub under great conditions for mold. Maybe the old Porclean is not a great food for mold compared to a plastic tub?
 
katrina flooding and washer mold

Honestly 3beltwesty mold needs more than just heat and moisture it also needs food. Without deposits left from body oils, paper, fatty soap and or fabric softener what is there for mold to eat and spread?

Would in the absence of a food source like drywall (pretend you only have old style formaldehyde drywall cement board or the like) just standing water like you describe lead to mold when there are no other sources of mold e.g. mold spores?

You've been through Katrina and are a mechanical engineer. I'd be interested if my theory holds well in your book.

That Maytag top loader I got for nearly nothing had mold sheets so thick I mistook it for "quiet pack insulation" everyone told me to look for. ;-) The continued accumulation of Kleenex from non emptied pockets from that family plus their witches brew of home made soap and fabric softener could easily account for the mold.
 
first time? here!

have never encountered any mold issues in FL.

Leaving the door open and keeping the detergent drawer ajar will do.

Of course this can be misleading as all FL here will heat almost to a boiling temperature and even if you choose to wash up to 60°C (hot wash) only, you still will have no mold. I have no clue of what happens to line filled (non-heating) front loaders - let alone of how other machines are built like (mine here are stainless steel all over):

Infact, I actually do remember my mother telling me (when I was 5) about "evaporation" when I asked her about this strange behaviour (leaving the porthole open). She made these strange waving hand motions going up (trying to imitate moisture getting lost in the air all the way)
Another word learned for a 5 year old! ;-)
 
continued accumulation

How well machine collects fuzz and lint matters too, since this gunk retains moisture. Thus a machine with a spin basket with projecting screws grabs thus fuzz and it retains water and one gets a great slime growing.

With drywall here I in several rooms just removed one side and left the other side up. The old drywall was just washed down and scrubbed and did not have to be replaced at all. Thus even with a food source the mold never happened; because I acted quickly.

One after Katrina had the preaching of toxic mold. In houses that folks left and came back a week or two later the mold grew on all sorts of stuff. Lunacy struck with some and they disposed of fine china if a hint of mold was found. A washer or dryer that only saw 4 inches of water on the floor scrapped due to toxic mold.

Here I really do not know many folks who use fabric softener at all, thus a FL mold issue here has to be mostly due to other reasons.

With plastics; one has gobs of different types in use. This adds another variable.

With my 1976 Westy I took apart in 2005 and again in then fall of 2010 the tubs deposits were really just some water deposits. Sort of a bath tub ring that just comes off with a standard acid based bath tub spray cleaner
 
More odourless observations...

3beltwesty, yes... I find this interesting too! It makes me realize how every single 1 of us can develop different opinions based on several experiences... at this point I guess I can only assume that we're all saying the right thing and stating our truths the way we see them, as I'm sure you'll agree, there are many scenarios out there (even some evidence in some instances) which provide plausible conditions for the existence of mould or bad smells in general. You never experienced any mould issues with your Westy... but maybe you wouldn't have any problems with a new American FL either... who knows... well, it's my understanding you also have a modern LG American FL... only time will tell whether you'll have the same feedback in terms of mould freedom as the Vintage Westy.

Admittedly, everyone, I still fail to see any potential smell issue being directly associated to liquid detergent or powder detergents for that matter... and I feel the same about fabric conditioner... and as for this mixing with detergent it shouldn’t be so likely as it normally enters the washtub on the last rinse when the load is already rid (well... partially rid in the case of a poor rinse performance) of the detergent solution! Personally I've never had any problems with fabric softeners, I'm an absolute fabric conditioner addict... well, my clothes are :-P
Beside the joke I remember when I was living with my parents as a teen... all hell would break lose should the entity responsible for doing the laundry forget to add fabric softener to the wash!

At times when I find a build up of scum left behind by the softener within the detergent draw it doesn't usually have a bad smell... it usually just smells of fabric softener. A few years ago I found myself cleaning my parents washer's detergent draw and I came across something rather staggering... well, the softener compartment had an extra compartment below the usual plastic grille within the drawer itself (I was aware of this... but apparently I was the only 1) which hadn't been taking out of its slot for at least 13 years... this was configured in such a way that it'd look as if it was part of the drawer rather than being a separate piece. When I lived with my parents I used to take care of all washing machine related maintenance operations including cleaning... but having left home, this tricky particular had gone unnoticed till it was confronted by its original carer (me). Of course it was a job an a half to take these little vessels out of their slot (there were 2 actually: 1 for the bleaching agent but never used)... and when I did get them out you can imagine the amount of gunge, scum, sticky substance, encrustation... you name it... that was thriving underneath: it did not smell though... I assume it wasn't mould.

Last thing... many people have mentioned excessive use of detergent (not just in this forum) but can it be just the opposite? Too little detergent can just contribute to allow build up of bacteria and bad smells. I thought it would even make sense if there was a crud formation in a top loader cos' the detergent used in such a large quantity of water might have not been enough on occasions perhaps if a particular load of laundry was dirtier than usual and required a higher amount of detergent. Now I'm mentioning this and... I recall using too little detergent during my 'cold wash freak' days as I figured less detergent would dissolve easier in cold water: don't pick on me now! So there you have it... it might very well be that! When I decided to take charge over the musty smell in my washer last year I obtained the best results when I used a higher dosage of detergent (as well as the use of warmer temperatures as I mentioned in an earlier comment). Having said that my situation might very well be isolated from the rest of the experiences discussed here as the odour I came across was rather faint and undetectable from the others around here... it's mostly me and my obsession for sniffing everything! But I was right... I could smell it, but not anymore now!
 
Well, that's what happens when you have trailer hitch balls...

(ducks and runs!)

Ahem, back on point... when I lived in south Florida in the '80s, the coin-op machines (top loaders) in the apartment complex where I lived had signs on them saying to leave the lid open between uses. If someone left the lid closed on a machine and it sat like that overnight, it would smell a bit like gym socks the next morning. Of course, in south Florida, nothing ever really gets dry.
 
Well, from my screen name I should know, and yes our Neptune was a stinker.  We even had the "mold kit" installed and it still stunk up to the day we had to replace it.  My mother used fabric softener but she also used hot water and bleach too and always Tide HE liquid so that should have cancelled out the softener.  My theory is the use of plastic created so much mold.  Perhaps it is more porous than the porcelain steel and created more of a place for mold to catch?  Every once in a awhile I would have to take the machine apart and the front of the tub off and scrub with bleach.  Eventually, I removed the "brush" at the front as it was too full of mold.  The only way to clean the boot was to pour some straight bleach down and using rubber gloves, spread it all over the area.  One place that I think was poor design was a plastic case where all the water hoses meet to inject the water into the dispenser.  I unscrewed it, and black mold everywhere!  It was contaminating the water before it even got into the machine!

 

I lived in an apartment with a GE Fridgemore and sometimes it would stink but not nearly as badly.  To cure it, I would place an electrasol tab and put it on the prewash cycle, then wash white clothes afterwards and it cleaned up and smelled nice. 

 

I think with the Westinghouse, the smoother porcelain parts dried off sooner and did not have chance for mold to grow.  But those machines rusted terribly. 

 

 
 
The "Smelly Washer" product cleaner's website lists these bullet items:

(1) overuse of detergents
(2) fabric softener use
(3) using mainly cold water for washing
(4) non-use of the appliance.
(5) Obstructions in drain pumps

With the 1976 FL Westy;
(1) was never any issue; we have soft water and hardy use any soap and have always used frontloaders for many decades.

(2) was really minor usage; the same bottles form 1992 are still in the laundry room

(3) COLD WATER I use a lot, in the majority of washing thus; this reason to me seems bogus with my experience.

(4) Not an issue; we used the machine regularly.

(5) No pump issue either.

****Their statement with (5) says in the link that:

"there is always 1-2 gallons of water left in all washers{FL}even after draining."

When I took the 1976 Westy FL machine apart in 2005 and in the fall of 2010 there really was only about 1 to 2 cups of water in the tub-sump/pump body; thus their comment says a modern American front loader has SIXTEEN TIMES the retained water compared to an old FL machine, HARD TO BELIEVE!

Maybe this "retained water" is what causes some issues?

http://smellywasher.com/blog/how-to...-washing-machine-odor-and-towel-mildew-smell/
 

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