FL WASHERS and BAD MOLD SMELLS; when did you 1st hear about this issue?

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support AutomaticWasher.org:

To pingmeep
Thank you for your input.
I believe I have seen two posts, on different sites, concerning inhibitors being present in detergents. The subject did not come up in my conversation with P&G re ‘Tide’. Should detergent manufacturers’ be including it/them in their products I would expect them to be listed in the MSDS for the detergent concerned. I do not recollect seeing any listed in any MSDS I have seen, that is not to say no manufacturer lists them, just that I do not recollect seeing any. Whirlpool do list ‘Boric Acid’ in the MSDS for ‘Affresh’, as far as I am aware (I do not have independent verifiable evidence), ‘Boric Acid’ is used in detergents as an enzyme stabiliser, but that is about as close as I can come to inhibitors.
I do not recollect, but could be in error, seeing that statement from Combo52, or anyone else. Incorrect dosing of an inhibitor, however administered, would likely, I feel, lead to a reduction of protection. However a blanket statement that insufficient detergent leads to spider corrosion I feel, requires some explanation.
Thank you for your support, however lukewarm, it is appreciated. However Combo52 has disputed many of my statements, some with statements that are blatantly untrue and has failed to give me any corroborating, verifiable evidence, of the source of his information for others. For examples please see thread 29110. He appears to think that just because he makes a statement it is true regardless of evidence to the contrary, and I do not believe that an attitude like that should be allowed to continue unchecked Just for the record I am likely just as bad as he at heart, in that repect. However as I spent a good portion of my working life having to justify my position to sceptics of one sort or another I am therefore very careful as to what I state as a fact and what I state as a thought. I still do not always ‘get it right’ either.
 
Aluminum and detergent

To sudsmaster,
Thank you for your input.
In response to your item 3). In this regard all I can do is refer you to a sample MSDS for sodium carbonate, in this case anhydrous, at: -
http://www.hillbrothers.com/msds/pdf/n/soda-ash-lite-100.pdf
which shows that, at Page 5, Section 9, for a 1% solution it has a pH of 11.4 (over 100 times more alkaline than the maximum safe pH level (9.0) for any aluminium alloy. It must also be remembered that it is not the pH level of any particular constituent of an aqueous solution that determines its ability to corrode aluminium but the pH level of the solution overall. In this case I can only refer you to the MSDS for one of the powdered ‘Tides’ at : -
http://www.pg.com/productsafety/msd...rgents/Tide_HE_Granular_Laundry_Detergent.pdf
which, on page 4, give a pH value of 10-11.5 with a 1% solution.
Interestingly this specimen also lists amongst its constituents, Silicate at 3-7% and Zeolite as 10-30%.
As for aluminium being more readily corroded by acids than bases I can only offer the following. The engineering and scientific community at large appear to generally accept that corrosion of aluminium commences when it is in an aqueous solution with a pH above about 8.0 or below about 4.0. Now as the pH scale is logarithmic, to the base 10, this means that at a pH level of 8.0 the concentration of hydroxide ions is 100 in 10,000,000 whereas with a pH level of 4.0 the concentration of hydrogen ions is 1,000 per 10,000,000. Therefore it would appear that for a given alloy corrosion due to alkalis occurs at a lower concentration than for acids.
With respect to your items 4), 5) and 6) I can offer little comment except that we are unlikely to be advised of the actual composition of the alloy that is used for the spider. I agree that the actual composition of the alloy will affect the rate at which corrosion occurs, given identical aqueous solution.
 
Aluminium Castings and Corrosion

To 3beltwesty.
Thank you for your comments.
On none of the four spiders I have physically seen has there been any sign of surface breaking porosity. I appreciate that this number does not mean very much it is just a personal observation. Further they appear to have been die cast.
One point I do disagree on is the basic cause of the corrosion of these spiders. For it to be galvanic the majority of the corrosion would be at or very close to the junction of the two materials, i.e. at the end of the spider arms. I have seen no photographs of failed spiders where this is the case, nor have I seen any written description of failures in this area. There is a very good paper on galvanic corrosion at: -
http://www.unene.ca/un1001/UN1001_Galvanic Corrosion.ppt
In addition to showing how galvanic corrosion does occur it also explains why those although stainless steel is nobler than aluminium it does not easily supply the required electrical connection. As a point of interest mild steel, the material of the spider shaft is nobler than stainless steel.
 
Corrosion of Aluminium

To sudsman.
One point I omitted earlier is that nitric acid is a well known exception to acids that cause corrosion. Apparently the salt(s) formed initially prevent further corrosion. Somewhat similar to the naturally occuring oxide coat that forms in air.
Sorry I missed that out earlier.
 
If the aluminum spider is such a problem, why don't the manufacturers just make it out of steel?  Or even a sturdy plastic?  Is there some reason why it has to be aluminum?  Oh, I don't think plastic will cause problem with odor here because the spider is in motion would shed the moisture

 

I still think the use of in the outer tub and in the case of the Neptune, that case that contains the water hoses is the cause of the odor.  I also notice the plastic is rather rough, which must provide a place for mold to grow.  Why could it not be smooth like Tupperware is?  You will notice, water beads up on Tupperware and does not stay around.

 

If aluminum spiders are such a problem, I would think Alcoa research would have come up with a solution by now.

 

Meanwhile, I am worried about something else that might grow mold.  Today's airliners are made of aluminum and the air inside is dry to prevent corrosion.  But the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner is made of "composite" (AKA Plastic) and Boeing claims that the air can be kept more humid and there is more pressure inside, which I guess helps people with respiratory problems.  Are we going to see reports in the future about "moldliners"?

 

Rich are you referring to Dexcool?  It is a disaster!  We have a Buick Century where we had to have all the hoses and radiator replaced because the Dexcool turned into a gel (just like when you leave Metamucil in the glass too long).  We followed directions exactly and that still happened.  Dexcool may have been one reason for GM going bankrupt.

 

Oh, one other thing, isn't boric acid rather corrosive?  Didn't we almost have another nuclear accident because of boric acid almost corroding a hole in a nuclear power plant?

 
 
Limey;

Re "One point I do disagree on is the basic cause of the corrosion of these spiders. For it to be galvanic the majority of the corrosion would be at or very close to the junction of the two materials, i.e. at the end of the spider arms. I have seen no photographs of failed spiders where this is the case, nor have I seen any written description of failures in this area. "

The spider and drum do NOT go completely underwater like not a Boat's propeller, the spin basket's shaft is above the water level on my old 1976 westy too. With a modern front loader; the water level often just touches the spin basket.

Thus from a galvanic corrosion issue; the shafts to spider junction area is above the water level always by design in any front loader washer of any era.

It is the end arms to basket junction that sees water exposure the most, plus it has the highest velocity to have its water shed off compared to the inter shaft area.

The web is full of aluminum spiders that are all corroded and were folks washers have broken. There are posts and images that go back for a decade. The whole issue of Aluminum spiders breaking due to corrosion has documented failures even before 2000, thus to me it is criminal that the engineers design in such a poor design.

Aluminum is not the proper material to use in a washer, folks did not do this 1/2 century ago. Engineers then had pride in creating a good design.

An engineer from Mars could arrive tomorrow, 2005,or 2000 and Google "washer problems" and find failed Front loaders and bad aluminum spiders. If he had a gram of integrity he would not use Aluminum, or make the design more robust with a spider with less surface area, ie thicker dumb.

An engineer 100 years ago knew that one wanted raw thickness in areas were one has corrosion. Folks knew this 3000 years ago, thicker items last longer around corrosion. Folks knew this 10.000 years ago with fence posts, a thicker post lasts longer when in the ground.

The aluminum spider and stainless basket are not so simple as battery plates in a solution for galvanic corrosion. The assembly sees a complex environment, thus folks simple models do not fit. The spiders end arms see more water, but also see a higher acceleration to shed water.

(1) Aluminum is poor for fatigue life, a cyclic failure where stress varies.

(2)Cast materials have high spreads in fatigue failures due to casting finish and porosity.

(3) Spiders that are space age CAD designed for strength and have thin webs are poor in a corrosive environment. A Roman engineer knew this, but would go to the gallows for such bad infraction. An engineering book from 100 years ago on design around corrosion areas clearly mentions corrosion as being mills/year, mm/year and stresses one wants thick members to have parts last longer. The thin Aluminum spider is a great design to spin in air, but poor around a corrosive laundry wash area. A Miele spider is Steel,and is a simple rectangular shape to have the least surface area and decent thickness.

Most new front loaders sold in the USA today have a design that has many design flaws:

(a)Aluminum in wash area

(b)Dissimilar metals bonded together in a corrosive environment

(c)Cast materials in corrosive environment.

(d)Thin sections of metals that corrode in a corrosive environment

Design Flaws of a to d create a washer designed to fail with time and wash cycles, a marketers DREAM COME TRUE!
 
Spiders are CAST Aluminum to cost little, ie be cheap

One can buy a die cast LG spider and shaft brand new on Ebay for about 75 with freight. A global web search has a guy in the Midwest selling them for about 45 bucks.

The spider and shaft probably cost about 10 bucks to make in Korea.

Making the Y shaped spider a solid chunk of steel rectangles with a welding in shaft and machined true would cost a lot more, maybe 30 to 50 bucks ? ? ? each thus makers would have to charge maybe 100 + bucks more per washer
 
Response to neptunebob

Thank you for your input.
‘If the aluminum spider is such a problem, why don't the manufacturers just make it out of steel? Or even a sturdy plastic? Is there some reason why it has to be aluminum? Oh, I don't think plastic will cause problem with odor here because the spider is in motion would shed the moisture’
Good question, my opinion, the almighty dollar, it is the cheapest way to make anything that comes close to being ‘acceptable’ but, again in my opinion, fails miserably.
Although the spider is in motion this does not mean that it will automatically shed all the ‘water’ from all areas. It is my considered opinion that even at the fastest spin speeds in front load washers there are areas of the spider where the speed of rotation is insufficient to cause sufficient centrifugal force to be generated to ‘throw’ the ‘water’ off. These areas are the shaft and the hub of the spider. As an example, my Frigidaire built ‘Kenmore’ at approximately 1,000 rev/min has the outer rim of the inner drum traveling at approximately 60 miles/hour whereas, at the same rotational speed, the outer edge of the recesses in the spider hub are only travelling at approximately 6 miles/hour. You may have noticed a similar thing with the beaters on kitchen mixers, the ‘mix, sticks to the shaft but is thrown off the arms of the beaters.
‘If aluminum spiders are such a problem, I would think Alcoa research would have come up with a solution by now.’
Maybe they have but its implementation would almost certainly cost dollars and therefore cut into the bottom line or increase the cost of the appliance. Another detrimental effect of corrective action, in my opinion, and the bean counters really would not like this, it would reduce the number of overpriced spares ‘they’ could sell and also reduce the number of new machines required by the consumers as their older ones would last longer. ‘Got to create the market’.

‘Meanwhile, I am worried about something else that might grow mold. Today's airliners are made of aluminum and the air inside is dry to prevent corrosion. But the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner is made of "composite" (AKA Plastic) and Boeing claims that the air can be kept more humid and there is more pressure inside, which I guess helps people with respiratory problems. Are we going to see reports in the future about "moldliners"?’
On that one your guess is as good as, and likely better than, mine.
‘Oh, one other thing, isn't boric acid rather corrosive?’
My information, gleaned by perusing various MSDS’s for Boric Acid via internet searches is that in the case of very high concentrations its pH level will drop below 4.0 and it could therefore possibly be corrosive to some aluminium alloys. One MSDS at: -
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/b3696.htm
notes that if water is present it can be corrosive to iron.
Hope this helps.
 
ALUMINUM WASHER PARTS

3bw and others 90% of all automatic washers ever made have critical parts made of aluminum that are exposed to water. This includes all MTs all WPs both BD & DD all Norges all GEs & Hotpionts etc etc in fact one of the few washers that did not have major aluminum parts were the FL westinghouses and yet they were widely considered one of the most unreliable automatic washers anyway.

 

These aluminum parts including the spiders in newer FL washers do not fail very often, and 95% of spider failures we have seen in recent years failed because of poor usage habits by the machines user. I have yet to be surprised when we see a broken spider the machine usually stinks and has been used with cold water and way too little and or cheap detergents.

 

Limey your comments about the numbers of machines I have worked on are taken out of context. I said in an earlier post that I have have worked on over 60,000 appliances and more recently I said I have worked on more than 30,000 automatic washers. Both of these statements are conservative and correct. In all your posts you have yet to bring any information to this site that is the least bit useful to helping me or probably anyone else fix or diagnose any appliance problems.
 
you must sell fl washers; if you defend such poor choice of

Re "FL westinghouses and yet they were widely considered one of the most unreliable automatic washers anyway."

The FL 1947 westy lasted until 1976; ie 31 years.

The FL 1976 Westy lasted until 2005 when a bearing failed; after 29 years

The FL 1976 got new bearings and a new seal in 2006 and was run until 2010; when I decided to replace its worn shaft last November

The web is full of modern FL washers with broken Aluminum spiders; were the entire washer has to be scrapped after 3 to 7 years

My take is you sell new washers; thus you defend crappy poor aluminum designs that fail.

Modern FL washers in the USA have a mess of complaints, lawsuits.
t
There are folks who have bought FL washers and they died early; and will NEVER buy one again.

The reason the old Westy's lasted so long is they had no aluminum; ie a crappy poor material to use in a washer
 
Response to 3beltwesty

To 3beltwesty.
Oh we agree on so much but differ, slightly, on some details.
‘The spider and drum do NOT go completely underwater like not a Boat's propeller, the spin basket's shaft is above the water level on my old 1976 westy too. With a modern front loader; the water level often just touches the spin basket.’ I agree.
‘It is the end arms to basket junction that sees water exposure the most, plus it has the highest velocity to have its water shed off compared to the inter shaft area.’ I agree but more on this later.
‘The web is full of aluminum spiders that are all corroded and were folks washers have broken. There are posts and images that go back for a decade. The whole issue of Aluminum spiders breaking due to corrosion has documented failures even before 2000, thus to me it is criminal that the engineers design in such a poor design.’ I generally agree but having worked as a development engineer in the dim past, please see thread 29110, Post# 446153 dated 2010-07-01, I cannot totally blame the engineers, they/we developed/researched/tested what our employers wanted.
‘Aluminum is not the proper material to use in a washer, folks did not do this 1/2 century ago. Engineers then had pride in creating a good design. ‘ I cannot totally agree with this, aluminum could be made ‘suitable’ or ‘proper’ with a suitable coating, used as it is with nothing more than the naturally occurring oxide coating is, in my opinion verging on the criminal. Again totally blaming the engineers I do not believe is fully justified for the reasons stated above.
‘An engineer from Mars could arrive tomorrow, 2005,or 2000 and Google "washer problems" and find failed Front loaders and bad aluminum spiders. If he had a gram of integrity he would not use Aluminum, or make the design more robust with a spider with less surface area, ie thicker dumb. ‘Generally agree but see above for defence of engineers in general, and in my case particularly British ones!
‘An engineer 100 years ago knew that one wanted raw thickness in areas were one has corrosion. Folks knew this 3000 years ago, thicker items last longer around corrosion. Folks knew this 10.000 years ago with fence posts, a thicker post lasts longer when in the ground.’ No argument from me on any point in that.
‘(1) Aluminum is poor for fatigue life, a cyclic failure where stress varies.
(2)Cast materials have high spreads in fatigue failures due to casting finish and porosity.
(3) Spiders that are space age CAD designed for strength and have thin webs are poor in a corrosive environment. A Roman engineer knew this, but would go to the gallows for such bad infraction. An engineering book from 100 years ago on design around corrosion areas clearly mentions corrosion as being mills/year, mm/year and stresses one wants thick members to have parts last longer. The thin Aluminum spider is a great design to spin in air, but poor around a corrosive laundry wash area. A Miele spider is Steel,and is a simple rectangular shape to have the least surface area and decent thickness.’ I generally agree but with the following comments.
1) The fatigue live of an aluminium component may be increased with ‘proper’ manufacturing techniques, should these already have been incorporated then you have to live with what you get or suffer the consequences, or alter the material.
2) From what I have seen of these spiders (I know that is not very much) they appear to be pressure die castings, now I know that when I retired 5.5 years ago pressure die-casting techniques had come a long way from the early days, surface finish and porosity were normally not an ongoing problem. I am unaware of developments since that time.
3) You and I both recently contributed to a thread concerning a Miele spider which I believe was a coated steel. This was from an older machine. I have seen two posts at least one of which is on this site where the poster has stated that Miele have informed them that the spiders are made of an aluminum alloy. I therefore believe that although Miele may have used steel spiders in the past they have ‘recently’ changed. Miele did not respond to my written query on this matter.
‘Most new front loaders sold in the USA today have a design that has many design flaws:
(a)Aluminum in wash area
(b)Dissimilar metals bonded together in a corrosive environment
(c)Cast materials in corrosive environment.
(d)Thin sections of metals that corrode in a corrosive environment
Design Flaws of a to d create a washer designed to fail with time and wash cycles, a marketers DREAM COME TRUE! ‘ Generally agree with the following comments;-
a) Would add ‘unprotected’ in front of ‘Aluminum’.
b) More on this later.
c) Again would add ‘unprotected’
d) Again would add ‘unprotected’ in front of ‘metals’.
Now onto the bits not dealt with above. All I believe are concerned with how galvanic corrosion works to a greater or lesser extent. I really wish I could induce you to read the paper on galvanic corrosion at: -
http://www.unene.ca/un1001/UN1001_Galvanic Corrosion.ppt
it explains so much, far better than I can. Additionally it explains, on page 36, why the aluminum adjacent to the stainless steel drum does not corrode even though the stainless steel is more noble than the aluminium.
Although I agree that galvanic corrosion can be complex it still does just come down to a simple cell. A good, one page, paper on this, which also deals with the corrosion of aluminium can be found at: -
http://www.sintef.no/static/mt/norlight/seminars/norlight2003/Postere/Gaute Svenningsen.pdf
I believe you may well find it interesting.
Even though the spider shaft is above the water level in FL washers the area up by the hub still gets wet, if it did not there would be no need for the seal between the tub and the bearings and the bearings would never fail due to water ingress. However water, and all its containments, does get to that area and as you have observed, correctly, I believe, the outer ends of the arms will move the fastest. Please see my post # 501726 above to neptunebob for the speeds I have calculated for my spider (I do not know the actual highest spin speed but as it is directly related to the linear velocity any transposing is easy enough). The linear speed of the shaft and hub I believe is insufficient to throw off the water, and its contaminants, from these areas resulting in the possibility of corrosion and/or build-up of smelly deposits.
Below I have included a photograph of the end of one arm from the spider removed from my Frigidaire built machine after 7.5 years of service. The other two arms were similar. You will note the build-up of the products of corrosion, heavily compressed by the restraining force of the drum. There was very little other corrosion at the end of the arm leading me to believe that this area also ‘holds’ contaminated water at the end of the spin cycle. I further believe that once the corrosion in this area reaches a certain level the products of corrosion form a barrier thus preventing or largely preventing further corrosion. Similarly there were products of corrosion in the holes for the setscrews securing the spider to the drum. These setscrews are ‘rounded triangular’ in section and therefore leave relatively large ‘holes’ in the holes; another spot for contaminated water to be held. Together with the recesses in the hub these could easily, I feel, be made into a case for ‘designed to fail’.

limey++3-6-2011-13-55-22.jpg
 
It really is more complex than a simple cell; since the items like the 201 stainless spin basket and cast aluminum spider are really justed wetted; ie not under water.

If one studies fence posts; a piers piles; the corrosion is most at the ground or water level, NOT far below or FAR above.

Aluminum and Magnesium are the far end of the Noblity table of metals. That is why they are poor choices around a corrosive area.

Two neighbors bought FL washers in the Fall of 2005 here post Katrina and have already had the units scrapped out due to corroded spiders; and the washers were just thrown away as fecal matter; ie junked since not cost effective.

Folks remember the dogma about FL saving water; but have that recent sour taste after scrapping that 700 to 1000 buck FL washer with a broken spider. ie the FL washer never paid for itself; thus they swear and buy a new top loader.

Many folks once "burned" by a short lived FL: washer often buy a TL washer' or another FL washer and just plan on it only lasting 3 to 5 years.
 
Reply to COMBO52

Thank you for your response and comments but you still have not answered the question: ‘How does too little detergent cause corrosion of the spider?’ You accuse me of not being helpful but I have now posed this question several times and not received an answer. Even ‘I don’t know’ would, in my opinion, be more helpful than just ignoring it.
I have attempted to explain how I believe corrosion of these spiders can occur, and how, in a like manner, one of the sources of the foul odours experienced with these machines occurs. Should you be unable to understand my reasoning, I regret that, but unless you tell me what you do not understand about my reasoning I cannot help you understand.

Thank you for clarify your experience numbers, I have to confess I missed the difference between ‘appliances’ and ‘washers TL & FL’, my apologies. Just for the record 3,000 plus appliances per year, using the limitations I outlined above, and you agreed to, gives an average time of less than 40 minutes per appliance.
 
Response to 3beltwesty

Thank you for your response.
Before we proceed any further I believe I should reiterate that I do not believe that the corrosion of the spiders is due to galvanic corrosion.
I agree, that should there be a galvanic reaction between the stainless steel and the aluminium alloy spider it would more complex than a simple cell. However even in complex reactions it really comes down to two, or more, reactions happening at the same time. Some of the reactions may be dependant on another reaction being completed, or in progress, before it/they can start.
I do not believe it makes much difference if a galvanic couple is totally immersed or ‘just wetted’. The essentials for a galvanic couple, as I understand it, are two materials (not necessarily metals, although they usually are), which have different electrical potentials when in contact with an electrolyte. The electrolyte has to be in contact with both materials.
One thing that did surprise me in the paper, I reference above is, ‘corrosion can occur without components of different metals actually being in electrical contact‘. I had always thought otherwise. However should they be in electrical contact the vast majority of the corrosion will take place at, or very close to that ‘electrical contact’.

With reference to your example of the fence posts or pier piles, I agree with you about the location of the maximum amount of corrosion but here we are not considering, I believe, galvanic corrosion, particularly with respect to the fence posts. The pier piles, if of steel, in seawater, yes, galvanic corrosion is a very real possibility.
 
Response to 3beltwesty

Thank you for your response.
Before we proceed any further I believe I should reiterate that I do not believe that the corrosion of the spiders is due to galvanic corrosion.
I agree, that should there be a galvanic reaction between the stainless steel and the aluminium alloy spider it would more complex than a simple cell. However even in complex reactions it really comes down to two, or more, reactions happening at the same time. Some of the reactions may be dependant on another reaction being completed, or in progress, before it/they can start.
I do not believe it makes much difference if a galvanic couple is totally immersed or ‘just wetted’. The essentials for a galvanic couple, as I understand it, are two materials (not necessarily metals, although they usually are), which have different electrical potentials when in contact with an electrolyte. The electrolyte has to be in contact with both materials.
One thing that did surprise me in the paper, I reference above is, ‘corrosion can occur without components of different metals actually being in electrical contact‘. I had always thought otherwise. However should they be in electrical contact the vast majority of the corrosion will take place at, or very close to that ‘electrical contact’.

With reference to your example of the fence posts or pier piles, I agree with you about the location of the maximum amount of corrosion but here we are not considering, I believe, galvanic corrosion, particularly with respect to the fence posts. The pier piles, if of steel, in seawater, yes, galvanic corrosion is a very real possibility.
 
REASON TOO LITTLE DETERGENT

causes corrosion. This is becasuse too little detergent allows MINERALS, DIRT and OILS to cling to all the parts of the washer that are exposed to water. When you get a buildup on the cast aluminum it keeps it wet all the time and corrision sets in and conintues un checked. This has been gone over many times on here by many different people, it's getting old. Do you want me to explain what detergent does?

 

Limey you need to prove your theories, instead of stirring the pot. I have the proof of thousands of washers that I have either seen fail or survive. Experience trumps theories.
 
COMBO52: RE "TOO LITTLE DETERGENT causes corrosion."

Basically this really makes no sense at all. Maybe it is you odd joke; your you have never used a FL washer?

Here my family has used front loaders since 1947 and one always has used the least amount of detergent required to the wash job.

Through out my entire life it is my experience that folks who grew up with top loaders tend to use GOBS of DETERGENT; so much that if they vist; the whole laundry room gets flooded.

*ALL* the "top load" folks who I know who got front loaders in America's 2nd FL wave post 1993 went through the learning curve of massive overuse of detergents; ie their brains wants to use that old 2 heaping cups of soap like it is still 1965.

I know friends who's wives still tend to use massive amounts of detergents with front loaders, theses are the machines I know that got broken spiders via corroded aluminum.

Thus here is it my experience here locally where friends and neighbors have FL washers with smells and broken spiders all were folks who tended to use GOBS of detergents; the exact opposite of your odd claim.

Do I have to explain that GOBS of detergent leaves leftover deposits too?

It is my experience that folks who use too my detergent have more problems with washer smells and broken spiders; not the opposite.

Maybe the exact opposite of viewpoints is due to water. Here the water is super soft. If somebody vists there is so much soap already in their unwashed clothes that one GETS SUDS without using ANY SOAP AT ALL! ie these folks are folks who use too much detergent; ie the average American
 
It is my experience that folks who use too MUCH detergent have more problems with washer smells and broken spiders; not the opposite.
 
It would be nice if owners of vintage combination washer/dryers would weigh in on the spider, and mold issues,  i know they  were very frugal with water (at least in the washing phase).  IIRC  detergents rec.  using 1/3 cup of detergent for a full load.  I think there were different designs, i remember Robert's post about that troublesome hose in his huge old vintage whirlpool, if i understood correctly as soon as the water sprayed in the drum it drained right back to the little tank with the "suds window". I thought it might add another dimension to the conversation, especially machines that are mostly used to wash and not dry.  alr2903
 
Reply to COMBO52

Thank you for your enlightening response, it seems quite plausible.
Certainly any laundry debris left around inside the washer and allowed to fester is eventually going to stink. Additionally the possibility is there that is festering mess will cause corrosion of anything it comes in contact with, provided, of course, it is corrosive to that substance, perhaps not immediately but as the concentration of the ‘mix’ you describe increases it might reach a point where corrosion of aluminum will occur. Are your aware of any studies, reports or anything else that can substantiate this corrosion theory?
 
Detergent Overdosing

To 3beltwesty.
On the subject of over dosing with detergent I believe this has been going on since the introduction of detergents for laundry. Previously, according to my parents and grandparents when soap was used the amount of ‘suds’ indicated the reserve of soap left.
Certainly back when I was a lad, after Adam and Nelson time, the standard test for boiler water hardness was the Wanklyn Standard Soap Test. This consisted of taking a measured sample of the water to be tested and adding Wanklyn’s Standard Soap solution until, after vigorous shaking, a lather was maintained for a specified time and noting how much ‘soap’ had been used to achieve this. Must be getting old, I cannot remember the numbers now.
I have heard from several sources that the suds one sees from detergents are ‘cosmetic’ and serve no purpose other than keeping the consumer happy. I know a lot of our friends and relatives still want to see ‘suds’ to know that the detergent is ‘working’. Trying to tell them is like ….well I leave it to you.
 
Spider Corrosion and Foul Smells

To COMBO52
As some time has now passed since I asked if you had any evidence to corroborate your theory regarding insufficient detergent causing corrosion of the alumininium alloy spiders and you have not responded I can only conclude one of two things, either: -
1. You have no such evidence
2. You have the evidence but are unwilling to share it.
In either event let us examine your theory, and my experience, limited though it may be and as you say, ‘Experience trumps theories’.
First I would refer you to my first post (#443313 in thread number 29110) on this site in which I said
“I believe the mechanics of the corrosion are as follows.
Even after the fastest spin small quantities of water will remain on the shaft and towards the centre of the spider. Any recesses in the spider close to the centre will aggravate this situation. This water will contain very, very small quantities of laundry aids used, soil from the laundry and chemicals from the ‘tap’ water. Should this water be allowed to stand the water will evaporate until such time as sufficient has gone to allow the pH of the remaining mixture to rise above the threshold at which corrosion will occur.
Additionally the retained water will quickly become foul smelling leading to, I believe, many of the complaints about mold and mildew.”
The difference between your theory and mine would therefore appear to be the fact that I believe unused laundry aids, please note the plural, would be present in the mixture left at the end of the last rinse cycle whereas, your theory would preclude any detergent being present. My ‘soil’ would, I believe, include your ‘MINERALS, DIRT and OILS’ so we appear to agree on that point. I fully agree with you any soil left anywhere in the machine will eventually start to smell.
In post #445529 in thread 29110 I enclosed a photograph which, for ease of reference, I will post here. This was removed from a 4.5 year old machine because of the smell and bearing failure.
In your post #446219 in thread 29110 you state, “Limey the corrosion on your spiders is more of a hard water build up from using to little detergent. Neither of the spiders you showed us have experienced any type of failure. Your machines had water seal failures which allowed water to ruin the bearings.” The spider shown below has no hard water build up just the smelly ‘crud’ about the hub, which was easily removed with a pressure washer. Incidentally there was no corrosion beneath the ‘crud’ only the very, very small marks seen as ‘white’ spots on the spider below. Neither was there any build-up of ‘crud’ anywhere else in the machine. As I said elsewhere in thread 29110 I do not know how you diagnosed seal failure on this machine, or why, there was no evident of seal failure and, more importantly to me, no evidence of water ingress into the bearing housing. Therefore I believe your diagnosis is incorrect on three points.
1. No seal failure.
2. As there was no crud anywhere else in the machine, other than the hub. You have stated in this thread, ``REASON TOO LITTLE DETERGENT causes corrosion. This is becasuse too little detergent allows MINERALS, DIRT and OILS to cling to all the parts of the washer that are exposed to water.``. Clearly, in this case, that theory is disproved.
3. There was no corrosion associated with the `crud`, so had the formation of the `crud` been due to `too little detergent`, according to your theory there should have been corrosion associated with the `crud`.
Now as to the sister-in-law who owns that machine using to little detergent, most unlikely, wants to see `suds`, too much detergent, in my view, highly likely. See my post 502189 in this thread above.
Do I believe your theory is totally without merit, most definitely not. However it does need more thought, and qualification of blanket statements. For example, too little detergent plus overdosing with liquid fabric softeners based on plants, and exclusive use of cold water could, I believe give rise to the conditions you have described, but for ‘crud’ and smell only, likely no corrosion. This scenario however, without further qualification, does not, in my opinion, give conditions to promote corrosion, an ingredient with sufficient alkalinity, or acidity, is required before chemical corrosion of the aluminum will occur.
Please note that in thread 29110 several posters seemed to forget that is not just bleach, but anything with the required acidity or alkalinity, that will cause corrion of the aluminium spiders.
I would appreciate your comments on this. Thank you.

limey++3-9-2011-16-43-4.jpg
 
Corrosion and Smells

To 3 beltwesty.
The last paragraph of your post #502126: -
‘Maybe the exact opposite of viewpoints is due to water. Here the water is super soft. If somebody vists there is so much soap already in their unwashed clothes that one GETS SUDS without using ANY SOAP AT ALL! ie these folks are folks who use too much detergent; ie the average American’
got me thinking.
I therefore offer the following as a discussion point and would welcome any comments, pro or con.
Sodium carbonate, washing soda, is present in all the powdered detergents that I have checked the MSDS for, also in the powdered ‘Oxi’ products and ‘Affresh’. Sodium carbonate is a ‘water softener’ it reacts with the hardness salts to form largely insoluble compounds. Now in ‘soft water’ there are very few ‘hardness salts’ and should a laundry aid containing sodium carbonate have been used there will likely be some excess sodium carbonate in the washing water, with nothing to do. This solution of sodium carbonate will not be completely removed from the laundry and thus the final rinse water will contain very small quantities of sodium carbonate. Small quantities of the final rinse water will be left in some areas of the machine (the recesses of the spider hub) and as the water evaporates the concentration of sodium carbonate increases to a point where corrosion of the aluminium can occur. This could also explain why some people believe water softeners cause corrosion of the spiders
 
Seal & Bearing Failure, Which Came First?

To COMBO52
I believe the photographs in this thread give sufficient evidence that there is a deposit on the spider and the centre area of the back of the drum. I further believe that using the dictionary definition of ‘mineral’ as ‘anything not animal or plant’ then these deposits are ‘mineral’. (Using that definition it could also be applied to the ’crud’ shown in the photographs of a machine I worked on shown in threads 29110 and 33198, therefore, my apologies for saying they were not ‘mineral’).
Now how have you deduced that the deposits in this Miele case are caused by too little detergent?
Bearing in mind your faulty diagnosis of seal failure leading to bearing failure in the case of the machine I worked on described in thread 29110. How have you deduced that in this Miele failure case the initial failure was by the seal and not the bearings? Quite honestly how can you be so adamant is beyond me.
I look forward to your comments
 
Europe's washers operate in a colder area than the USA&

It would be interesting to plot where folks live with FL washers that smell.

If one just looks at Latitude of Europes Folks versus the USA as a crude indicator of temperature, Europe is way farther north than the USA.

Switerland is about the same Latitude as Maine.

Sicily is about the same latitude as Washington DC.

Iraq is about the same latitude as me here in the USA ; about 30 degrees.

Rome is about roughly the same latitude as the middle of the USA.

Europe is a colder area than than much of the USA
 
Pscychrometric chart

RE "Good heavens! What nonsense! In a lot of European households the washing machine is in a heated area like a kitchen or a bathroom. "

Adding heat with a heater just drops the humidity.

If it is 10C and 50 % Relative Humidity outside and you use a heater; the same room when at 20C is now a dry 28 percent.

Heating moves horizontal on the chart.

Look at the VW Beatle car; cool Europe had little if any issues with the number 3 cylinder,and the damn things would burn up over here. Thus the "fix" was often retarding the number 3 cylinder, adding more blowers for cars run in hotter areas. The oil cooler is in the flow of cooling air to number 3. Folks in Europe can say the problem never existed. But they moved the oil cooler away from #3 due to complaints in NON European areas; ie where failures were a lot higher.

3beltwesty++3-10-2011-18-18-3.jpg
 
3beltwesty

What you said about the psychometric chart is 100% correct.
But you really should come over and tour Europe and see how cold/hot/humid it is...

It might be true that Rome is the same latitude as the middle of the USA but temperature never ever goes under 0°C (do the conversion yourself in °F) because of the sea, this is something that you forgot to take into account.

London is some 1500 km up north but its winters are milder than what I see in Bologna or a German sees in Munich because it is near the sea too. When in January here was 15°C, just like in Munich (wonderful place to spend Christmas BTW) in London it was 2°C, that's 17°C more...

Oh and again... just take a look at Maine/Switzerland weather again ;) even google does that now.

Please check what you say before posting as it might be grossly wrong. (no offense intended) ;)

And again for the n-th time, as Louis and others have pointed out, the vast majority of washers in Europe are in a heated environment. Even when people keep them in a separate laundry room it is usually heated as it usually is part of the main building.

dj-gabriele++3-11-2011-01-38-38.jpg.png
 

Similar threads

mysteryclock
New Washer Day this Thursday!
2
Replies
33
Views
522
combo52
combo52
panasonicvac
My Aunt's Washer and Dryer
Replies
1
Views
48
rp2813
rp2813
panasonicvac
My Parent's Washer and Dryer
Replies
2
Views
63
lakewebsterkid
L
C
Speed Queen the Only "Sane" Modern Washer Left?
2
Replies
56
Views
422
adam-aussie-vac
adam-aussie-vac
M
Speed Queen Front Load AFN50 Washer Review - Long Post
Replies
15
Views
472
jetcone
jetcone

Latest posts

Back
Top