Gas Stoves and Indoor Pollution

[searsbest]

I will never give up my gas range, furnace, or fireplace! I've never had any ill effects from any of them, even when our 73 Tappan Range (she was a beauty) in our first house would trip the carbon monoxide detector..(low readings) (it only did it when it was on for long periods of time, like holidays) We have an electric stove in our summer home and it takes forever to heat up.. I couldn't imagine having to deal with that every time I wanted to cook! (I guess I'm just stubborn) and perhaps a bit crazy.. lol

 

[tomturbomatic]

None of this discussion was about home heating with gas and forcing a conversion to electric heating. It is about the indoor pollution by unvented gas ranges in kitchens.

 

[ea56]

I’ve cooked on my niece's and her MIL’s gas stoves and it took over 30 mins to get a 6 qt. pot of water to boil.  

 

On my GE coil top I can get 6 qts. of water to a boil in 10 mins or less.  So I would have to say my experience has been electric is faster than gas.  

 

Seems like a lot of wasted energy using gas, even if it may be slightly less expensive.

 

As I’ve said before, you can adjust and get used to anything with time.

 

Eddie

 

 

 

[bradfordwhite]

"If gas was really detrimental to our health wouldn't something have been done long ago ?"

 

Oh gee then, I guess that's that.  No need to worry.  The world is perfect with the exception for those few documented problems on the big 'TV machine'. 

 

NO.

 

That attitude is NOT how a society improves.


"If you guys don't like gas that is fine but done deny or try to sway the people that do."

 

We most certainly WILL try and bring to peoples attention when there is a problem.  Trying to 'hush' people from protecting other innocent humans is a DEF. NO GO!  SHAME !

"We all have our likes and dislikes. We shouldn't go trying to "childproof" the whole world.""

 

Ah, YES, we SH|OULD !  Who wouldn't appreciate a better, safer, more efficient society.  Again, that is how the world improves.  It doesn't matter what the entrenched want.  

 

[oliger]

I have a 1960's era Magic chef gas range. I have always been aware of a "combustion" type smell when it is in use. I have grown accustomed to it. However if I go on vacation or something and am not around it for a while, when I come back home I notice it again. It is kind of like "dry air" its hard to describe. It is particularly the oven, not a gas smell, but like breathing really dry air near the stove. It is a 110 year old home with no vent in the kitchen. I have always been a little curious what the carbon monoxide output of the kitchen is. I built storm windows for most of the house, but I never put any on the kitchen windows for this reason. I once saw a video on youtube about carbon monoxide and unvented ranges.
That being said, I still much prefer gas over electric. Personal preference, the reason being that Gas is instantly adjustable heat; electric is a slow fade up or down in heat, and is not instant in any way. My home, it's not even possible to have an electric stove. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Seriously John ?

"Gas dryers are not much of a problem, I can run a gas dryer <span style="text-decoration: underline;">unvented</span> in the same shop area in my basement <span style="text-decoration: underline;">unvented</span> for an hour drying a large load of clothing..."

 

I would expect YOU to know better than that.

 

You should know that gas dryer manufacturers specifically point out in their owner's manuals that the dryers MUST be vented outdoors.

 

That the manufacturers of vinyl dryer ducting specifically state that their product is NOT to be used with gas dryers. 

 

That the makers of indoor dryer vent traps specifically state that their product is NOT to be used with gas dryers because of poisonous gases

 

Perhaps you typed that in incorrectly and meant something other?

 

[agiflow3]

I'm the entrenched to you.? You don't know me from a can of paint buddy. Fire is a God given blessing as well as the world's natural gas. Yes I used the G word here. (Can here it now .)

The world won't be "safer" by eliminating natural gas in homes.

As far as my "kind of thinking" once again you don't know me or what I have convictions about or what I stand for.

I can easily throw that back on you but once again I won't don't dare go against the herd mentality of some folks here especially not the more "esteemed" members.

This is a community that I once thought was about tolerance..... (there's that word again) seems to me to be anything but.

Been through it here a couple of years ago and I got kicked off for stating my opinions.

You can have opinions here it seems as long as it agrees with some of the top "entrenched" members here

Let us neanderthals use our gas ranges and gas dryers in peace please and stop trying to find solutions to made up problems.

Think about that the next time you fire up your gasoline powered car with a combustion engine.

Have a nice day.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Pretty much all the houses I've lived in have had gas everything and only wired for 120. Conversion to electric would require extensive upgrading. I'm afraid I've never noticed any problems with gas, don't know of anyone with any health problems related to gas stoves. I've never noticed any smell of any kind. More to the point, I've experienced entirely too many power failures. I want at least 2 burners that light with a battery spark or a match and a gas water heater.

I'll shut my mouth now. I'm afraid the former English teacher in me escaped and took control. That article is so badly written I really don't know where to begin. I got about half way through and decided I needed to be on the clock to go any further.

 

[Marky_Mark]

It's interesting talking about unvented gas ranges and their effects on indoor air quality.  However, using other types of gas appliances that are installed with vents to outside should not negatively affect indoor air quality as all combustion by-products are exhausted outside. 

 

Gas cooking appliances are the exception as they are not themselves vented outside, although you may have a hood which may be vented outside and may or may not be turned on. 

 

As for venting a dryer indoors, this is usually not ideal (I wouldn't want to do it) due to the lint and moisture, unless you attach an additional "filter" to capture the fine lint and don't have a problem with humidity.  This applies to both gas and electric vented dryers.  In terms of any risk posed by venting a gas dryer indoors, this is interesting because most people believe that this is dangerous, yet they don't believe that having a gas range is dangerous.  In reality, a gas dryer should burn very efficiently and always has some kind of timer to ensure it should eventually shut off.  Whereas a gas cooktop can be burning far more gas than a dryer and it can be burning very inefficiently when you put cold pans on to boil, resulting in more emissions being given off into the home compared to the emissions from a gas dryer (other than what you would get anyway from an electric dryer).  

 

The installation of gas appliances in the UK is strictly regulated in terms of who can install them, what checks have to be made after installation, the suitable location of the appliance and the provision of make up air, if the combustion is not sealed from the room air.  The regulations on flues for gas appliances are strict, however, gas dryers are not required to be permanently vented outside unless required by the manufacturer, although it is highly recommended and I would imagine almost all are.  Gas dryers do need to have provision for ventilation for safe operation but permanent outdoor venting requirements are the same as for electric vented dryers (recommended but not compulsory).  This is because they don't pose any greater risk than a gas cooker/range/oven/hob/cooktop etc.  In fact, they are likely to be far far safer.  

 

As for cost, cooking typically accounts for only a small fraction of household energy use.  In Palm Springs, electricity is very expensive and you have either a tiered or time-of-use plan.  I have a tiered plan, which starts at $0.19/kWh and as you use more you then start paying $0.25 and then end up paying $0.43/kWh for the rest if you progress into the top tier.  Whereas gas is less than $0.04/kWh.  So the saving is clear.  However I still much prefer an induction cooktop over gas.  Induction can go lower and far higher than a gas burner.  It responds instantly.  It is far more efficient (uses less energy) and emits less heat to the room, offsetting the higher cost of electricity to some extent, but not completely.  I suspect that many (most?) people would prefer induction if they tried it for a couple of months and would not want to go back to gas.  

 

[agiflow3]

There are other concerns also.Induction ranges or non coil electric stoves have GLASS cooktops. Metal and glass is not the best combination for an appliance that gets used nearly every day.

There is always the potential you accidently drop a heavy pot on the cooktop. The glass shatters and then what? Will it be half the purchase price to replace the glass cooktop on your stove ? Or will you have to buy another range.

My new home has a Whirlpool gas stove installed and already I'm thinking of maybe taking my Tappan with me. No electronics on the Tappan and the analog controls still work after 33 years.

 

[mattl]

Wow, such strum und drang.  You like gas, use it, you like electric use it. I've had a gas cooktop for 30 years, and no my kitchen is not dirty, in fact I  have white wallpaper that in no way is discolored.  I also have an unvented dryer NEXT to a CO2 detector that reads "0".  I also had a smooth top range for many many years it never cracked but I didn't thow pots at it, if they cracked they would not still be on the market so just a staw man.

 

I can adjust my gas burner to EXACTLY the heat I want, my cooktop has an assortment of burners with a range of outputs, from next to nothing to 19,000 btu's, I can easily cook rice perfectly, I just use the correct burner.  I'd opt for induction, put the cost is 50-200% more than my gas cooktop plus I'd need a selection of new cookware.  I can easily run the power line myself, but the wire and breaker would add $125+ to the cost, so for me not worth it.

 

I like induction, it does a great job but my personal cost/benefit analysis indicates not worth it at this point for me.  Your free to do what you think is best.

 

[agiflow3]

No straw man. These things happen in the real world. No need to get your bloomers in a bunch.

I don't throw pans at my stove either. Use what you like. As long as it isn't hurting others....isn't that the mantra ?

 

[wayupnorth]

I hate electric for stovetop cooking, like a pot starts to boil over with gas, it is stopped immediately by just turning it down and glass electric cook tops do shatter and cost ALOT to repair. But for baking an electric oven works better for me. I have propane for my range and supplemental heat and they always work just fine during a power outage. I wish I had my nieces dual-fuel Jenn-Aire.

 

[bradfordwhite]

This isn't a competition and no one's a bad or second rate person because of the appliances they have. Especially in this club.

We're all here to support each other in our appliance specific persuits, whatever they may be. There are too few of us in the world to be concerned about petty competitions and knocking off "the weaker ones"

I grew up with gas appliances. Our 1960s home had a gas line installed in about 1978 and we converted from a oil furnace to gas. That's the only appliance we converted over but my parents intended to do a water heater.

I used to LOVE the gas stoves because as someone else pointed out, they instantly come on and turn off. I also liked the smell too, which I find really odd. lol
But they also soot your pans.

I've installed several gas furnaces, water heaters, piped in and installed gas stoves, I installed (two) gas fireplaces in my second and third homes I built. In the midwest where I came from gas was, and perhaps still is, like life blood.

But, we weren't told of the dangers either.
Yes I have experienced gas pipes going through cement walls that were 15 years old and the lime was literally eating through the pipe to the point it was leaking gas. An emergency repair was required. Thank- god the gas company was going around with their detectors, found it, and called me.
And yes, I was re-piping a stove for my former X in his 1955 house and we found that the gas meter outside was leaking.
Yes, I know what it's like when the carbon monoxide detector goes off because there is a leak in the house and I couldn't smell it.
Yes, I know what it's like coming home after being away for a month in winter and the house has the subtle tinge of gas because the gas connector to the furnace is leaking and required instant repair.
Yes, there are numerous videos showing not only homes blowing up, but the large delivery lines exploding on security camera.
And there are numerous other public incidents.

When you look at the fires after earthquakes in California, many would not happen if there were no gas lines. It's absolutely stupid in an earthquake prone area where we know the ground is constantly moving, to be burying gas lines. That's just asking for a disaster. Throw in gas lines connected to a mobile home and the jostling of an earthquake is all it takes to cause a leak.

Am I biased against gas? You bet I am. Especially for residential purposes.

This stuff doesn't happen with Electric or Solar.

 

[sudsmaster]

Ever see a lithium battery catch fire? It's basically out of control, cannot readily be extinguished.

Nothern California's worst wildfire was started up north of the Bay Area by arcing ELECTRIC power lines. How many died there? Ratepayers will be paying off the cost of that for decades to come.

A well adjusted gas flame will burn blue and have little to no pollutant emissions. And anything that does come out can be handled by turning on the range hood fan, which nearly all homes have these days. Those that don't are likely to be older homes that are not air tight to begin with, and have enough indoor air changes naturally.

Bottom line: energy storage and transmission of ANY kind is inherently unsafe. There are well known ways to prevent disasters both with gas and electricity. When these methods are allowed to lapse we get problems.

 

[tomturbomatic]

John's comments about running a gas dryer unvented in his shop is based on repair and testing of the dryers during cold weather when the heat was welcome. Running the unvented gas dryers constantly was not the practice and electric dryers were also run this way. As for the lint, John used to exhaust the dryers into large pillow cases.

 

[mattl]

I guess there are two kinds of gas stoves, I have never seen any soot on my pots and pans --ever!

 

 

 

I'm using a split system - I have a Siemen's gas cooktop over my Electrolux wall oven, I think it's the best of both worlds.

 

[sudsmaster]

If the gas flame is all blue, it should be relatively clean. If it has orange and yellow, then that's a warning of incomplete combustion and carbon monoxide danger, AFAIK.

YMMV

 

[askolover]

The only time I've seen pots turn black on the bottom using gas was propane. 

Back in the 80's, either Discover magazine or Popular Science had an article about gas ranges and their pollutants.  They also wrote about new type of burner, maybe like an inshot burner used in furnaces now, that fired below the cooktop and just sent the heat out through a ceramic distributor plate with holes in it.  There was also this metal ring that would just sit on the aluminum burner and cause it to burn even cleaner. 

Man I love the internet....here it is.  It's funny I can walk from one room to another and forget what I was going in there for but this article I found within 2 minutes because of my semi-photographic memory when it comes to pics and conversations.  I haven't seen this article since I read it way back in 1984.

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[this post was last edited: 5/14/2020-05:24]

 

[combo52]

Popular science article on gas range burner design

Hi Greg, thanks for posting this, I always loved PS magazine 

 

It is interesting that when they convert the gas burner to more of a radiant burner design that it becomes so much more efficient at heating pans and releases less heat into the room, it makes it behave more like an electric element but at a lower operating cost.

 

My friend Tom reprinted an article from Appliance Manufacturer Magazine many years ago where Hardwick range company actually built and sold a gas range with an inferred gas top burner that also had a sensor so you could automatically control the pans temperature.

 

Gas ranges are not likely to go away in anyones lifetime here, BUT they need some serious redesign. 

 

Gas ranges have gotten WORSE in energy consumption since the mid 80s in the US because the appliance manufactures lobbied the department of energy not to have any regulations on gas or electric ranges auguring that all ranges were about the same and therefor there was no point in any regulation.

 

So range builders started making ovens bigger, windows bigger [ many ovens doors have zero insulation in them any longer ] they started going away from well insulated Self-Cleaning ovens. And on the surface burners got much higher BTU burners and heavy cast-iron grates that all have increased energy use and pollution in the home. Many of these features have also made ranges harder to use and clean as well, but manufacturers realize that ranges are more about styling and looking professional than actually being used to cook with.

 

This has resulted in longer oven preheat times and broilers that do not work nearly as well. The excessively large front burners on gas ranges cause lots of burns and accidents from flames shooting out from under pans every year. I often have customers that complain about this and I put in the smaller propane orifice and drill it out to a reasonable size. The other week I converted a 17,000 BTU burner on a KM-FD range to about 12,000 BTUs for example.

 

John L.