Horrible Apartment Bulidng Fire In UK and Exploding Refrigerators.

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launderess

launderess

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Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage
First let one say am deeply saddened and greatly affected by the Grenfell flats fire. Such a tragic loss of life that could have been easily avoided it seems.. One's heart goes out to those who have suffered grievous losses and the other victims.

Being as this may while reading local media coverage of the fire (NYT) the article mentions an exploding refrigerator (Hotpoint) as likely culprit in starting the blaze.

Am at a loss on this; how does an refrigerator "explode"? Have never heard of such a thing in all my experience. We are speaking of an electrically powered unit no?
 
Fridge coolant

I believe that when chlorofluorocarbon type coolants and their hydrochlorofluorocarbon successors were outlawed for damaging the ozone layer, butane/propane mixtures were used instead. These butane/propane mixtures are flammable.

There was some report about someone's Samsung fridge-freezer exploding, the door blew off and the kitchen was wrecked.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oded-kitchen-says-survived-kneeling-down.html
 
Exploding Refrigerators

Most refs in Europe [ 90% in Germany alone ] use butane gas as the refrigerant which is highly flammable, a leak near the red-hot defrost heater or a leak at a compressor terminal is all you need for a really good fire.

 

We are seeing the little Frigidaire refs that are built in China that have Butane in them, there are even warnings inside the freezer not to ever apply heat or use any sharp tools in the freezer section.
 
Thanks guys

Ever since events unfolded have been keenly following. Am that gob smacked that a building would be allowed to have such flammable cladding, worse that it seems everyone from local council on up to Downing Street ignored clearly what was a powder keg primed to blow.

Living in a large urban area (New York) which by nature includes many high rise buildings. ones worse fears are being stuck in when during a major fire. These fears were intensified after the horrible events of 9/11/01.

That a tall building basically went up in flames like *that*, is amazing.
 
"Ignored clearly what was a powder keg"

Indeed so.

Fire experts advised - and were ignored, or were overruled - as per usual. Probably cheaper variants were used to cut costs.

It is thoroughly shocking in this day and age, that house fires are as bad now as they were decades ago. So much for the march of progress.

The horror of the situation the victims were in, is just too awful to contemplate.
 
What was put on the outside of the building to"Pretty it up" was never meant to be used in any building that a fire department ladder truck cant reach and I am sure London has good ones that could still not reach. this cladding has a very flammable inside and when that apartment blew up the whole place went up. Maybe other parts of the world should use the R2D2 or whatever it is that runs our refrigerators now.My next door neighbor is a Fire Chief and said this would never have been allowed in the US, BUT do people skirt the law, OH YA!
 
No, that alumimum/styrofoam sandwich cladding

Isn't allowed for building facades here in USA. And any one who did so in the event of a fire or disaster such on the magnitude of what happened in UK would be sued into the ground, and that includes Alcoa or whatever it calls itself now.

Since UK court system and liability laws are different there won't any of the same "hundreds of billions" of dollars legal judgments I shouldn't wonder. More is the pity; it clearly that would be the only thing those in government and elsewhere who failed to head the warnings would understand.

We shall have to see what comes out of coroner's inquest.
 
From reading the news there are numerous buildings throughout Europe that have this type of siding on them. There was mentioned yesterday that a building in Germany was evacuated and all residents were moved to another empty building so that they could start the removal process. I think it was 76 units. They did not want residents staying in it another day. So I guess this is going to be an ongoing process. I pray that no others have to go through this and loose life.

Jon
 
BBC Scotland's evening news...

...reported that Edinburgh Napier University Halls of Residence has a similar dangerous cladding, with wood effect. These are to be replaced.

Apparently the student accommodation is owned by a third party, but maintenance repairs are done by the university. Supposedly other fire prevention measures were also fitted in this particular case.

And once again, who authorised the installation of these panels?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-40414502
 
I've been very surprised at the slow recall on some appliances that have had issues with fires.

The law suits here aren't exactly insignificant here in Ireland anyway. For example €51,244 for psychological trauma after a fire caused by a dishwasher.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.iri...her-fire-led-to-nightmares-1.2471470?mode=amp

There's been a major issue with a certain company's dryers catching fire and they have a recall and repair notice out but it's moving incredibly slowly.[this post was last edited: 6/29/2017-07:27]
 
Public housing (or Social Housing) has been a sticky touch point in politics and society since it's inception in the late 1800's. Lack of proper funding, design problems and stigmas have plagued the sector and continue all but unabated today.

The U.S. HOPE VI program in the 1990's set out to correct many of these issues with aging housing stock but other than a handful of success stories, hasn't lived up to it's own name for providing safe, habitable housing for the poor and elderly. The Section 8 program in the US provides direct housing assistance for the poor and elderly and has adopted a voucher program in an effort to clear out behemoth housing projects in major cities and shifted the residents to, in many cases, private single family homes and apartments. Instead of being able to point a finger at a tower block or neighborhood, this has dispersed the same problems across larger areas of cities and towns but hasn't cured the problem. Lack of inventory and funding have only exacerbated the underlying problems but made them less visible and offensive to the observer. It's estimated that only one in four (one quarter) of our citizens who need and would qualify for housing assistance in this country actually get the help they need. For a glimpse of the largely invisible problems faced by a shocking number of people in the US who live with housing insecurity, check out the book Evicted by Matthew Desmond (link).

One of the HOPE VI programs that tried to alleviate the housing shortage was public-private partnerships, similar to the Grenfell tower in London. Instead of creating a more efficient and cost effective solution, in many cases, it has led to the degradation of quality housing and created another layer of danger in the housing system. The same can be said of health care and education, but those are different threads of the same fabric.

Until we as a society begin to take seriously the need for proper, safe housing for our fellow human beings and recognize the value of housing security being first and foremost in our supposed "war on poverty" we will continue to marginalize the most vulnerable and least powerful among us.

http://https//www.amazon.com/Evicted-Poverty-Profit-American-City-ebook/dp/B010ZXKCAO
 
I hope they never

start building those tower blocks here again.
A NY state company made those exterior panels. Several survivors were treated for cyanide gas inhalation made by the burning panels.
They are not legal for use in the USA for any building over 40 ft. high, or where a fire truck ladder can not reach.

There was a fatal tower block fire also in south London in 2011 which killed about 11 people.
Many of those have been demolished and replaced by low rise housing.
I realize the UK had to resort to towers after the housing shortage caused by WW2.
On site concrete prefabrication is low cost.
In winter, the steel lag bolts holding them together transfers the cold to the interior walls and condenses and makes mildew, so fires aren't the only issues.
The flamable cladding was added to insulate the walls better.
In 1968, at Ronan Point in east London, a 55 year old cake decorator lit her gas stove to make her morning tea, and it exploded, tearing out the entire corner of that 16 story tower. She was thrown to her living room by the blast and survived, but residents on other floors weren't so lucky.
If you know central London, you may be familiar with the now Grade 1 listed historical Barbican estate. It's style is brutalist architecture.
Another well know tower is Trellick Tower, designed by Erno Goldfinger.
 
The biggest concern isn't the concept of social housing it's the appropriateness of British building regulations to high rise residential blocks.

The reality in the UK is high rise living is very much for exception and unlike many places, there's far less experience of it. Other than a handful of high exclusive apartment buildings in London, the only places that highrise have been used for was cheap 1960s-70s social housing.

We had limited experience and just a few examples of these kinds of blocks used for social housing in Dublin in Ireland, but they were demolished in the early 2000s and replaced with low rise and mixed developments with individual houses, terraces and smaller apartment buildings due to decades of major practical and social problems associated with the towers.

Some of the things that shocked me about Grenfell other than the cladding is the complete lack of sprinkler systems in a building that tall. It appears it only has one stairwell and one of its two entrances was closed for refurbishment.

Here's the only such development here in Ireland in 1966 (now demolished). It was put up to deal with a massive clearance of very poor quality city centre accommodation and a fairly huge social housing programme in the 1930s-70s

Interesting little patronisingly presented promo film of the Ballymun flat complex from the mid 1960s



They were very "brave new world" stuff back in their day but in general they were pretty unpleasant places to live.

*piped television (mentioned in the film) is mid 1960s irish terminology for cable TV.
the Corporation = old terminology for city council. It doesn't mean a private company as in the US.

I think though many of those buildings were built to a price and a speed and were very human-unfriendly places in reality, particularly where they were badly run.

[this post was last edited: 6/29/2017-12:44]

iej-2017062911462800496_1.jpg
 
At Least...

it was an accident and not malicious or terrorism.

I hope this doesn't entice an arsonist into targeting another building with similar cladding.

Malcolm
 
Very unlikely to happen again now that the cause is identified the cladding will all have to be replaced, regardless of cost, as otherwise the buildings would be uninsurable.
 
Ah Yes! Ballymun,

near the Dublin airport. Looks very different today, as does Divis in Belfast, where only the tower stands as senior apartments now. Oh, the "troubles".
The Divis flats were meant to improve life for poor and lower working class, but within 5 years were worse than the old back to back slum terraces it replaced.
 
I've been following the Grenfell Tower fire fairly closely, partially for professional interest.

A few things I've learned about the fire and it's rapid spread (and have opinions about):

1. It sounds like a lot of European refrigerators have flammable plastic backs rather than it being a problem of flammable gas per se.

2. The Cladding, the cladding and the cladding (or it's the cladding stupid). It was obviously flammable (and isn't allowed on the continent or in the US above 40 feet iirc) and improperly installed. There were also likely no firebreaks as specified within the installation. This was seen in Australia as well on a fire started on the exterior of a high-rise by an errant cigarette.

3. It sounds like much of the refurbishment was shoddy - poorly installed doors and rubbish in the stairs and corridors. This was an ongoing issue - I knew about this several years ago (it wasn't an exceptional building, downright ugly in fact, compared to a lot of other iconic buildings nearby) and it was no secret that the residents were angry.

4. It hasn't been made clear yet, but as there was gas service to the individual units, was it shut off when the firemen arrived (have seen no sign of this)?

5. I also suspect that there was a lot of flammable materials in the recent construction - I'd always thought that the UK was strict about that in construction, but I think they got both cheap and complacent with standards, although they are also at the forefront of improvements in fire safety in some construction scenarios. Since it appears that pretty much all the buildings that have been reclad have failed, it's a systematic national problem in the UK with construction, not just social housing or tall buildings - I've seen a lot of cheap construction for market rate buildings too - lots of plastics, etc.

6. In and of itself the single stairway isn't a problem, though probably undersized for exiting/egress (or evacuating the entire building at once). In this case it sounds like doors were propped and ill-fitting and the ventilation incorrectly designed or modified (and of course, people were evacuating via elevator - some died this way! - as someone who lives and works in elevator buildings, I know to avoid the elevator in fires).

7. I think lack of fire alarms and central smoke/fire detection system was the biggest problem - people would have gotten out quicker had they known right away rather than waiting. With the high density of residents and single stair there should have been sprinklers in the common corridors and stairs, though this could have been compromised by the insane spread lower down in the building (and a lot of the deaths probably were inhalation which stopped people from getting out - sprinklers might not have helped).

Anyways, rant over, I hope I gave at least **some** insight.
 
European refrigerators have flammable plastic backs

They do.

London Fire Brigade has a video which compares a UK model to an American fridge. The US model had a metal back plate and thus reduces the fire blaze.
The UK model went up like Roman Candle within one minute, due to the plastic.

Linked, below. Scroll down the link for the video of fridge comparison.

But remember too that the gas in the compressor is flammable. The same kind of gases found in camping stoves, portable gas fires and cigarette lighters. One of the newspaper reports in another tragic fire (Reply #6) said it was like a Bunsen burner.

Put the two together (plastic and flammable gas), and well, you're asking for trouble. That should not be allowed to happen.

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/...ole-in-fridge-freezer-safety.asp#.WVWmEoRuKM8
 
I'm very surprised

that building codes, or major appliance specs are so antiquated in the UK or EU.
I know many are sourced from Beko, a Turkish company, and Turkey isn't second or third world either.
Germany is really the surprise because they take such pride in their products and most are masterpieces in quality.
Gaggenau, Miele, Bosch, Porsche, Audi, BMW, Benz, etc.
 
I think the European regulations on fridges need to be reviewed.
There's been too much reliance on industries to self regulate and be sensible and a move away from heavy state sponsored lab testing and towards self declaration of conformity with standards. This was all a very Oro business move that only appeared in the 1990s really.

Also with regards to UK building regulations, they're all great on paper but they're very loosely inspected and there's a long history of self regulation of trades and so on.

I wouldn't be quite as surprised as you. The UK and Ireland have far, far less regulated construction and access to trades than most of the USA. A lot of regulation is assumed to work because it's assumed that people will just follow the code and a lot of professions and trades are almost entirely self regulated rather than licenced. There are inspections but they're not anything like as aggressive or as frequent as the many parts of the US.

Even electrical work was largely just self regulated until EU rules began to require proper licencing of those trades and that was transposed into local law.

It's hard to generalize about Europe because you've 28 EU members and then others and all of them approach building regulations quite differently in terms of enforcement and licencing.
 
Appliance safety

I am not convinced that the "CE" mark denotes any quality whatsoever.

I think we had much better quality when appliances were BEAB approved, and products - of all types - conformed to British Standards.

Look at the carry on with Bosch dishwashers. From what I read, the reason for the control panel printed circuit board catching fire, was because of underrated components being unable to withstand British over-voltage.

We need testing to be brought back in-house, and not to rely on other countries 'testing' the product in question. I just doesn't work.
 
Other countries testing would be absolutely fine.
The problem is CE is ****self-declaration**** and only really spot checked.

I think we need to move towards am independent lab tested version of CE.

The current regime places a hell of a lot of trust in manufacturers to do the right thing.

The issue with fridge standards needs to be dealt with by European Directive to force the fire retardant standards way up.

It's likely that fridge was in full compliance with existing regulations.
 
How does an refrigerator "explode"?

It doesn't. Thats the terminology the media uses which is incorrect. Much like every time power lines down and arc the media mistakenly calls it a "transformer explosion" Absolutely has nothing to do with a failing transformer and nothing is exploding. Same with a car that caught fire around me, the local media mistakenly reporting a "a car exploded going ablaze earlier this morning" People literally thought a bomb had exploded before the thing was a blaze.

This is exactly why our president frequently calls out the media so frequently. By lot and far just about everything the media reports is in some way shape or form obfuscated, erroneous, misrepresented or just plain untrue. Just about every expert in his field will tell you when the media does a report in his area of understanding its often inaccurate to some degree or another.

Major media outlets seek to generate revenue, and that often involves sensationalism. Reporters and journalists are not experts in the fields they are investigating or reporting on; and there is no system of accountability to make sure their work is accurate or truthful. Most are employed by networks seeking to push political agendas with heavy bias, and media outlets will often make up sources to remain interesting or relevant. I know most of you will think I am describing the coverage of big political stories, but this mod of operation stretches to everything from covering wars to weather reporting. None of it should be taken seriously, its extremely dangerous when you do.
 

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