FL WASHERS and BAD MOLD SMELLS; when did you 1st hear about this issue?

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This one starts to spin hell bent for leather!

Here is what Tomturbomatic here says about the Westy pump:

"Even though there are European design elements to this machine, the outer tub still retains the shallow sump, covered by a baffle, connected almost directly to a very powerful pump.

The three belt machines powered the pump from the main motor. The pump had to be able to pump out water during the spin because there was no way the machine could stop spinning and still pump out the water.

This one has an independently powered, powerful drain pump and that powerful pump combined with the direct feed from the sump means none of that silly drain water surging between the inner and outer tub causing the machine to stop to pump out the water like some European machines.

This one starts to spin hell bent for leather and keeps spinning regardless of balance or amount of water spun out of the load. The recessed sump with the baffle traps the water as it is spun out so that it does not surge between the two tubs.

It is proven technology that Westinghouse used since the late 50s. It is not as sophisticated as many of the front loaders imported from outside the US, but it is a very rugged machine. It's a shame so few were made and sold."

**How much water is left in machine like this really depends on how well the tub spring are adjusted; and how high the drain is that the pump's exit hose has to lift/throw water too.

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?15890
 
As far as plastics versus porcelain

Plastics can absorb smells radically more than porcelain.

Rancid milk in a Polypropylene milk jug is not one you use to store water with, the stink gets into the plastic itself.

Porcelain is a ceramic and any stink is really due to surface trash and particles; the odor really does not go deep like a plastic.

One can expose a piece of PP/Polypropylene and porcelain to a weird chemical and then clean them and a dog will still smell the Polypropylene item
 
@combo52 I disagree. Overdose with a poor detergent and you have residue. That residue can lead to mold. Also if you already have a poor machine that retains water (early Duets being a good example) that water with poor detergent can act as food source.
 
Spider Corrosion And Foul Odours In Front Load Washers

To pingmeep and COMBO52
A major constituent of powdered detergents is sodium carbonate (washing soda); it is also a major constituent of the powdered ‘Oxi’ products and ‘Affresh’. Further, should the correct concentration be reached, it is corrosive to aluminium and its alloys. It is also hygroscopic. This means any left in the machine at the end of the last rinse cycle will not completely ‘dry out’ but will attract water from the air and as soon as the required concentration is reached corrosion of aluminium, and its alloys, will occur.
 
I have been using front loaders all my life and, honestly, I have never had any of these issues.
Machines :
Zanissi JetSystem 1990s, Miele, moved out: various hotpoints, whirlpools, indesits, etc in rented apartments then a Hotpoint Aqualtis and absolutely none of these machines have had mould issues.

I'm not fussy about how I do laundry. I usually stuff everything in, throw a scoop of colour or regular detergent, ususally unilever persil or Ariel and put it on a 40 C cottons or easy care cycle.

I also always use fabric softener, usually comfort pure, lenor oxygen fresh or a store brand sensitive type.

White towels go in to a stuffed to capacity 60C cottons cycle every few days with a large dose of persil and a bit of fabric softener.

My machine smells nice, gentle whiff of persil.

I wonder is there something about the way US machines are designed that it resulting in mould formation? Eg perhaps they are so big that the outer tank doesn't get splashed with detergent solution enough? They always seem enormous and lightly loaded compared to our machines.

Could it be something to do with detergent formulation? Perhaps ours are better at dealing with mildew or, do not leave deposits that feed it?

There has to be some scientific explanation for the difference as I don't think in we, as end users, are doing anything very different.
 
US Machines are designed around getting a tax credit

RE

"I wonder is there something about the way US machines are designed that it resulting in mould formation? Eg perhaps they are so big that the outer tank doesn't get splashed with detergent solution enough? They always seem enormous and lightly loaded compared to our machines. "

Read Yesterdays March 3,2011 editorial article by the Editors, Wall Street Journal Article in my Link "Tax Reform Exhibit A"

WSJ ****" $225 per washer and dryer." tax credit

WSJ ****** "These appliance credits are in addition to $300 million the feds gave to states as part of the 2009 stimulus to pay rebates to consumers for buying these same goods. So there's one subsidy to make the machines and another to buy them."

WSJ ****** "The Department of Energy says these appliances save families money by reducing energy use by more than half. If that's true, why does the government have to bribe people to make these purchases? "

WESTY(me) Thus the entire design in the USA is to get that low water rating to get that tax kickback to the washer maker. ie 225 dollars per washer from the Feds, and another state subsidy credit back by the Feds too.

The USA has high taxes on businesses, thus a washer maker designs washers here to get that say 300 dollar tax credit.

The design goals are skewed by the governments programs. ie one gets a washer that really just sprays clothes and uses gobs of time. ie typical government carrot that creates a poorer product. In past eras the consumer choose a machine like my 1976 westy that only used 30 gallons; or a 1976 top loader that used 60 gallons. Folks voted by their pocket books. If water costs mattered; they bought a thrifty machine and it often cost more.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704506004576174321393436988.html
 
Imagine if in Europe that the government have MASSIVE tax credits to make beer and wine with lower alcohol content and the side effect was on got the trots. The lower cost new product would drive out the better products. If the USA did not do this; we would wonder why folks in Europe are complaining about the ill effects of the new beers and new wines, designed to grab tax credits.
 
Tax credits create offensive designs sometimes.

dj-gabriele;

I too agree that the US Governments steering of products designs via tax credits is offensive.

It creates waste with many items.

Maybe you do not like analogies; thus example(s) are offensive to you.

Here I find it highly offensive that US products are propped up and supported by via my tax dollars and poorer products are created.

Waste is offensive to me.

Maybe Italy can create a tax on pasta; and give a giant tax break on pseudo plastic like pasta that tastes like packing peanuts and the issue of tax steering products will be understandable.? :) ie your government feels they want to steer your behavior. They create a giant tax break say for pasta that has way less calories, but it tastes bad and creates stomach issues with some. They make the tax break so large that now the bulk of the pasta is now what folks do NOT want, but the chaps in government want folks to use. ie instead of letting natural market forces "decide"; the government creates weirdness as their social agenda.

California awhile back was thinking about giving a tax break on those potato chips that were less fattening, but caused leakage with some. Thus there is actual history with my two examples were the government was thinking of using tax breaks to create food products that creates stomach issues with some.

Europeans on this board constantly talk about their great Fl machines. If your beloved FL machine was sold here it would have no tax credit; thus its design would be changed/ruined/degraded to get that 225 to 300 dollar tax credit for the washer makers.

Folks differ; I find it offensive that the Government has to have giant tax credits that steer washer designs in the wrong way.
 
dj-gabriele;

If your government creates giant tax breaks on your products and ruins your food, washers or cars it does not effect me.
 
Government 'ruining' washing machines

The tax breaks do not 'coerce' manufacturers into producing poorer quality machines. An energy efficient machine with low water consumption is in now way, shape or form inferior, just different.

The machines sold here use about the same amount of water per kg of laundry as an American one, yet they wash and rinse better than most water hogging machines of years gone by, they are also more gentle on clothing, due to better drum designs and wash profiles.

The difference is, I guess, that we couldn't care less how long a washer takes to complete a load, because we rarely let laundry build up to the point that multiple loads must be done one after the other, and we do not wait around for the machine to finish.

The Government is not forcing manufacturers to make poorly deisgned machines in the U.S., if anything, what they are doing is making it cheaper for them to produce well designed, energy efficient machines. Unfortunately, as big money grabbing corporations always do, the manufacturers have taken the rebates and run, leaving the consumer with poorly designed and badly thought out machines, which do not do the job properly because they do not use the resources they utilise (energy, water) efficiently enough.

The reason there are so many poor quality machines on the market today is because of poor build quality, poorly made components and cutting corners on quality control. It's nothing to do with the Government, nothing to do with whether the machine is made in China or the USA, it's simply the parts used, the training the people making the machines have recieved, and the level of quality control.

Remember, not all machines were sturdy or reliable years ago, many truly terrible machines were made. In the same sense not all machines made today are 'junk' as so many people on here try to make them out to be.

Matt
 
Consider the USA's ethanol Boondoggle

Look at ethanol if you think that the government is such a great god to worship.

Here they mandate gasoline has to use 15 percent ethanol.

All our great outboards, mowers, weedeaters, chainsaws, cars get gummed up by this crap.

Thus one is constantly doing carb rebuilds, starting mowers in winter to avoid the gum issues. Thus the ritual is we remove carb bowls, dump the bad gas on the grass, use all these nasty cleaners to remove the greenies beloved ethanol gas's crud.

To prevent fouling I start up and run stuff very month or so; to avoid rebuilds.

Thus from a small engine user; the ethanol boondoggle creates waste and pollutes. Ie the ethanol greenies cause more pollution via the mess it creates in 50 times more gumming and cleaning. Ie typical government program; drive up food prices via ethanol boondoggle, having the average Joe ruining his outboards with gum issues. having us run stuff just to prevent fouling. The dolts at government seem to have zero brains and did not figure how actual users have to create more wastefull starts to prevent their beloved ethanol from fouling everything.



Thus many of us try to use the hard to find non ethanol gas to avoid the massive constant degumming.
 
The government tax credit means if:

(1) Machine A has the tax break and sells for 600 bucks;

(2) Machine B that uses 5 percent more water and rinses 10 times better sells for 900 bucks. ie the extra 5 percent more water voided the tax credits

In a non government screwed up system both might sell for 900 bucks and item 2 is labeled as using 5 percent more water, but it rinses 10 times better and washes 1.5 time quicker.

Some folks would buy machine (2) since time matters and quality of results too; ie they they do not like designs steered by government specs that ruin performance.

Ie machine (2) uses 5 percent more water thus costs them 1 cent extra per load. If they wash 4 times a week , this has the greenies in tears since one pays 2 dollers per year extra in water. An actual non government worker might have to deal with time matters, they see the 2 dollar loss as little compared to the time saved. Thus they buy the washer the social engineers do not want you to buy!
 
Here is a funny thread to read in a link

"Its a unique feature of the USA that many inhabitants combine
everything - whites, colours, dirty nappies, delicates into their huge
top loading washing machine, add heaps of bleach and washing powder
then heat it to boiling for a couple of hours before spinning it to
within an inch of its life. Then they tumble dry the washing into
submission when they have a house on a 2 acre plot and outside its 80
deg C, with a gentle breeze and blue sky as far as you can see.

This explains why their clothes 'fade' and 'wear out' at fifty times
the rate in Europe and why they are constantly buying new clothes from
sweat ships in the far east and thereby sustaining their massive trade
deficit. European front loaders with their low temperature cycles and
powder formulations lead to very low levels of fade and fabric damage
using significantly less energy and water.

Not my words but essentially those of a Professor in fabric technology
at a UK university."

http:///264358-black-mould-washing-machine-door-seal-3.html
 
Now to shake things up a bit my sister has a Kenmore HE2T FL machine. She washes most everything in cold water, she uses liquid detergents by the cupful and tons of Downy in the machine. She never leaves the door open between uses (her cats will use it as a litter box). Her machine does not smell at all. She has never had a breakdown in the five years she's had the machine.

Go Figure!
 
LOL...that desription of american washing in reply #74 is actually accurate
in many cases-except for the boiling part and the 50x wear rate part...
 
SMELLY WASHERS

Allen this just goes to prove my point, you will never have a smelly washer, any type of buildup or spider corrosion from using too much detergent. Its using too little that causes almost all these problems. I have just a little bit of experience with washers and what goes wrong with them from working on over 30,000 TL & FL machines over the last 40 years and interviewing the users about the problems and finding solutions for them.
 
About Post #74

What era is this professor speaking about?

American housewives by and large stopped boiling laundry years ago. Hot water supplied via taps is going to be between 120F or perhaps 160F (back in the day, but rarely today). So his comment about high temperature washing is just flat out wrong.

As for long cycles, American top loading washing machines complete (the real ones, not those being sold today), finished a load on "Normal" in about 30mins at their longest cycle (about 14mins of washing), so again not sure where the man gets his "hours" of washing time from.
 
Spider Corrosion And Foul Odours

COMBO52
I don’t know if anyone else except me does the maths on your claims of experience but 30, 000 over 40 years equates to 750 per year. That equates to just over 2 for every day of the year. Take out the weekends (104 days) and this increases the daily rate to 2.87 per day, take out 10 days per year for annual holidays (we have already deducted the weekends) and the daily rate increases to just under 3 per day, take out another 4 days for statutory holidays and the rate increases to fractionally over 3 per day. That averages, for an 8 hour day, to 2 hours 40 minutes per appliance, not an impossible number I agree but when one considers that this may include traveling time it becomes a little more questionable as to what you actually ‘do’, just a brief consultation, very possible but major repairs very questionable. A combination of ‘brief consultation’, ‘quick diagnosis’ and some repair work (or even supervision of repair work) and it becomes a more realistic number.
In some of your other posts you have claimed experience on over 2,000 units per year. At 2,000 per year, assuming the same deductions as above, this reduces the average time per appliance to just one hour, again not out of the realms of possibility but again taking into account ‘traveling time’ not very long for actual diagnostic work and rectification.
In some of your other posts you have made the claim that corrosion of the spiders could be caused by use of too little detergent but have so far failed to answer my query(ies) as to how this occurs. I therefore repeat he question.
‘How does using to little detergent cause corrosion of the aluminium spiders?’
I look forward to your response.
 
@limey I believe it was combo that said that powdered detergents contained protecting elements and not using enough robbed you of that protection. In addition not using enough detergent could lead to build up of foreign matter because instead of seperating and suspension it coats the tub. Doesn't that sound similar to your theory of outside the safe pH range dry out?

If I got that wrong I apologize combo. I've lurked here for years and the discussions blur together.

Limey while your theories make sense and your attempts haven't really got the response they deserve (I've read about your letters and phonecalls to and meetings with manufacturers) why go to town on a person's experience and their livelyhood? It's readily apparent that this issue is important to you but doing the math using a formula that reduces an appliances repaired to in home only seems like a strawman argument. Add a couple of institutional/manufactuer clients/employers and that number is more than reachable in 40 years.
 
Re UK profs joke blurb and little soap usage causing mold

Chestermikeuk : I saw your comment before you deleted it in Reply #75.

The UK Professor's/comedian's? blurb probably was more of a nice joke than serious. I got a good laugh, thus I posted it and the link. It just was posted as an interesting comment; not to cause a USA versus UK fight as you commented to me. The blurb has so many errors that it is hard to see how somebody would take it as real. ie the weather in the USA is never 80C, and thus since it was made by a so called professor it points to a spoof/joke since one has such a grave error. References to boiling water sounds almost pre 1900 too.

Too All; here my take maybe more in line with Ronhic's; is that excessive usage of detergents WORSENS issues with mold in a washer that is less robust.

The lack of usage of detergent causing mold issues makes no sense to me, since here I have used FL washers now for a 1/2 century and ALWAYS use the minimum soap required to due the job at hand.
 
Aluminum and detergent....

Take a look at what's been happening with automotive antifreezes.

Older formulations contained silicates and phosphates (simple phosphate, not complex like STPP). Both acted to protect aluminum components, as well as brass and other metals.

Along came the "extended life" antifreeze that substituted organics for the inorganic protective agents. These had problems with the lead solder in older brass radiators, leaching out the lead. So some mfgs produce a hybrid antifreeze with silicates added back in to help protect aluminum and brass.

1) Not all powdered detergents in the USA contain zeolites. In fact just a minority, if any, do.

2) The main water softener in US powders is washing soda, sodium carbonate. However virtually all US powders also contain sodium silicate, which helps to protect washer parts including aluminum.

3) As far as I know, aluminum is most susceptible to attack by acids, and also by very strong bases, such as sodium hydroxide (lye). Washing soda is not basic or strong enough to cause a problem, esp. in a detergent that also contains sodium silicate.

4) There are many different types of aluminum alloys, some far more resistant to corrosion than others. For example, the original aircraft alloy was duralumin, which was a 2000 series alloyed with copper, today refered to as 2024. It is strong, but the copper content makes it susceptible to corrosion. To combat this, a layer of pure aluminum is often used to coat the 2024, the resulting product is called alclad (perhaps where the cookware got its name as well...). Duralumin isn't used as much today in aircraft as 7075, which is alloyed with zinc, and much more corrosion resistant as well as being more machinable and stronger.

5) In any case, without knowing what kind of aluminum alloy is used, it is difficult to predict how a part will perform in a potentially corrosive environment. Modern washers SHOULD be using corrosion resistant aluminum alloys for any parts that might be subjected to the wash water. It only makes sense.

6) Failures of aluminum spiders in washers is most likely caused by poor castings with porous crevices. That is, the parts are defective from the factory. As an example, my Neptune 7500 developed a crack in the spider after about 3 years of service. It was replace under warranty. The new spider looked different and the repair guy said it had been improved - perhaps due to these casting problems. The washer has performed flawlessly since then, for more than seven years, no more spider cracking issues (the main symptom of which was a slight grinding or buzzing noise when the drum reversed tumbling with a heavy load of towels). And I use mostly wash powders, albeit boosted with phosphate (STPP).
 
Aluminum Spiders in the USA are usually CAST Aluminums

The Aluminums you mentioned 2024 and 7075 are not cast Aluminums; they are sheet or plate grades of Aluminum. 2024 before WW2 was called 24S. Submarines of Germany in WW1 were Aluminum, the museium in Munich has a WW1 Aluminum submarine.

Aluminums on spiders are castings in machines sold in USA FL washers.

The cast Aluminum is probably just dumb 380 or 386 cast Aluminum if die cast; or 356 Aluminum if sand cast.

As you already mentioned, casting porosity is a huge issue.

Any porosity adds gobs more surface area; and provides a rich area to trap water and chemicals that cause corrosion.

Usage of Aluminum in a washing machine really points to very poor careless engineering, more of a beginners mistake. Spiders that are space age and thin with gobs of surface area point to a design for stiffness, one designed for maximum surface area to corrode quickly. The whole design points to newbie, greenhorn, or an old fart who really does not give a damn about corrosion. Connections with two different materials and getting corrosion was understood 2 thousand years ago, ie the Romans. Thus the Aluminum spider on a Stainless drum is too a retarded poor design, one with a spider that is less Noble and dissolves with time. If this was just 1995 one could say their were just a few newbies. But the same basic flawed design gets copied, Beavis copying Butthead's bad design.
 
Number Of Appliances Serviced

To COMBO52,
Thank you for your response.
Should you have been solely, or almost solely, employed in reassembly the numbers quoted above are, in my view, entirely ‘doable’ particularly should you be employed, or largely employed, in a workshop, or even, as pingmeep states below, with clients at institutions or industrial installations, although I would have expected these type of clients to be using the much larger ‘industrial machines’.
As for my qualifications for taking part in this discussion, I am, as I have stated in thread 29110, post #447030, a very teed off consumer. The initial cause of my discontent was the policy of Sears/Frigidaire/Electrolux on the supply of spare parts, the more I discovered the more discontented I became.
By the way I note that you have considerably revised your experience numbers above, from those quoted in post #446219 in thread 29110 (over 60,000 total and 3,000 plus per year ) which is correct?
 

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