HE detergents....

[sudsmaster]

Kirkland powder

Well, I picked up a square bucket of Kirkland institutional laundry powder today, and yes it does seem relatively low sudsing. OTOH, it also has a fair amount of filler (sodium sulfate), so it's not as concentrated (I think) as Sears Ultra Plus HE. I say this because the 28 lb bucket of Kirkland advertises 200 loads, whereas a 32 lb bucket of Sears Ultra Plus HE claims 275 loads. So the Kirkland claims 7.14 loads per lb, whereas the Sears claims 8.6 load/lb. Not a huge difference, but might make for slight adjustment in dosing.

Right now I'm running a test load in the Neptune 7500 using hot water and 29 min wash for my work duds. These generally get pretty dirty, at least the jeans, with a fair amount of foam suppressant from the machine coolant I work with. It seems like I had to add slightly more Kirkland to get a hint of suds than I normally do with the Sears. And in both cases, I'm boosting the detergent with STPP.

I'm curious to see if the absence of enzymes in the Kirkland product will adversely affect cleaning. I suspect not, because I'm using hot (130F) water and STPP. We'll see...

 

[autowasherfreak]

I've been using Sun liquid that can be used in both HE and non-HE machines. I used it several times when I had my WP Cabrio, and never had problems with suds. Same with the Purex HE.

 

[sudsmaster]

Oversudsing in the Miele!

Well, I ran a couple of loads in the Mieles. One, the bed sheets in the W1065. The other, a load of whites in the W1918A. Both temps set to 160F. I added a similar amount of the Kirkland detergent that I normally add of Sears HE. Both get cut with about 30% by weight of STPP.

Disaster!

I came back after the water had heated up to about 150F, and both machines were in serious oversudsing mode. The W1065 was actually puking suds out of its detergent drawer space. The 1918, not yet. So I immediately turned down the temp to 100 or so, and forced both machines into drain. I set the W1065 into rinse mode (the sheets were probably clean enough by then) and let the 1918 continue on its wash mode (no way to advance the 1918 to the rinse portion of the cycle that I could see). Actually had to force a drain on the 1918 several times.

After that the suds subsided and I'm waiting to see how the load of whites in the 1918 comes out.

If I use the Kirkland in the Mieles again I'll have to slash the dosage to 1/2 or even less. But I suspect the surfactant in the Kirkland is of the type that tends to produce more and more suds as the temp goes up, so while it's ok on my work duds at 130F in the Neptune, it's probably not a good choice for the Miele washers at higher temps.

Live and learn.

 

[sudsmaster]

BTW, the work duds came out of the Neptune relatively clean. I haven't done a full inspection of the blue jeans (they get the worst dirt) but so far they look clean enough.

But I'm not sure that the ability of the Kirkland powder to handle the work clothes without oversudsing justifies having yet another detergent powder to stock and keep track of just for one type of load, cause I'm still going to need a real HE powder for the higher temp Miele washers.

It might be good for degreasing the driveway, lol...

 

[passatdoc]

Mexican Persil

I wonder about the formula:

1. Phosphates? (legal in Mexico, not legal in Germany)

2. Most of the machines depicted in the ad were top loaders. I wonder if the formula is higher sudsing, or whether there are both TL and FL versions of the product.

 

[revvinkevin]

You could add 10 scoops and never have suds or rinsing probl

 

 

Martin, I'm going to disagree with you on this.   I have seen small amounts if suds with both Sears Ultra Plus (orange box) and the Kirkland brand (red box), though fewer suds with the Sears.   YES both will suds up more with hotter water and especially of there's only a few items in there (like if pre-washing or soaking).  If I "overdose" the amount if detergent, it will suds up more (and a lot fewer then 10 scoops too, haha).   Another thing which makes a difference is how "hard" or "soft" the water is.   I have a water softener and have had to adjust the amount of detergent I use (less) so I don't get too many suds.

 

I did try a bottle of (some) liquid detergent once and simply didn't care for it (more mess, etc), so I'm sticking with powder.   Though powdered detergent has become the "minority" (for dishwashers too) as there's a lot more liquid on the shelves in the stores.   

 

My conspiracy theory (or not) is: it costs the manufacturers <span style="text-decoration: underline;">a lot less</span> to produce and package liquid vs powder so they're doing what they can to faze out powdered detergent.

 

Just my 3 1/2 cents worth.

Kevin 

 

[sudsmaster]

Hmm. I don't know about liquids costing less to produce than powders.

I think it may cost more to package liquids - you need a water tight plastic jug or bottle, for example, whereas with a powder an ordinary cardboard box will suffice. As for ingredients, washing soda (sodium carbonate) is dirt cheap, as is the filler if any (sodium sulfate). The enzymes and optical brighteners would probably cost the same either way. The surfactant should also cost the same. I suppose the mfg of the powder might be slightly more complex, since the enzymes have to be pelletized so they don't form an dust and eat away at the consumers' lungs. Obviously dust isn't an issue with a liquid.

I suspect liquids are more common because that's what the average American household likes to buy. It can be easier to dispense, I suppose. And liquids won't have a problem dissolving in cold water. But I've yet to find a liquid that cleans away heavy dirt like a good powder.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Since using my Duet from day one, every HD detergent I've tried hasn't produced hardly a single sud, even when using a large dose, which I don't do that often. I know the water here is hard and I don't have a water softener, but I'm not sure how hard it is. I've read moderately hard. It's definitely not soft water.

 

[launderess]

Over Frothing & Miele 1065

Sudsmaster I done told you and told you, get a bottle of silicone based spray defoamer! *LOL*

As one who often uses vintage and otherwise non "HE" detergents in the Miele 1070 have soon learned never to be without defoamer. If one hears or can tell (thanks to the solid door cannot actually see inside) the washer is over frothing simply fill a cup with water, add a squirt or two of defomer,open then pour down detergent drawer. This is followed by a half kettle full of water to make sure everything is washed down. Instantly you can hear the foam clearing and the happy sounds of laundry slapping around. If things are really bad will add a squirt more defoamer as the machine fills for the first rinse as well.

Silicone based spray defoamers are not only good for knocking down suds, but keeping them at bay. This is why most all "HE" detergents contain silicone as the defoaming agent. Tide, Persil, Ariel, the lot all have the stuff.

While soap, mineral and other oils can act as defoaming agents, they cannot match the knocking and staying down power of silicone.

The only problem that can arise is if you continue the cycle depending upon how much foaming agents/surfactants/detergent is in the machine the excess froth may return. That is easily taken care of by repeating the above. Or, if in dobut simply abort the cycle once the foam has been knocked down and allow the machine to start rinsing.

If one is going to use non "HE" detergents often simply add a squirt of defoamer on top of the powdered detergent or into the liquid compartment with the liquid detergent from the start. Have used vintage Gain, Surf, Wisk, Tide, and even some rather frothy "garage" detergents with sucess this way.

 

[roscoe62]

This thread has says something more about detergents in that it need not be labeled HE or non HE but be a low sudsing detergent period, and manufactured / labelled according to water type if possible.

 

[launderess]

Well Yes There Is That

But there is also the fact that front loaders have changed over the past ten or twenty years give or take.

Leaving aside "controlled sudsing" detergents such as DASH, many vintage products able to be used in all types of washing machines. Directions for dosage were given for top loading, wringer type, twin tubs and front loading. Problem for us today is that the dosage for the latter usually stated to use enough product to bring suds 1/3 or 1/4 up the window. Today that much froth may easily trigger anti-foaming systems.

Will give you that detergents really should just leave out the foaming chemicals all together. Suds are not a good indication of cleaning power when using detergents unlike soap. However consumers,especially Amercian ones still want to see froth, why I don't know but they do.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Advancing the cycle in the W1918

I sort of stumbled on to this so long ago I have forgotten the whys and wherefores, but it is simple. Just turn the selector dial back to OFF/START and watch the lights. They will immediately start blinking for rinse. As soon as they do, turn the dial back to the program you were in. You might want to let it go through the whole cycle in the OFF position then restart in drain then restart in Rinse after a big oversudsing. I use this method to get to the final rinses (3&4) if I want two rinses with a spin in between unlike the Fine Rinse setting. I just start it at 190, then immediately turn the dial back to off, wait until the light starts flashing beside Rinses 3&4 and then turn it back on. You can even get the high speed spin unlike the 900 you get with Fine Rinse.

I love the Mieles and would not put just any detergent in them. Powder TIDE he originally had an endorsement from Miele and I found it to work in the machines just fine. I sometimes use Persil and sometimes Liquid Cheer for dark colors in cold water but I don't want to mess them up with foamy detergents.

 

[mickeyd]

For years,

I have been searching for a way to match the scent of laundry washed in Dash and Calgon. Never giving up, I bought a box of powdered Tide HE, regular scent. The smell is fabulous, and now, except for whites, I use it almost all the time. Pricey, but it is often on sale here in the big stores, it rinses well, and the smell, well, I'll say it again.... fabulous. Very low to no sudsing, but I have no front-loaders, YET!

 

 

 

[sudsmaster]

Launderess,

Actually I have a little bottle of defoamer from The Rug Doctor and that works quite well at stamping down excess suds. But in this case I didn't want to use anything on the sudsing because I wanted to see how naturally persistent it would be.

Turns out a few drains and rinses resolved the issue just fine.

Roscoe,

Actually the lesson here should be that for high temperature HE washing, a regular low sudsing detergent might cause major sudsing problems. A good HE detergent should have additives that suppress excess sudsing as the temperature increases. And I don't thing most regular detergents have such an additive or characteristic.

 

[launderess]

@sudsmaster

Ok then, that's me well told. Nevermind!

Purchased some "RinsenVac" defoamer and found it was not what one was seeking and the bottles have since sat sitting under the kitchen sink. Need to move them on somehow. Maybe find someone who cleans their carpets at home.

 

[roscoe62]

@ sudsmaster

Your point is well made and well taken, too bad manufacturers wouldn't do the same

 

[foraloysius]

I'm flabbergasted! Defoamer is actually a product in the USA? What happened to good old fabric softener as a defoamer?

 

[launderess]

All Fats and Oils Including Silicones Will Disperse Forth

Since fabric softeners are either emulsions of fats and oils nor more likely today composed of silicone, yes they will act as defoamers. However much will depend upon the make up of the product and that is where things can differ.

Spray or carpet tank defoamers are designed not only to knock down froth but keep it from coming back, something not all fabric sofeners, mineral or other oils added on their own will do. Adding oils on their own will break up the foam, but usually one has to dump the water quickly as there is no telling when or how fast the froth will return.

Years ago with our first front loader made the mistake of using an entire trial size packet of the *new* Tide HE. Well that was a huge problem as the washer at once had suds gushing from every crack and opening possible. Several rinses did nothing to kill the stuff, nor did addding FS. In a panic contacted our repair serviceman and he told me to add any sort of oil I had the kitchen. Several ounces of olive oil in a cup of water poured down into the machine did the trick, but that was the end of that.

Oh, also there is the fact many fabric softeners contain surfactants (cationic) which will do nothing to break down suds IIRC.