dreamclean
Well-known member
Yeah, having a serious case of cognitive dissonance since I'm used being able to fix things. 
Follow-up on LG FL washer...a year later. SQ it is.
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dreamclean
Well-known member
*used to lol
I need a drink
I need a drink
dreamclean
Well-known member
It's all here. Hi All,
As promised, I have come to a resolution following hours of research, watching my washer run with a flashlight, and taking pages upon pages of notes. It's moved way beyond the personal realm-- these problems are more global in scope. I have tried my best to leave no stone unturned. First I'll start by ruling out the basic theories and then give you some real meat to sink your teeth into.
Quick recap: My LG FL washer has been pilling my clothes and it's worse the past few months, causing misshapen crew neck collars, and failing to remove some odors and grime.
Theory#1 : Underloading
From "Laundry, The Home Comforts Book of Caring for Clothes and Linens" by Cheryl Mendelson
Load size:
For optimal cleaning and a balanced machine, every load should be mixed with large and small items. At a minimum you should have what your machine designates as a small load. 
Overloading leads to far more damage, detergent build-up, unloosened soil and pilling. 
I have been well within the normal range for load size, according to both LG and Samsung for comparison. LG actually recommends Permanent Press, Delicates, and Handwashing specifically for small loads. I have always used Perm Press and mix both small and large items, similar fabrics. The machine has not shown signs of any trouble balancing when I observe the cycles. The Speed Wash setting is designed for 2-3 items but I don't use it. The purple shirt (attached) and two other items did not fully rinse even using a tiny amount of detergent so I have no plans to use it in the future either. Theory #2 Use more detergent or fabric softener, it lubricates
The problem with this is the small amount of detergent I am using (dropped from 2 tbsp to 1.5-2 tsp) isn't rinsing out. It's easy to test if you air dry various items and they are crunchy once dried. You probably won't notice if you put everything in the dryer because it softens the residue. I tried natural Ms. Meyers (crunchy), Persil Liquid (much crunchier) and Tide Powder (crunchiest). Trying different water temperatures and even adding an extra rinse or two made very little to no difference. Since I've used Ms. Meyers for so long I can attest to it's ability to leave the fibers more pliable and easier rinsing while the commercial brands are harder to rinse and really stiffen up garments. I actually found my whites turning grey after switching to Tide Free liquid for a short stint. Theory #3 LG machines don't add enough water at certain points in the cycle
I have observed items tumbling while covered in patchy bubbles of soap and still dry in most places. I can't imagine that a concentrated product sitting on top is very good for fabric undergoing friction or allows the soap to begin doing it's job. It makes sense to saturate the load with water first. I had also noticed soap suds at the beginning of the spin cycle. Some LG models actually have a "Water Plus" setting that adds a gallon to both the wash and rinse. Users of this feature commented that it had made a major difference in the overall cleanliness and rinsing ability. It would be nice if that were standard. LG told me that some models had recently had a problem with not enough water during certain cycles, but my model was not included in that bulletin. To increase water they recommended washing items on the Bulk Cycle, adding rinses or setting the soil level higher. I've had poor results even with multiple rinses. Even using the Bulk, after running three Tub Clean cycles, my pillow cases still air-dried stiff from residue but straight out of the wash everything felt and looked cleaner to me and there had been very few suds before spinning than in previous washes. It's really eye-opening to see tons of suds right before it goes into spin. Theory #4 Use hotter water to dissolve detergent and the fibers can flex better
I just can't. Most of my items are natural fibers labeled cold wash only. Even my 100% linen sheets are not supposed to be washed in anything but cold. Plus, the elastic on synthetics would get broken down very quickly. Supposedly the new detergents wash just as well in cold so that some retailers have changed their care instructions from warm to cold. Theory #5 Switch to powder, it cleans better
This is completely dependent on the type of soil you are dealing with. From "Home Comforts": Granular works better on mud and dirt stains because it uses "builders" for its power. Liquid detergents rely on surfactants and excel at organic stains like blood, gravy, and grass. Liquid detergents also dissolve more readily in cold water whereas powders, unless specially formulated, will not. Also, according to a textile scientist, liquids are better at removing body oils, fat and food stains. These are my main concerns. Powder is said to contribute to pilling in some cases. I also found that the Tide powder was the most difficult to rinse of any I tried and the Sears technician recommended liquid. Again, it depends on the type of soil you are dealing with. If I worked with cars or in landscaping, I would likely try something else. It's also really important, at least with LG, to pretreat odors and stains. I'm now using a pet enzyme spray for proteins (saw in an Amazon review), acidic water from my Kangen alkalizing water machine to spot kill odor-causing bacteria, and LA's Best Stain Remover Spray. Before I go any further, a few points should be addressed pertaining to the subjective nature of this topic. The first is that everyone has a different idea about what "clean" is. For some, it's the smell of Tide, dryer sheets, and no visible stains or dinginess for example. A lot of times it's connected to sensory impressions dating back to childhood. Some people have a poor sense of smell so they simply can't tell. If you don't have body odor that's half the battle. Our visual acuity and sense of smell can drastically decrease with age. It's also based on experience. Even if you can't see the remains of a stain, the proteins and oils could still be left on the fabric. So clean is a construct, based on perception-- it's psychological. While it's also true that "clean" in actuality smells like nothing at all.
Since none of us are conducting rigorous scientific tests on the machine's performance we can't say with any certainty that it cleans well-- it's more like "it cleans well enough". In the case of this washer, when put under the lens of scientific scrutiny it is rated above average but not excellent. The Sidekick fairs even poorer on Reviewed.com with stains like blood, sweat, and dirt frequently left behind while being gentler on clothing.
Reviewed.com Methodology : http://laundry.reviewed.com/how_we_test
And lastly, even if you've had no problems with your particular HE FL machine, there are still other variables at play besides what I've already mentioned. Your laundry itself could look very different than mine, from the fabrics to the type of soiling you experience. The technologies vary greatly. LG for example has the 6-Motion tumbling and Turbowash which reduces cycle time, which may or may not be more aggressive than similar processes in your washer. These machines are computerized, incredibly complex systems, so following the maxim "As above so below", the solution itself is an interconnected web of variables working harmoniously.
My own lint test seems to indicate that Turbowash is significantly harder on fabrics than a regular cycle, producing about 3+ times as much lint in the dryer for the same laundry. I have attached pictures of the end results of washing a teal linen coverlet and white linen sheets + cases on both settings. Linen is highly durable and not a textile known for linting. I can't be sure, but I think I might have deactivated Turbowash for the first several months of use just because I thought it sounded like an unnecessary and harsh setting. 
Moving on, let's talk about detergent. If you read other washer manuals you'll quickly find out that appliance and detergent manufacturers can't seem to agree on HOW MUCH TO USE. Detergent makers are certainly not going to tell you to use a minuscule amount because that's a conflict of interest, especially since HE detergent sales have been plummeting. A 20 year appliance veteran at Best Buy laughed and said NEVER follow the detergent instructions. GE's FL manual says to use the amount instructed on the detergent label. LG's official stance is to use half that. A Sears Technician told us LG recommends only 2 tablespoons per load. Their dispenser holds 5 to the line. A popular cleaning blog, "The Spruce" says to use only 2 tsp maximum per load. Throw into the mix the 3X, 8X, 10X concentrated (marketing gimmicks), natural detergents, and high viscosity detergents, and you have a logistical nightmare no one is even aware of. 
This is key: I was told by the Best Buy expert mentioned earlier that THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE FOR MACHINE FAILURE IS DETERGENT RESIDUE. When she worked for the repair department she saw how technicians would take apart the machines and they were filled with gunk in locations no one would ever expect, even the bearings. Basically anywhere susceptible to water would also be filled with detergent residue. 
LG said not only can residue in the tub (meaning on the other side, that you can't see or feel) throw off the sensors which makes balancing difficult but that can result in EXCESSIVE friction on the clothes. To further complicate matters cold washes could easily contribute to more machine residue. How many people are actually regularly running Tub Clean? My guess is, not many. I just had a friend come to visit and she has never run Tub Clean in 6+ years. Especially when units usually come with homes and Americans move frequently. Even if you DO read the manual, LG downplays it in my opinion by making it sound like it's only necessary if you use excess detergent, or have the unit located in a humid space (to prevent mold and mildew). While LG officially "recommends" it monthly, GE's manual makes it mandatory... "should be run at a minimum every month to control the rate of accumulation of soils and detergent." GE even has a 2X and 3X HE detergent setting in their dispenser tray on some models. For my own viscosity test I dipped my pinky finger into three different liquid detergents, rubbed my hands together vigorously and timed how long it took to wash them off. Ms. Meyers and Tide Free took only 7 secs to fully rinse off with no residue. Arm & Hammer came in second at 15, but left a patchy, sticky residue even after it dried. Persil took a good 30+ seconds and it never felt like it was fully rinsed, leaving an even nastier slick feeling dry. Taking into account the hardness or softness of water, this could vary somewhat. Obviously, the optimal amount of detergent is going to be relative to its viscosity and how concentrated it is-- that's going to have a huge impact on the amount of water needed, cleaning, and rinsability. Now we're getting into something about as abstract as derivatives to most people. I also read that these detergents are designed to soak or sit for a considerable amount of time. If you use a shorter cycle (like Turbowash) the results might be less than optimal. LG even points out in their manual that some detergents are difficult to dissolve or have high viscosity which will leave a residue on the tub and may not rinse properly. Well, how in the world is the average person going to know their detergent is "high viscosity"? The two industries really need to work together to fix a basic lack of communication on the issue.
To remove any build-up we ran Tub Clean three times with Affresh tablets like LG recommends. I'm sure that probably helped. It's only when I got the brand new Sidekick washing pedestal did I realize the detergent concentration/viscosity/lack of rinsing were the main culprits in pilling. It's a tale of two sweatshirts...
When we had the Sidekick installed by "Geeks" from Best Buy they reversed the hot and cold water hoses. So we had warm/hot-ish water running for both the wash and rinse cycle when it should have washed in warm and rinsed in cold. I did a full load with Persil, using 1 tsp LG advised (absolute max being 2 tsp). Despite the higher temperature which should have dissolved the soap, I was appalled that my cotton clothes were more pilled than ever. The Sidekick is also supposed to be gentler than the FL-- it uses 3-Motion technology as opposed to the 6, and the clothes sit in a few inches of water. One of the items I washed was a black cotton French terry sweatshirt. It's not something I wear often because I tend to wear the hoodie version by the same designer. When I pulled it out it was so visibly deteriorated my eyes nearly popped out of my head. It air-dried stiff as a board. I have attached pictures of both-- same age, fabric, but the hoodie in great condition had only ever been washed in Ms. Meyers on cold. When I had put the Persil on the load I remembered that it was like tar. It's no wonder it failed to wash out. I read one suggestion was to use a 1:3 ratio of detergent to warm water. When I asked LG if we could dilute the detergent in warm water before adding it to the dispenser, to my surprise, this was not recommended. Despite the fact that it's ok for LG users to mix 1 tsp detergent to 2 tsp bleach in the tray. Definitely worth trying nonetheless. 
And this is something the product reviewers are missing the boat on completely...Despite all their heavy handed scientific testing especially on stains, both Reviewed.com and Consumer Reports DO NOT HAVE A RINSE TEST. A CR author replied to a Facebook commentor who pointed this out at the end of her article saying "Good Point. We're working on developing a rinse test." That was March, and we've had these HE washers since 2010? In the real world in real time, poor rinsing translates to build-up on clothes and the machine, dinginess, damage to fibers and subsequent pilling. It's also a magnet for dirt. My sweatshirt and tees demonstrated an acceleration of that process. In all likelihood they aren't testing different detergents either, but relying exclusively on an industry standard, "AHAM HLW-2010 Formula III" or something similar.
The question for washer manufacturers is how much they prioritize thorough rinsing in their own labs. I'm sure they are much more concerned with energy standards. Returning to those water levels...I had never come across the idea that water levels could decrease over time until I read a Consumer Reports review on a Whirlpool. Apparently (at least for that model) the Clean Washer setting resets the water to "factory settings"...EVERY TIME. Attached a screen shot of that. So Whirlpool has deemed this enough of a problem to regularly reset the water. I found a similar reboot for LG online (another screenshot), but there is no mention of it in the manual and the rep could find nothing about that in his search. When I pressed LG about it, they denied that the water levels could change. Of course if the controls get glitchy why rule out that it could affect water levels? Since Best Buy is sending a tech out I'm going to see if he'll check that before resetting the machine.
And lastly, regarding the misshapen collars on crewnecks. It's not a fabrication issue, they are simply being stretched out in the washer. LG said it was partly due to agitation, but recommended using low spin. Another LG rep said it was caused by detergent residue or the sensors being thrown off resulting in excessive agitation. This is another problem which has gotten worse over time besides the pilling. Again, if I was in fact deactivating the default Turbowash setting the first several months which seems to be more aggressive in its agitation, that could explain a lot.
So far I haven't used the Sidekick much but I think with the right detergent it's going to do a pretty good job. When I've had stiff residue caked items from the FL go in the Sidekick to wash the residue (without any added soap) they come out softer. I believe the soaking plays a big part. I can also tell the clothes hold their shape better. I mainly bought it for delicate items anyway.
Overall, I still can't say I love these machines, but LG is still the best of the commercial brands. Maybe with some workarounds it will be doable. As for my experience with Best Buy for the Sidekick, and Sears for the FL, both have been great. If you're shopping around Best Buy will do a price matching with any retailer. Since their Geeks screwed up on the installation, we got a $100 gift card. They had already given us $40 for the Sidekick arriving with a small ding. To sweeten the deal, if their techs have to come out for repairs three times and the issue still isn't resolved, they will replace the appliance at no charge. They also ensure nothing goes into the landfill but is recycled instead.
I hope everyone benefits from this information, regardless of whether you have the problems mentioned. A regular Tub Clean and conservative amounts of detergent could greatly extend the life of your machine and keep your clothes in top condition. Taking a more scientific approach has turned an emotional roller coaster into something far more interesting and rewarding than I ever expected. At least it provides answers to one of the original questions on this thread--why performance varies so much from person to person, even among similar machines.
Sent from my iPhone
http://laundry.reviewed.com/how_we_test
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Consumer Reports Rinse Test (lack of...)
If that is indeed the case, then Consumer Reports have proven to be thoroughly incompetent.
The Which? Magazine reported that it tested rinsing by capturing the rinse water and measuring the detergent content of the captured water. Spin efficiency was measured by transferring the load to a commercial spin dryer spinning at 2800rpm and comparing the extracted amounts.
Apart from that, I do not know what to say. You seem to have tried virtually everything. Perhaps the next step is to jettison the LG machine(s), and try another brand.
If that is indeed the case, then Consumer Reports have proven to be thoroughly incompetent.
The Which? Magazine reported that it tested rinsing by capturing the rinse water and measuring the detergent content of the captured water. Spin efficiency was measured by transferring the load to a commercial spin dryer spinning at 2800rpm and comparing the extracted amounts.
Apart from that, I do not know what to say. You seem to have tried virtually everything. Perhaps the next step is to jettison the LG machine(s), and try another brand.
Yes, apparently you can't get the machine work for you in a way that it satisfy you. Perhaps indeed better to try something else.
One thing though. Washing linen sheets in only cold water? On this side of the pond linen sheets were always boil washed. If they can't handle warm water, you'd better sleep not between them too, they might shrink on the bed from the exposure to body temperature. IMHO, sheets need to be at least washed in warm water to remove body fat and odors thoroughly.
One thing though. Washing linen sheets in only cold water? On this side of the pond linen sheets were always boil washed. If they can't handle warm water, you'd better sleep not between them too, they might shrink on the bed from the exposure to body temperature. IMHO, sheets need to be at least washed in warm water to remove body fat and odors thoroughly.
dreamclean
Well-known member
I would agree that Consumer Reports and the like are incompetent, they have been steadily losing credibility over the years because of alleged biases...Utterly ridiculous to not test each cycle.
At this point I have too much money tied up in these machines and not enough confidence in any other brand. The absolute last thing available to me is to see if the water levels really have decreased over time and reset the controls, or rig the machine for higher water. I truly don't think my clothes were air drying to a crisp when I first started using it. There is one more tech coming over to check some things that could have gotten damaged during the Sidekick installation so I'll be ready with questions.
It's definitely a common complaint with these machines that they are failing to clean well or rinse soap adequately. And part of the problem is the variation in concentration and viscosity of the soap itself.
The instructions that came with my linen and other sources did say to wash in cold. According to Tricia Rose of www.roughlinen.com even though she uses cold, it is safe to boil wash linen. So I may very well try that for a change. It also gives me confidence that she uses Ms Meyers, and says to never to wash in Tide. She doesn't give a reason for that but I trust her judgement. Interestingly, she appears to have an LG. https://www.roughlinen.com/pages/care
http://https//www.roughlinen.com/pages/care
At this point I have too much money tied up in these machines and not enough confidence in any other brand. The absolute last thing available to me is to see if the water levels really have decreased over time and reset the controls, or rig the machine for higher water. I truly don't think my clothes were air drying to a crisp when I first started using it. There is one more tech coming over to check some things that could have gotten damaged during the Sidekick installation so I'll be ready with questions.
It's definitely a common complaint with these machines that they are failing to clean well or rinse soap adequately. And part of the problem is the variation in concentration and viscosity of the soap itself.
The instructions that came with my linen and other sources did say to wash in cold. According to Tricia Rose of www.roughlinen.com even though she uses cold, it is safe to boil wash linen. So I may very well try that for a change. It also gives me confidence that she uses Ms Meyers, and says to never to wash in Tide. She doesn't give a reason for that but I trust her judgement. Interestingly, she appears to have an LG. https://www.roughlinen.com/pages/care
http://https//www.roughlinen.com/pages/care
dreamclean
Well-known member
Elastic
It may be fine to boil wash linen sheets but the elastic on the fitted sheet will lose its properties and deteriorate...Washing separately a bit impractical.
It may be fine to boil wash linen sheets but the elastic on the fitted sheet will lose its properties and deteriorate...Washing separately a bit impractical.
One doesn't have to adhere to the cold and boiling extremes of the temperature scale. There's also warm (which tends to be akin to a summer swimming pool on these HE, dumbed-down washers nowadays) and hot (which is akin to what warm was in the olden days).
I recently bought an expensive 100% cotton mattress pad and set of sheets. The laundering instructions state wash in cold water. I refuse to do that. I have oily skin and hair and my head sometimes sweats during sleep. I've found that washing sheets and pillow cases at less than a "strong warm" temperature (112°F+) causes discoloration/yellowing/darkening due to unshifted oils and sebum. I contacted the vendor of the sheets. Their reply: "For the care instructions, it is recommended to wash them as instructed for the longevity of the sheets and mattress pad. However, you are welcome to wash your sheets to your preference." I've been washing them to "my preference" and have not observed any ill effects.
dreamclean
Well-known member
Yes, I'm well aware of the option to wash in warm for linen even if I didn't expressly state that. I would hope that it's a little more obvious based on the sheer complexity of this topic and as much as I've put into it that I can think outside the box and its simplistic binaries. And again, the new detergents are widely said to work just as well in cold which is why Coyuchi (a natural bedding retailer) for one has changed their care instructions. https://www.coyuchi.com/the-naturalista/cold_water/
The linen is the least of my concerns for now. It tends to repel all manner of ills from stains to body oil on its own. It isn't prone to pilling but it's evident from the lint collection pictures that Turbowash has been causing uneccessary breakdown of the fabric.
For my main concerns, right now my critical eye is turned on the detergents themselves. Most are too harsh and cause the fibers to dry out. This is going to naturally increase the friction that leads to more pilling. Failure to rinse compounds the issue. I think the detergent makers focus too much on stains rather than rinsing ability. I may have found a detergent in the US that could solve a lot of these problems. It's formulated to rinse completely and prevent the fibers from drying out. I just bought it on Amazon, it's called Heritage Park and it has very good reviews.
"Heritage Park Fine Fabric Wash is the ultimate laundry detergent to effectively remove tough stains and gently preserve fine luxury fabrics for years to come. Harsh detergents weaken fabric thread fibers, causing them to look dull. This leads to damaging holes, rips or pilling to develop. This highly concentrated, specialized solution preserves and gently cleans all laundered luxuries while preserving the fine thread fibers, making them look and feel beautiful."
http:// https://www.coyuchi.com/the-naturalista/cold_water/
The linen is the least of my concerns for now. It tends to repel all manner of ills from stains to body oil on its own. It isn't prone to pilling but it's evident from the lint collection pictures that Turbowash has been causing uneccessary breakdown of the fabric.
For my main concerns, right now my critical eye is turned on the detergents themselves. Most are too harsh and cause the fibers to dry out. This is going to naturally increase the friction that leads to more pilling. Failure to rinse compounds the issue. I think the detergent makers focus too much on stains rather than rinsing ability. I may have found a detergent in the US that could solve a lot of these problems. It's formulated to rinse completely and prevent the fibers from drying out. I just bought it on Amazon, it's called Heritage Park and it has very good reviews.
"Heritage Park Fine Fabric Wash is the ultimate laundry detergent to effectively remove tough stains and gently preserve fine luxury fabrics for years to come. Harsh detergents weaken fabric thread fibers, causing them to look dull. This leads to damaging holes, rips or pilling to develop. This highly concentrated, specialized solution preserves and gently cleans all laundered luxuries while preserving the fine thread fibers, making them look and feel beautiful."
http:// https://www.coyuchi.com/the-naturalista/cold_water/
dreamclean
Well-known member
And sorry if I sounded overly defensive but these problems are so much bigger than me. That's one reason I put so much time into this because I'm trying to get the the core of the problem for everybody. I've read the complaints of so many people spending a lot of their precious time doing laundry and troubleshooting instead of living life. Or they're replacing machines that couldn't get the job done when it could have been their detergent all along. It's a combination of factors and there is room for improvement across industries. Just bumping up the water levels could probably help a lot. And reformulating the detergents to be more compatible/effective with low water, not just to reduce suds.
Very Interesting Discussion
I'm sorry you've been having problems with your LG's. I wish I could offer you some creative solutions but you seem to have really thought of every variable.
I'm actually the guy (David Lee) that asked Consumer Reports to start testing rinsing performance of washers and have been eagerly awaiting them to post results. Frankly I'm surprised this hasn't been part of normal testing for both washing machines and detergents. These new washers use less and less water and many don't even spin between rinses, how can they expect laundry to be rinsed properly? And detergents seem harder to rinse out, especially Persil.
I'm sorry you've been having problems with your LG's. I wish I could offer you some creative solutions but you seem to have really thought of every variable.
I'm actually the guy (David Lee) that asked Consumer Reports to start testing rinsing performance of washers and have been eagerly awaiting them to post results. Frankly I'm surprised this hasn't been part of normal testing for both washing machines and detergents. These new washers use less and less water and many don't even spin between rinses, how can they expect laundry to be rinsed properly? And detergents seem harder to rinse out, especially Persil.
Got to say my experience is vastly different than yours... Sheets - hot water -- I have some sheets that are many many years old and the elastic is fine. Towels hot too- no issues, the rest warm. My water is hot 150+. I modified my Duet to use hotter water too. I never bother reading care labels, if something can't handle my laundry methods and it self destructs I don't need it. Can't say that has ever happened.
Tide pods or powder are my only detergents, with a bit of oxygen bleach when needed. I also use a tiny bit of Downey. All laundry is done in a couple of Duets. I only dry towels, sheets and such. Shirts, Jeans and such are hung to dry.
I do not discount your issues, you have given us photographic evidence, I just don't understand why it's happening. I wonder if it has something to do with your water. Here I get great Great Lakes water- mine is from Lake Huron. Does your municipality add too much chlorine to the water? Other chemicals?
Keep us posted on the ongoing saga, love to know what is causing your issues...
Tide pods or powder are my only detergents, with a bit of oxygen bleach when needed. I also use a tiny bit of Downey. All laundry is done in a couple of Duets. I only dry towels, sheets and such. Shirts, Jeans and such are hung to dry.
I do not discount your issues, you have given us photographic evidence, I just don't understand why it's happening. I wonder if it has something to do with your water. Here I get great Great Lakes water- mine is from Lake Huron. Does your municipality add too much chlorine to the water? Other chemicals?
Keep us posted on the ongoing saga, love to know what is causing your issues...
brucelucenta
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2013
- Messages
- 1,924
I have had my LG made machine for over 4 years now. I replaced a 1998 or so Maytag set with them. I really can't say I've had any problems with laundering anything. It did take getting used to, since it was a completely different kind of washer and takes at least 3 or 4 times longer than the Maytag did for a load of clothes. But the load is much bigger and I can use the steam treat option to nearly boil greasy or really dirty items, which I frequently do with sheets, towels and whites. I have not had any pilling that I can see now and with a top load washer I did have some pilling of wool socks and such. I think that load separation has much to do with pilling too. I seem to have less wear on my clothes caused by the washer now too. How much wear can you cause by tumbling anyway? I just really haven't had a problem and have been quite happy with this set. Fast as the washer spins, it takes little time in the dryer now. The only thing I sort of wish I had on this machine is a slightly higher water level. I know I could change it to be higher, but it is stacked and I would have to have help removing the dryer long enough to adjust the water level control, so I have left it alone. If I really need a higher level, I just use the Bulky/Bedding setting and after the cycle, spin it on the highest speed to remove as much water as possible.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Care Labels on garments
Those have been dumbed-down too!
Recently, I purchased a few cheap cotton towels. White, I might add.
The labels on those towels says temperature of 40 deg C, with a 'broken bar' underneath the wash-tub symbol, equating to the Woollens programme! There is hardly any agitation on that cycle. No way will I be doing that.
I can remember when Horrockses towels and Marks & Spencer towels had 'washcode 2 (cottons), at 60 deg C'.
My parents's current Christy towels have labels stating wash as Cottons at 40 deg C.
So, no - take modern labelling with a shovelful of salt. I'll continue to wash cotton towels as you would expect to wash cottons - on the Cottons programme which has normal agitation.
And I admit, with a decent powder detergent, it is perfectly possible to wash at 40 deg C and still end up with clean clothing.
Those have been dumbed-down too!
Recently, I purchased a few cheap cotton towels. White, I might add.
The labels on those towels says temperature of 40 deg C, with a 'broken bar' underneath the wash-tub symbol, equating to the Woollens programme! There is hardly any agitation on that cycle. No way will I be doing that.
I can remember when Horrockses towels and Marks & Spencer towels had 'washcode 2 (cottons), at 60 deg C'.
My parents's current Christy towels have labels stating wash as Cottons at 40 deg C.
So, no - take modern labelling with a shovelful of salt. I'll continue to wash cotton towels as you would expect to wash cottons - on the Cottons programme which has normal agitation.
And I admit, with a decent powder detergent, it is perfectly possible to wash at 40 deg C and still end up with clean clothing.
earthling177
Well-known member
I think the main idea here, which is also Mendelson's complaint in her Home Comforts book, is that labels *used* to be the harshest safe cleaning process for the garment, thus t-shirts, towels, jeans etc used to just say "machine wash and dry" or even "machine wash hot, tumble dry hot" and that was it, to now they are covering their asses and saying "machine wash gentle cycle cold, dry flat", which is basically not only wrong, it's just slightly less wrong than the other folks that print "dry clean only" for the same garments.
And I understand me, as a man, belong to a privileged slice of the population: I *know* my measurements, *all* I have to do is buy t-shirts, pants, shirts etc to my measurements, I don't even have to try them on. And there are places that do *not* make clothes properly, they *should* be preshrinking the fabric, then making the garment, they instead buy fabric and make the garment that will then during the first 2-3 washes shrink to fit the measurements.
People who buy garments like dresses, which say "size 6" are out of luck -- to begin with, they may be size 6 on that label, size 4 on the next, size 8 for a third brand, and when they try the garment it fits in the store, if they shrink after washing it will be more than just annoying.
The problem really is, that if the fabric has not been pre-shrunk, you can kiss garment stability goodbye, because it *will* shrink, it may take 6 washings, but no matter what you do, cold wash, dry flat under away from sun etc, it does not matter, natural fabrics shrink it's what they do. The only good way to deal with it properly is to at some point wash it in very hot water and dry on hot too, then it's usually stable.
And I understand me, as a man, belong to a privileged slice of the population: I *know* my measurements, *all* I have to do is buy t-shirts, pants, shirts etc to my measurements, I don't even have to try them on. And there are places that do *not* make clothes properly, they *should* be preshrinking the fabric, then making the garment, they instead buy fabric and make the garment that will then during the first 2-3 washes shrink to fit the measurements.
People who buy garments like dresses, which say "size 6" are out of luck -- to begin with, they may be size 6 on that label, size 4 on the next, size 8 for a third brand, and when they try the garment it fits in the store, if they shrink after washing it will be more than just annoying.
The problem really is, that if the fabric has not been pre-shrunk, you can kiss garment stability goodbye, because it *will* shrink, it may take 6 washings, but no matter what you do, cold wash, dry flat under away from sun etc, it does not matter, natural fabrics shrink it's what they do. The only good way to deal with it properly is to at some point wash it in very hot water and dry on hot too, then it's usually stable.
dreamclean
Well-known member
Small world David lol. I was surprised the author personally replied to you, she had to have been a little embarrassed. If a consumer watchdog group that probably employs scientists can't even get it right I question the major players. There's a total disconnect between the washer manufacturers and the detergent makers. Too much margin for error. 1.6 oz for Persil vs 2 tsp? They're just insanely concentrated. CR should be looking into that...And why aren't consumers being told upfront that detergent residue is #1 cause of machine failure? LG makes Tub Clean sound optional when it's absolutely critical to keep the machine functioning properly.
Talking about this with my friend who visited last week, she had noticed lots of suds in her Kenmore when there shouldn't have been. When we went into the subject of pilling, she looks down at her shirt and asks me if it's pilled. It was just as bad as some of mine, and she said she hadn't even worn it that much. I just tried Method 8X concentrated-- two squirts and my clothes still came out crunchy, but not as bad as others. So I feel lucky I found Heritage Park (by a fluke) that's actually formulated to rinse completely...
As for the public water, nothing out of the ordinary. You don't smell chlorine when showering like you might in other places. It does seem softer-- I used to be on well-water which was hard.
I get it about the care label and temperatures. Towels and sheets can handle a lot. But the other fabrics of today are way more delicate than they used to be, at least as far as women's garments go. I buy all of my clothes online from "higher end" places or eBay. Pretty much everything is so thin, it makes normal vintage clothes look and feel like workwear. I've gotten so used to the airy clothing it feels strange to wear something thick. But we have pretty mild weather most of the time so I don't have to wear bulky things. I avoid dry cleaners like the plague...even the best one in town ruined a top. That's why I had no problem getting the Sidekick for the delicates.
If we are able to check the water levels or reset them to factory settings who knows, this could change everything. If Whirlpool's Tub Clean does that automatically, it can't be all that uncommon. A milder detergent could also be a game changer. I'll let you know
Talking about this with my friend who visited last week, she had noticed lots of suds in her Kenmore when there shouldn't have been. When we went into the subject of pilling, she looks down at her shirt and asks me if it's pilled. It was just as bad as some of mine, and she said she hadn't even worn it that much. I just tried Method 8X concentrated-- two squirts and my clothes still came out crunchy, but not as bad as others. So I feel lucky I found Heritage Park (by a fluke) that's actually formulated to rinse completely...
As for the public water, nothing out of the ordinary. You don't smell chlorine when showering like you might in other places. It does seem softer-- I used to be on well-water which was hard.
I get it about the care label and temperatures. Towels and sheets can handle a lot. But the other fabrics of today are way more delicate than they used to be, at least as far as women's garments go. I buy all of my clothes online from "higher end" places or eBay. Pretty much everything is so thin, it makes normal vintage clothes look and feel like workwear. I've gotten so used to the airy clothing it feels strange to wear something thick. But we have pretty mild weather most of the time so I don't have to wear bulky things. I avoid dry cleaners like the plague...even the best one in town ruined a top. That's why I had no problem getting the Sidekick for the delicates.
If we are able to check the water levels or reset them to factory settings who knows, this could change everything. If Whirlpool's Tub Clean does that automatically, it can't be all that uncommon. A milder detergent could also be a game changer. I'll let you know
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
dreamclean
Well-known member
Omg yes
The About Us page says it all...And he's the founder of this site? Jon?
Haven't tried but it's next.
"In his research, Jon learned from experts in the appliance industry that customers were very unhappy with the current crop of detergents on the market. The complaint was that the detergents were over-sudsing in the new low-water-use machines, not rinsing out clothes properly, and causing electronic boards to burn out. The repairs were frequent and expensive and not covered under warranty, as it was considered “operator error.”
He discovered a well-known industry secret -Suds DO NOT clean clothes! This was true even back in your grandmother’s day. This is especially true since today’s machines struggle to rinse the suds out, and the suds bind up the cleaning agents! Today suds get in the way of cleaning!
Another major problem: in order to avoid too many suds in the new machines, consumers cut back on the amount of detergent they were using. The outcome has been poor cleaning and rinsing, with some machines becoming toxic with residue build-up. As evidence, on the market now are products designed just to clean your washing machine! The Department of Energy mandated low water use, but the detergent industry has had difficulty responding to new washer technology."
The About Us page says it all...And he's the founder of this site? Jon?
Haven't tried but it's next. "In his research, Jon learned from experts in the appliance industry that customers were very unhappy with the current crop of detergents on the market. The complaint was that the detergents were over-sudsing in the new low-water-use machines, not rinsing out clothes properly, and causing electronic boards to burn out. The repairs were frequent and expensive and not covered under warranty, as it was considered “operator error.”
He discovered a well-known industry secret -Suds DO NOT clean clothes! This was true even back in your grandmother’s day. This is especially true since today’s machines struggle to rinse the suds out, and the suds bind up the cleaning agents! Today suds get in the way of cleaning!
Another major problem: in order to avoid too many suds in the new machines, consumers cut back on the amount of detergent they were using. The outcome has been poor cleaning and rinsing, with some machines becoming toxic with residue build-up. As evidence, on the market now are products designed just to clean your washing machine! The Department of Energy mandated low water use, but the detergent industry has had difficulty responding to new washer technology."
richimaor
Well-known member
Pilling
The theory that pilling is caused by dry tumbling inside the washer could be true (among other factors), I have had a Kenmore 417 front load washer for 13 years and I've never had issues with pilling in my clothes; I think part of this is the fact that this machine has an old schooled timer and starts dispensing water in the moment you start the machine by pulling the timer knob so clothes never tumble dry, when washer is started it puts in a default amount of water (which is a considerable amount for a front loader, maybe around a gallon or more), then the washer starts tumbling and sensing the load, and yes, dispenses more water; load gets really wet and you still have a considerable amount of water inside the drum, it makes a spray rinse between main wash and first rinse; this washer makes 3 rinses in permanent press and 4 in regular cycle (without extra rinse option) so clothes rinse up pretty well even is you use a little bit more detergent than you should. This machines are known for bad bearings and early spider issues but I've never had any of this problems in almost 14 years of work. So back to the point... I really support the theory of less water leads to more pilling in clothes.
The theory that pilling is caused by dry tumbling inside the washer could be true (among other factors), I have had a Kenmore 417 front load washer for 13 years and I've never had issues with pilling in my clothes; I think part of this is the fact that this machine has an old schooled timer and starts dispensing water in the moment you start the machine by pulling the timer knob so clothes never tumble dry, when washer is started it puts in a default amount of water (which is a considerable amount for a front loader, maybe around a gallon or more), then the washer starts tumbling and sensing the load, and yes, dispenses more water; load gets really wet and you still have a considerable amount of water inside the drum, it makes a spray rinse between main wash and first rinse; this washer makes 3 rinses in permanent press and 4 in regular cycle (without extra rinse option) so clothes rinse up pretty well even is you use a little bit more detergent than you should. This machines are known for bad bearings and early spider issues but I've never had any of this problems in almost 14 years of work. So back to the point... I really support the theory of less water leads to more pilling in clothes.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
The About Us page says it all...And he's the founder of this site? Jon?
I have not been around here since the start of the site, but my understanding is that the person who started this website was Robert/Unimatic1140. He is the webmaster, and the person who does the coding now, at least.
But there were apparently very early members here, and there was some history before this site on (IIRC) some Yahoo group. Either of which might easily include the Jon behind Rosalie's.
I have not been around here since the start of the site, but my understanding is that the person who started this website was Robert/Unimatic1140. He is the webmaster, and the person who does the coding now, at least.
But there were apparently very early members here, and there was some history before this site on (IIRC) some Yahoo group. Either of which might easily include the Jon behind Rosalie's.
dreamclean
Well-known member
Turning a blind eye.
I didn't mention it before but it's definately crossed my mind...It says right there that the industry KNOWS that suds do not clean clothes. Sure, it's partly cultural, Americans associate clean with suds. We're used to seeing ads with bubbles because it takes an abstract concept and makes it tangible. And you know the eggheads over at LG and the like must know that the detergent isn't rinsing adequately so it clogs up the machines etc. Is there some kind of complicity going on, or at least a lazy form of planned obsolescence? Why didn't CR have a rinse test after all these years? And it took someone on Facebook to point this out? Can't help but wonder if they know too.
I didn't mention it before but it's definately crossed my mind...It says right there that the industry KNOWS that suds do not clean clothes. Sure, it's partly cultural, Americans associate clean with suds. We're used to seeing ads with bubbles because it takes an abstract concept and makes it tangible. And you know the eggheads over at LG and the like must know that the detergent isn't rinsing adequately so it clogs up the machines etc. Is there some kind of complicity going on, or at least a lazy form of planned obsolescence? Why didn't CR have a rinse test after all these years? And it took someone on Facebook to point this out? Can't help but wonder if they know too.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
Sure, it's partly cultural, Americans associate clean with suds.
Yes.
I've heard that at least some early versions of laundry detergents (including IIRC Tide) were low sudsing. But they didn't sell well because people expected to see suds. So...there was reformulation just to add suds.
Indeed, I remember hearing someone in my family--who had a science background--even talk about suds being unnecessary except for marketing.
What I can't understand now is why modern detergents continue to be so sudsy. OK, maybe there is a vision of providing a top load detergent for Grandma, who using the top load washer she bought in 1957... But front load washers have long since moved from novelty to routine appliance...and yet the detergents often seem to act like: it's still 1950, and we need to convince people detergent is good as soap!
Yes.
I've heard that at least some early versions of laundry detergents (including IIRC Tide) were low sudsing. But they didn't sell well because people expected to see suds. So...there was reformulation just to add suds.
Indeed, I remember hearing someone in my family--who had a science background--even talk about suds being unnecessary except for marketing.
What I can't understand now is why modern detergents continue to be so sudsy. OK, maybe there is a vision of providing a top load detergent for Grandma, who using the top load washer she bought in 1957... But front load washers have long since moved from novelty to routine appliance...and yet the detergents often seem to act like: it's still 1950, and we need to convince people detergent is good as soap!
dreamclean
Well-known member
Sooo for Americans to switch to no suds it's going to involve a total re-education about how sudsing detergents actually work in HE machines...but sounds like they never worked that great anyway! It's like if you watch Shark Tank, they will pass on investing in a product just because the learning curve is too steep for the average consumer. Just shows you how advertising has deeply brainwashed us for generations in America. I'm going to look up old print ads now.
But maybe it's also just because...bubbles are fun! Who doesn't love bubbles!
But maybe it's also just because...bubbles are fun! Who doesn't love bubbles!
dreamclean
Well-known member
Tiny diamonds
This ad is funny.
This ad is funny.
A layer of suds in a frontloader is actually really bad. It cushions the wash action, so the cleaning effect is less. At the same time it's a sign one is using too much detergent, which may lead to more wear on the clothes.
dreamclean
Well-known member
Dirty detergents
Yeah you guys know that but 99.9% of HE users here have no clue. We expect to see some at different points of the cycle since they're "low sudsing." With some detergents you don't have to overdo it or come even close to see the suds, and that's on the makers themselves.
I used Method 8X just for one load (back to Amazon it goes) and I am astonished at how different the experience is AFTER the wash. My clothes are suddenly a magnet for odors and soil. I dropped a tiny bit of food on some pants, as I sometimes do, and the next day I was wearing the pants and actually smelled the food odor (which I had cleaned up). It reeeked. I put on another pair and it smelled like the scented body lotion that I use everyday. I've never, ever had my clothes pick up fragrance like that. Since the makers aren't required to list ingredients, I believe it must be due to silicones or something. Whatever it was, when I did the viscosity test on my hands it too left a slick (so did Persil, Arm and Hammer, but not Tide Free or Ms Meyers). This slick is considered normal, but I think it's causing laundry to get even dirtier and smellier than it would otherwise.
Yeah you guys know that but 99.9% of HE users here have no clue. We expect to see some at different points of the cycle since they're "low sudsing." With some detergents you don't have to overdo it or come even close to see the suds, and that's on the makers themselves.
I used Method 8X just for one load (back to Amazon it goes) and I am astonished at how different the experience is AFTER the wash. My clothes are suddenly a magnet for odors and soil. I dropped a tiny bit of food on some pants, as I sometimes do, and the next day I was wearing the pants and actually smelled the food odor (which I had cleaned up). It reeeked. I put on another pair and it smelled like the scented body lotion that I use everyday. I've never, ever had my clothes pick up fragrance like that. Since the makers aren't required to list ingredients, I believe it must be due to silicones or something. Whatever it was, when I did the viscosity test on my hands it too left a slick (so did Persil, Arm and Hammer, but not Tide Free or Ms Meyers). This slick is considered normal, but I think it's causing laundry to get even dirtier and smellier than it would otherwise.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
I tried Method within the last 5 years or so. Target had small sample bottles (5 loads or whatever). I can't recall any complaints with clothes, but I did have issue with some sort of weird, slick feeling buildup on the washer tub. I can't say it was Method's fault...but the timing does suggest that Method was at least a cause. The problem went away with using other detergents.
dreamclean
Well-known member
Very interesting results just with a sample!
I know this isn't the first time this happened, it was many years ago but I distinctly remember having this same problem with another brand. I'm going to redo this load. Water bill is probably going to be crazy this month
I know this isn't the first time this happened, it was many years ago but I distinctly remember having this same problem with another brand. I'm going to redo this load. Water bill is probably going to be crazy this month
lordkenmore
Well-known member
I'm going to redo this load.
Ah, the "fun" of rewashing!
I've had to do that. The most memorable time was with some Tide sample (about 10 years ago) that left an incredibly strong scent on the laundry. It was so oppressive that I ended up rewashing a good chunk of the load for no other reason than getting rid of the Tide smell.
Ah, the "fun" of rewashing!
I've had to do that. The most memorable time was with some Tide sample (about 10 years ago) that left an incredibly strong scent on the laundry. It was so oppressive that I ended up rewashing a good chunk of the load for no other reason than getting rid of the Tide smell.
dreamclean
Well-known member
That too, Method's synthesized version of ozone-- "Fresh Air"--gives me a headache. Ironically I don't mind it as much as the stench of anything the clothes come in contact with, like food. At least the headache goes away after a while.
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