scott55405
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2004
- Messages
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Yup I know right where you were Dan, and we've discussed your feelings about that experience in the past. ;-)
Happy High-Holidays Everyone
- Thread starter Unimatic1140
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Actually....
The twin cities and I have made peace with each other ;-) I was there this Spring to visit some friends and had a blast. I think I'll be there right around Xmas this year. Hoping to stay at my old employer (the downtown Marriott)
The twin cities and I have made peace with each other ;-) I was there this Spring to visit some friends and had a blast. I think I'll be there right around Xmas this year. Hoping to stay at my old employer (the downtown Marriott)
gay pride days
I think they are a great idea. Having said that, I find myself somewhat conflicted about the way we present ourselves to the rest of the world.
At the risk of having everyone flame me to death, I have a serious problem (sorry, "issue") with the way these days are associated with flaming, flamboyant, flagrant fluffy gayness. Or the ultra-leather S/M stuff.
I wonder if we aren't just giving the christians more of the ammunition they need to continue their drive to have us all murdered or subjected to torture. If we were all to come out of our closests - dressed and acting like something other than Pink on a bad hair day - it might just be interesting to see what we could accomplish. As things stand now, the image we project is one which is not reality for the majority of us.
I am out, I am 100% gay, and I never hide or deny who I am - and have paid the price for it both in discrimination and physical violence.
Please, no flames and accusations - I am just putting in my two cents here.
I think they are a great idea. Having said that, I find myself somewhat conflicted about the way we present ourselves to the rest of the world.
At the risk of having everyone flame me to death, I have a serious problem (sorry, "issue") with the way these days are associated with flaming, flamboyant, flagrant fluffy gayness. Or the ultra-leather S/M stuff.
I wonder if we aren't just giving the christians more of the ammunition they need to continue their drive to have us all murdered or subjected to torture. If we were all to come out of our closests - dressed and acting like something other than Pink on a bad hair day - it might just be interesting to see what we could accomplish. As things stand now, the image we project is one which is not reality for the majority of us.
I am out, I am 100% gay, and I never hide or deny who I am - and have paid the price for it both in discrimination and physical violence.
Please, no flames and accusations - I am just putting in my two cents here.
Are the parades too flamboyant or not representational?
My take on it is this: The people that hate us, hate us. The people that love us, love us. Both are in the minority, as most people don't really care either way, despite what some politicians and clergy would have you believe. They're the ones who are always looking for distractions.
So the 11pm news comes on the evening of the pride parade in any given town. They show the obligatory draq queen/gogo boys/leatherman/dyke on bike, or a combination thereof. 20% of the viewing audience gets worked up about Our Decaying Morals (which is the goal of the people who put together the evening newsertainment program) 20% of the audience thinks it's great. 60% of the people out there think to themselves "Oh. Today was gay pride day?" and move on to the next story.
I've seen the same reaction for the last twenty years, in all of the TV markets I've lived in (Omaha, Cedar Rapids, Minneapolis, and Seattle).
My take on it is this: The people that hate us, hate us. The people that love us, love us. Both are in the minority, as most people don't really care either way, despite what some politicians and clergy would have you believe. They're the ones who are always looking for distractions.
So the 11pm news comes on the evening of the pride parade in any given town. They show the obligatory draq queen/gogo boys/leatherman/dyke on bike, or a combination thereof. 20% of the viewing audience gets worked up about Our Decaying Morals (which is the goal of the people who put together the evening newsertainment program) 20% of the audience thinks it's great. 60% of the people out there think to themselves "Oh. Today was gay pride day?" and move on to the next story.
I've seen the same reaction for the last twenty years, in all of the TV markets I've lived in (Omaha, Cedar Rapids, Minneapolis, and Seattle).
Dan & Scott-- In fact, the little grocery store in the the lower section of the building (a few steps down from street level) is right across the street from where I stay when I'm in Mpls. I have noticed quite a number of 'family' live at 215 Oak Grove St. It's quite a nice place, really: A big party room w/kitchen, a small gym, and a laundry room full of Neptune FL'ers. There is NO parking for guests, which is a pain. There were 5 or 6 spots on the west side of the bldg, but those are now reserved for renters. I can usually con the guy at the desk to give me an unused spot in the bldg's ramp for the weekend, which is so much better than parking 4 blocks away.
Funny that you both know the place. It is truly a small world.
Funny that you both know the place. It is truly a small world.
true -
I am having trouble expressing myself very well here, so please bear with me. A close friend of mine is very much in the closet. His wife died recently, he has a young child. Now he must chose between his homosexual nature (I don't buy the "preference" shit) and the good old, socially acceptable step-mother and "straight" life.
OK, here in Germany he could marry a man (bitte, keine Grundsatz Diskussionen über "Heiraten und Verpartnern") and no one would openly discriminate against him. No danger of losing his child, as in the US. But he is afraid. Alongside all the other things, he thinks being gay means meaningless, cheap sex and endless affairs and no-one who gives a f*** about you when you are old and no longer beautiful.
This is the reality most people percieve as us. They may be tolerant of us (and many straight men under the heel of their wives secretly jealous) but they don't see it as a valid culture.
To be honest, once I got past my early 20's, I didn't either.
Again - nothing against the fluff and feathers. Me, I suffer from a horrid physical handicap - they don't make high-heels in my size - just some thoughts, here.
I am having trouble expressing myself very well here, so please bear with me. A close friend of mine is very much in the closet. His wife died recently, he has a young child. Now he must chose between his homosexual nature (I don't buy the "preference" shit) and the good old, socially acceptable step-mother and "straight" life.
OK, here in Germany he could marry a man (bitte, keine Grundsatz Diskussionen über "Heiraten und Verpartnern") and no one would openly discriminate against him. No danger of losing his child, as in the US. But he is afraid. Alongside all the other things, he thinks being gay means meaningless, cheap sex and endless affairs and no-one who gives a f*** about you when you are old and no longer beautiful.
This is the reality most people percieve as us. They may be tolerant of us (and many straight men under the heel of their wives secretly jealous) but they don't see it as a valid culture.
To be honest, once I got past my early 20's, I didn't either.
Again - nothing against the fluff and feathers. Me, I suffer from a horrid physical handicap - they don't make high-heels in my size - just some thoughts, here.
Life is what you make it
That's a cliche, but a good one.
In my life I've been a closet case, a go-go boy, a coatcheck in a leather bar and Mr. Gay Seattle (which is even less of an accomplishment than you might believe ;-) Now, I am one half of a boring couple with three dogs and a cat who are usually sound asleep by the time Letterman comes on.
And, as someone who spent many many years in the hotel business, I can tell you that gays do not have the corner on "meaningless, cheap sex and endless affairs". Why do you think there are so many conventions? Why do you think hotels no longer ask to see marriage licenses upon check-in?
As far as fear of losing your looks, just take a stroll down the cosmetic aisle at Macy's, or watch an evening of television commercials to see how the larger world deals with that prospect.
People project onto gays and lesbians lots of their own fears and prejudices - and there are many gay/lesbian folks who are far from angels - but when you get right down to it, we're all just people trying to make it through the day. You're friend needs to remember that if he wants to be happy.
That's a cliche, but a good one.
In my life I've been a closet case, a go-go boy, a coatcheck in a leather bar and Mr. Gay Seattle (which is even less of an accomplishment than you might believe ;-) Now, I am one half of a boring couple with three dogs and a cat who are usually sound asleep by the time Letterman comes on.
And, as someone who spent many many years in the hotel business, I can tell you that gays do not have the corner on "meaningless, cheap sex and endless affairs". Why do you think there are so many conventions? Why do you think hotels no longer ask to see marriage licenses upon check-in?
As far as fear of losing your looks, just take a stroll down the cosmetic aisle at Macy's, or watch an evening of television commercials to see how the larger world deals with that prospect.
People project onto gays and lesbians lots of their own fears and prejudices - and there are many gay/lesbian folks who are far from angels - but when you get right down to it, we're all just people trying to make it through the day. You're friend needs to remember that if he wants to be happy.
Frigilux, that IS a coincidence! I think I was in apartment 315 or something like that: A little one bedroom, with bath and kitchen off one side of the living room, and bedroom on the other side, facing the courtyard. Very cute place.
frontaloadotmy
Well-known member
Interesting Keven
My Mother was born in Longmont, and the house still stands.
(I'm just using that as my initial credential to comment, and you needn't consider this flamation nor accusatin.) May I ask that you be specific about the excess of "flaming, flamboyant,
flagrant fluffy gayness, that Christians (I am a Christian)
or anyone else could use as justification (intellectually) for murdering or torturing us? (GLBT's) Shouldn't we murder the participants of the "MillionMan March", and the New York
Saint Patrick's Day Parade too? I have no fear about being represented by a horde of Harley driving Human Units of the Female Gender, a group comprised of Gays/Lesb's and their loving and supporting parents and friends,
Gay and Lesbian Parents raising Children, Same Sex Couples of Long Term Duration, or a Floatfull of Humpy Party Boys and Girls.People that don't like Queers are STUPID, PERIOD! And they seemingly
don't need any justification to espouse their stupidity. It
won't happen in our life time, but sooner, or perhaps a bit
later human kind is going to evolve to the point that they are going to recall with befuddlement certain behaviours.
We will then all breath a welcome sigh of relief!
My Mother was born in Longmont, and the house still stands.
(I'm just using that as my initial credential to comment, and you needn't consider this flamation nor accusatin.) May I ask that you be specific about the excess of "flaming, flamboyant,
flagrant fluffy gayness, that Christians (I am a Christian)
or anyone else could use as justification (intellectually) for murdering or torturing us? (GLBT's) Shouldn't we murder the participants of the "MillionMan March", and the New York
Saint Patrick's Day Parade too? I have no fear about being represented by a horde of Harley driving Human Units of the Female Gender, a group comprised of Gays/Lesb's and their loving and supporting parents and friends,
Gay and Lesbian Parents raising Children, Same Sex Couples of Long Term Duration, or a Floatfull of Humpy Party Boys and Girls.People that don't like Queers are STUPID, PERIOD! And they seemingly
don't need any justification to espouse their stupidity. It
won't happen in our life time, but sooner, or perhaps a bit
later human kind is going to evolve to the point that they are going to recall with befuddlement certain behaviours.
We will then all breath a welcome sigh of relief!
go-go boy?
send pics
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
send pics
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
ah, Darrell,
No - I have no fear of being represented by anyone. Nor is anyone's "non-conformist" behaviour grounds for hurting them.
OK?
Because I live openly, the mother of my last partner systematically destroyed my life. She made up lies and used her position in local government to set 17 (!) various regional, state and federal agencies on me.
I have been physically attacked, lost my job, had my family harrassed and on and on and on - all because I dared to stand up and clearly say - with my full name - that I am gay and that is ok. Only just barely escaped being thrown into "Untersuchungshaft" (being held in a real prison for up to six months awaiting trial) because two of the charges she made would have required me to be in two different places at the same time...and the presiding judge was smart enough to see harrassment when it was writ large before her face.
So don't think I am in any way, shape or form ashamed of myself or trying to make us fit into some heterosexual rôle. I am not.
I have nothing against the ourtré side of our gay cultural life. Nothing. I have marched in Denver for a woman's right to chose and been splattered with blood. I am the only openly gay member of the teaching staff at a university with over 2,000 lecturers - and I do not have tenure.
I was one of the first men in Germany to be granted joint custody of my partner's children - which put me in the papers again.
My partner, by the by, had orange/blue hair, collar, fangs and more piercings than I could count. We spent 200 Euros for his fingernails and make-up for the love parade in Berlin a few years ago...and that Ballkleid, well I am not even going there...satin and lace is THAT hard to press.
I was wearing skin.
During my first studies - in a state where sodomy was illegal and courts largely ignored attacks on gays and lesbians - I was chair of our local gay and lesbian rights group. Had my name and picture in the local paper (front page) over ten times in three years.
Having said this, I still am convinced that gay pride days would be more effective to furthering our cause if we were to make the loving, nurturing and dare I say it, family oriented aspects of being gay more widely known.
I am very much aware that there is no way to have any sort of discussion about this without facing the twin arguments of - well, you are just a repressed bitch who resents her queenliness and therefore attacks the more flamboyant of us on the one side and
well, obviously WE are not the problem but the intolerant folks on the other side who justify there actions based on the christian religion.
But we are under attack. The christians are out to get us, that is not being paranoid. Living in Germany, I have had a good chance to see and talk to the (few) survivors of the Nazi era. And the Nazi's used the same tools against them which the christians now use against us.
How wonderful that you can be a christian. Many Jews also voted originally for the Nazis...
But don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you belong to that religion they won't still come to get you the very moment they think they are strong enough to do so.
Enough.
There is probably no way to discuss this, either you accept the conventional wisdom that gay culture must be portrayed with broadly drawn stereotypes or you are wrong.
No - I have no fear of being represented by anyone. Nor is anyone's "non-conformist" behaviour grounds for hurting them.
OK?
Because I live openly, the mother of my last partner systematically destroyed my life. She made up lies and used her position in local government to set 17 (!) various regional, state and federal agencies on me.
I have been physically attacked, lost my job, had my family harrassed and on and on and on - all because I dared to stand up and clearly say - with my full name - that I am gay and that is ok. Only just barely escaped being thrown into "Untersuchungshaft" (being held in a real prison for up to six months awaiting trial) because two of the charges she made would have required me to be in two different places at the same time...and the presiding judge was smart enough to see harrassment when it was writ large before her face.
So don't think I am in any way, shape or form ashamed of myself or trying to make us fit into some heterosexual rôle. I am not.
I have nothing against the ourtré side of our gay cultural life. Nothing. I have marched in Denver for a woman's right to chose and been splattered with blood. I am the only openly gay member of the teaching staff at a university with over 2,000 lecturers - and I do not have tenure.
I was one of the first men in Germany to be granted joint custody of my partner's children - which put me in the papers again.
My partner, by the by, had orange/blue hair, collar, fangs and more piercings than I could count. We spent 200 Euros for his fingernails and make-up for the love parade in Berlin a few years ago...and that Ballkleid, well I am not even going there...satin and lace is THAT hard to press.
I was wearing skin.
During my first studies - in a state where sodomy was illegal and courts largely ignored attacks on gays and lesbians - I was chair of our local gay and lesbian rights group. Had my name and picture in the local paper (front page) over ten times in three years.
Having said this, I still am convinced that gay pride days would be more effective to furthering our cause if we were to make the loving, nurturing and dare I say it, family oriented aspects of being gay more widely known.
I am very much aware that there is no way to have any sort of discussion about this without facing the twin arguments of - well, you are just a repressed bitch who resents her queenliness and therefore attacks the more flamboyant of us on the one side and
well, obviously WE are not the problem but the intolerant folks on the other side who justify there actions based on the christian religion.
But we are under attack. The christians are out to get us, that is not being paranoid. Living in Germany, I have had a good chance to see and talk to the (few) survivors of the Nazi era. And the Nazi's used the same tools against them which the christians now use against us.
How wonderful that you can be a christian. Many Jews also voted originally for the Nazis...
But don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you belong to that religion they won't still come to get you the very moment they think they are strong enough to do so.
Enough.
There is probably no way to discuss this, either you accept the conventional wisdom that gay culture must be portrayed with broadly drawn stereotypes or you are wrong.
not that I feel strongly about this
but I confess my reaction to Darrell's posting was over the top. Certainly there are good people who are also christian. I just was never a person who felt comfortable belonging to a religion which advocated my being stoned to death.
My sense of humour about all of this just plain got lost somewhere along the way. I think it was back at a funeral in the late '80's for the fortieth acquaintance whose family wouldn't come to the funeral cause he had died of Aids and that was their god's curse on homosexuals.
If my comments offend, please forgive me. If we can march in technicolour with dolby surround, I hope I can be a bit over the top in black and white at times...
but I confess my reaction to Darrell's posting was over the top. Certainly there are good people who are also christian. I just was never a person who felt comfortable belonging to a religion which advocated my being stoned to death.
My sense of humour about all of this just plain got lost somewhere along the way. I think it was back at a funeral in the late '80's for the fortieth acquaintance whose family wouldn't come to the funeral cause he had died of Aids and that was their god's curse on homosexuals.
If my comments offend, please forgive me. If we can march in technicolour with dolby surround, I hope I can be a bit over the top in black and white at times...
Agreeing to Join
You have my complete agreement, Panthera. It is the worst sterotype of any culture that is used to further a spirit of diviseness. I have lived border to border and coast to coast in America. Nover once, in any lacale was I ever discriminated against or harrassed for being gay. I also made an attempt to read the surroundings and fit in. In Seattle you can dress and act anyway you want and people don't even register a reaction. The same person acting the same way in Mississippi would be treated like a freak. All of us need to accept the responsibility for fitting in, if we want to live without reaction. It has absolutely nothing to do with being gay. Women who wear make up like clowns or dress like sluts are always an object of derision. Men who dress too young, dye their eyebrows, wear shark tooth necklaces and bad wigs, always look foolish. Displaying the most extreme of examples of the homosexual experience continues to give critics of the gay lifestyle, the stereotypical image they need to polarize the masses.
Kelly
You have my complete agreement, Panthera. It is the worst sterotype of any culture that is used to further a spirit of diviseness. I have lived border to border and coast to coast in America. Nover once, in any lacale was I ever discriminated against or harrassed for being gay. I also made an attempt to read the surroundings and fit in. In Seattle you can dress and act anyway you want and people don't even register a reaction. The same person acting the same way in Mississippi would be treated like a freak. All of us need to accept the responsibility for fitting in, if we want to live without reaction. It has absolutely nothing to do with being gay. Women who wear make up like clowns or dress like sluts are always an object of derision. Men who dress too young, dye their eyebrows, wear shark tooth necklaces and bad wigs, always look foolish. Displaying the most extreme of examples of the homosexual experience continues to give critics of the gay lifestyle, the stereotypical image they need to polarize the masses.
Kelly
Kelly,
It is tough to know where the limits are. One of the reasons I like living in Germany is that people leave homosexuals here alone. Of course, there are other disadvantages; AIDs decimated my generation over here; most Germans refused to believe in the dangers until it was way too late.
I am not completely "angepasst". My hair is frequently a different colour, I have been known to show up at parties in a collar and black fingernails, etc.
But when I have had to speak for "us", whether in the US or here, I have always been very careful to moderate my voice, sound reasonable and like someone you would want to leave your children with in an emergency for a week.
Still, tho' - I have never answered the question "are you married" except with "widower - my Mann died in 1982. And you? Every one has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with - I just really resent it when I am told I am not really "gay" enough because I forgot to pick my feathers up at the Drycleaners this morning.
It is tough to know where the limits are. One of the reasons I like living in Germany is that people leave homosexuals here alone. Of course, there are other disadvantages; AIDs decimated my generation over here; most Germans refused to believe in the dangers until it was way too late.
I am not completely "angepasst". My hair is frequently a different colour, I have been known to show up at parties in a collar and black fingernails, etc.
But when I have had to speak for "us", whether in the US or here, I have always been very careful to moderate my voice, sound reasonable and like someone you would want to leave your children with in an emergency for a week.
Still, tho' - I have never answered the question "are you married" except with "widower - my Mann died in 1982. And you? Every one has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with - I just really resent it when I am told I am not really "gay" enough because I forgot to pick my feathers up at the Drycleaners this morning.
Ofcourse it's not OK to say you aren't gay enough. Fighting for the rights of gay people is also fighting for the right to live ones life as he or she wants it to do. But it's not OK to judge the more stereotypical gay or the more flamboyant people. As a matter of fact it were the more flamboyant gays who were the first coming out of the closet and who fought for gay rights. Personally I am greatful to the people who lead an open gay lifestyle, not hiding from anyone that they were gay. They are the ones who started the to create the more liberal situation in which we are nowadays.
Louis
Louis
no argument from me there, Louis
Perhaps I should re-emphasize: My handfasting was with a man who was 6'7" tall. Café au lait skin, green eyes, brown-blond curly hair - obviously the best of black and white and impossible to hide in a crowd. There are still some pictures of us floating around in the internet. We are riding a horse clad in linen shirts (the kind you lace up with balloon sleeves), 501s and green suede knee high boots through Golden Gate Park. My hair was half way down my back and orange with green tips. Even for San Francisco that was flamboyant in those days. (Today I think you would have to wear a polyester leisure suit to get a second look).
I have done flamboyant, I AM flaming when the wind is north by northwest. But the ultra-camp oh-so-over-the-top is just so overdone. And it is, I suspect, also an attempt on our parts to fit in with society's (sick) concept of us. I am a man, I don't need to prove it to anyone. At the same time, I do not have to be a flamer 24 hours a day to be gay. Hell, gayness is no more subject of definition than is straightness...
(When I say gay, I suppose I should say "homosexual" to include lesbians. Then again, the Transgendered. And the Bi-sexuals. Not to mention folks like one of my closest friends who is a straight man living with another man to raise their children because both have zero chance of finding a woman who will care for their kids like they do...it is not discrimination, just me talking about me.)
Perhaps I should re-emphasize: My handfasting was with a man who was 6'7" tall. Café au lait skin, green eyes, brown-blond curly hair - obviously the best of black and white and impossible to hide in a crowd. There are still some pictures of us floating around in the internet. We are riding a horse clad in linen shirts (the kind you lace up with balloon sleeves), 501s and green suede knee high boots through Golden Gate Park. My hair was half way down my back and orange with green tips. Even for San Francisco that was flamboyant in those days. (Today I think you would have to wear a polyester leisure suit to get a second look).
I have done flamboyant, I AM flaming when the wind is north by northwest. But the ultra-camp oh-so-over-the-top is just so overdone. And it is, I suspect, also an attempt on our parts to fit in with society's (sick) concept of us. I am a man, I don't need to prove it to anyone. At the same time, I do not have to be a flamer 24 hours a day to be gay. Hell, gayness is no more subject of definition than is straightness...
(When I say gay, I suppose I should say "homosexual" to include lesbians. Then again, the Transgendered. And the Bi-sexuals. Not to mention folks like one of my closest friends who is a straight man living with another man to raise their children because both have zero chance of finding a woman who will care for their kids like they do...it is not discrimination, just me talking about me.)
Did someone say lesbians?
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and here we have a totally unrelated business.
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OMG...The only way Mary's could be topped is if it was called 'Nelly's Fish Camp' or 'Little Nancy's Fish Camp'. Mucho LOL, at any rate!
OK Guys, this is a great thread and I'm going to have to spend more time on this whole site. It's the first one of its kind I've found where men are open about their lifestyle. I check out a couple of other forums on vintage TV & radio stuff and those guys all seem to be pretty straight. I noticed handles on this site that contained "bear" (I have an affinity for bear types) and knew I had found a cool group.
So tell me guys, is this site mostly populated by PLU's (people like us) or what?
So tell me guys, is this site mostly populated by PLU's (people like us) or what?
